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Carter/Richards traded (Pt. 2); Quotes: Pronger (#100); Snider (#135); Carter (#954)

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06-24-2011, 02:39 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
If you think the flyers traded their captain, their leader, one of the best two way forwards in the game, the face of the franchise, and a guy that has won everything except a cup in hockey...well you are in denial. Issues beyond what you would expect
Huh???? What are you saying????

Of course the bolded part of your statement is all the reason not to trade the guy.

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06-24-2011, 02:42 PM
  #177
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Huh???? What are you saying????

Of course the bolded part of your statement is all the reason not to trade the guy.
I corrected my post

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06-24-2011, 02:45 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
If you think the flyers traded their captain, their leader, one of the best two way forwards in the game, the face of the franchise, and a guy that has won everything except a cup in hockey...to be a scapegoat? well you are in denial. Issues beyond what you would expect
You act like they haven't done that before.

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06-24-2011, 02:47 PM
  #179
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Why is it so hard for people to understand that there were off-ice issues that were the reasons why Carter and Richards were traded?

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06-24-2011, 02:50 PM
  #180
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Why is it so hard for people to understand that there were off-ice issues that were the reasons why Carter and Richards were traded?
exactly not even just off ice issues, issues in general...

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06-24-2011, 02:56 PM
  #181
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I think people just need to take two steps back for a second. Everybody wants to be in the heat of the moment. Everybody wants to scream about how much worse we are now. But nobody actually wants to look at the entire picture. Everyone is looking at this trade in the snapshot of a one year frame. But things are not that black and white.

Yesterday morning, we were the favorites along with a handful of other teams. We were "a goalie away" from being the favorite. But that window was two years at most given the ages of Pronger, Timonen and Briere. Everybody wants to say that our window would have never closed, we would contend every year, we had a young core, Richards/Carter/JVR/Giroux will be around for 10+ years. But people truly forget about what actually made that team a Cup contender. It wasn't the high end talent that made us contenders. Pittsburgh has more high end talent. Vancouver has better high end talent. Washington has better high end talent. Tampa has better high end talent. Detroit has better high end talent. Boston, San Jose, Anaheim and Chicago all have pretty similar high end talent.

It was NOT Richards/Carter that set us apart from the rest of the league. What made us the favorites was how we built around those two players. Giroux, JVR, Hartnell, Briere, Leino, Timonen, Pronger, etc. Our supporting cast was better than that of the rest of the league. But most of those players will be gone very soon. Once they're gone, this team would have become a shell of itself. We would have been good, not elite. The structure that supported our high end talent was what made this team special, and that has not gotten worse by trading Richards and Carter. It's gotten better.

I truly believe Carter and Richards's roles on the team were diminishing. They were considered our "big name players", but with the depth movement of the past two years, their ice time had dropped and so had their points. Their importance to this team in 2011 was less than their importance to this team in 2008. With JVR and Giroux ready to become high end players, Richards and Carter became expendable.

With yesterday's trades, we still remain in contention for next season, but we also retain the ability to keep our new core foundation as well as the supporting cast around it. Both are equally important to have. One without the other doesn't cut it. We still have top quality offensive talent. The only truly irreplaceable thing that we lost was Richards's Selke worthy defensive play. But who on here wants to suggest that he had been at that level since 2008-09? We have gotten by without that two way dominance for a while whether or not anyone wants to believe it.

On paper, are our chances lower than they were 36 hours ago? Yeah, there's no denying that. But that is on paper. People need to stop looking at things in such black and white. Just because we are not a paper monster like we were before, does not make our chances lower in reality.

The more I look at these trades, the more I like it. This team has all the potential in the world to contend next year, and now they are underdogs. That's the perfect situation to be in.
Keep drinking that kool-aid. 24 hours ago we were "just a goalie away", now we're two years away. Richards and Carter were established NHL all-star players, to say their roles were diminishing is incredibly laughable. I don't give a **** how much "potential" Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds and whoever we draft today have...our team has taken a dramatic step backwards. By the time these guys pan out, and that isn't even a 100% certainty, Pronger, Timonen and Briere will be gone or be a shell of what they are currently.

This team, barring another dramatic trade or signing, will not be contending for the cup this season. Players like Richards and Carter don't grow on trees and are incredibly hard to replace. You know why we're underdogs? Because we're a team full of unproven top prospects (Grioux aside) and aging all-stars. Trading Carter and stripping Richards of the "C" could have been enough of a wake up call to the team. Trading both was an incredible overreaction by Homer and Mr. Snider. Stock piling young talent doesn't win you ****.

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06-24-2011, 02:58 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
there is so much more to this than the fans know, and will likely ever know. There were issues/problems... everyone has to stop and think about it. Teams dont just trade two stars who are still young, the captain and the cornerstones of the team who were signed to long term deals just because they think a new direction is needed. It is very upsetting to think what was/must have been going on, for the organization to just part ways with two stars who's jerseys should have some day been hanging from the rafters in philadelphia. It became far too detrimental in the end,and a change was needed for the flyers and for the two players. Hopefully it all works out in the end.

I have always been a diehard flyer fan, and from the moment richards was drafted he was my favourite flyer. I would be brought to hysteria if the flyers ever won the cup, but over the past 6 years, the ups and downs and controvery surrounding these guys I always felt it would be that much more special when Richie lifted that cup over his head with the "C" on his jersey proving he would be the guy to finally get the job done for the team, the organization, the city, and the fans. But now that dream will die, just like his presence within the walls of the WFC.


....If the flyers won the cup next year I would be consumed with joy, but I think it would also be bittersweet not being able to share it with one of the true flyers to ever put on the jersey.
So are you making **** up or are you part of the organization? Cause it seems to me you're making a lot of accusations albeit without saying anything.

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06-24-2011, 03:01 PM
  #183
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So are you making **** up or are you part of the organization? Cause it seems to me you're making a lot of accusations albeit without saying anything.
I started a post called inside info that was quickly shut down. I will say this... there were problems much worse than just locker room spats, and tension between teammates. A big enough problem to trade your 2 stars

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06-24-2011, 03:03 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
I started a post called inside info that was quickly shut down. I will say this... there were problems much worse than just locker room spats, and tension between teammates. A big enough problem to trade your 2 stars
And I'll repeat, you know this how?

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06-24-2011, 03:04 PM
  #185
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The "Stars" of the East are now licking their chops when they face the Flyers sans the two-way play of Richards AND Carter. While I do believe that Giroux will be an amazing player in this league, he can't hold a flame to the torch of Richards or Carter in his own end.

If you think Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin/Stamkos went off against the Flyers over the past 6 years when they had to deal with either the Richards or Carter line on 90% of their shifts on the road and 75% of their shifts at home, just wait until the HBL line is forced to be on the ice due to riding JVR-Giroux-Voracek for 25min a night or against the "shut-down" stallwarts Versteeg or Betts or Powe or random 3rd line center FA.

Obviously HF deals with prospects and over-values the "future", but Carter and Richards are a sure thing at 50-70 points (and could potentially hit PPG levels because they are only 26 years old) for most of the rest of their contracts while Simmonds, Shenn and Voracek will hopefully, maybe, possibly consistently eclipse those someday...within the next three years. While I agree the 8th pick will be very valuable in reloading the squad (Dougie would be a nice prospect), Don't count your chickens before they hatch, what if JVR doesn't continue his hot-streak from the '11 playoffs and doesn't score through the first 20 games again? What if Giroux can't handle drawing the top defensive match-ups night in and night out over 82+playoffs? What if Briere can't match his career high in goals from '11? Hopefully, for the Flyers sake, these legitimate challenges are undertaken with extraordinary seriousness and the players come to camp ready to compete every single night.

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06-24-2011, 03:06 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
I started a post called inside info that was quickly shut down. I will say this... there were problems much worse than just locker room spats, and tension between teammates. A big enough problem to trade your 2 stars
did it have anything to do with Costa Rica

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06-24-2011, 03:08 PM
  #187
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And I'll repeat, you know this how?
From inside the organization... "a source"

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06-24-2011, 03:12 PM
  #188
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Keep drinking that kool-aid. 24 hours ago we were "just a goalie away", now we're two years away. Richards and Carter were established NHL all-star players, to say their roles were diminishing is incredibly laughable. I don't give a **** how much "potential" Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds and whoever we draft today have...our team has taken a dramatic step backwards. By the time these guys pan out, and that isn't even a 100% certainty, Pronger, Timonen and Briere will be gone or be a shell of what they are currently.

This team, barring another dramatic trade or signing, will not be contending for the cup this season. Players like Richards and Carter don't grow on trees and are incredibly hard to replace. You know why we're underdogs? Because we're a team full of unproven top prospects (Grioux aside) and aging all-stars. Trading Carter and stripping Richards of the "C" could have been enough of a wake up call to the team. Trading both was an incredible overreaction by Homer and Mr. Snider. Stock piling young talent doesn't win you ****.
Just a goalie away from what exactly? Being handed the Stanley Cup?

No, we were just a goalie away from being the undisputed favorites for the Cup. BIG difference.

I couldnt give a **** less who the favorites are. What the paper roster is means absolutely ZERO in my mind. I know that the roster we have at the current moment IS capable of winning a Stanley Cup. On paper our "chances" are not as good, but that means absolutely nothing. Teams dont win Cups on paper.

As for Richards and Carter being established stars, yes, they were fantastic players. But they had not been playing to their potential since 2009, and the team managed to make a SCF finals run and won the division the next year. With the emergence of Giroux and JVR, their roles had diminished. Fact, not an opinion.

I love Richards and Carter as much as the next Flyers fan, but if you think that this team is doomed because they are no longer here, than I dont know what to tell you. This team has every bit as much potential as it had yesterday. All it needs is for the right pieces to step up at the right time. That same logic would have applied 36 hours ago also.

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06-24-2011, 03:16 PM
  #189
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So are you making **** up or are you part of the organization? Cause it seems to me you're making a lot of accusations albeit without saying anything.
I generally despise speculation, particularly from a single game, a shift or some nuanced words in an interview. However, all I can feel is sad that there's no other explanation for trading both Carter and Richards but that it had to be done. Carter brought a good return, but I believe the handshake agreement would have been sufficient had there been no reason to do otherwise. Carter's cap hit was very good for a player of his production and two-way play.

Then Richards ... as good as Schenn and Simmonds are, I can't see this as a hockey-only move. I can't. A Selke-calibre captain who epitomizes what the Flyers organization is all about just isn't traded from a legitimate Cup-competing team for emerging young players.

I hate that this all lends credence to the Richards-vs-Pronger crap that has been flying almost a week after Pronger came to Philadelphia. I hate that this sullies the so-recent memory of a team that was a goal and a game from the Stanley Cup, then led the entire league for most of last season.

I do have to add my acknowledgement to Renegade and others who were proven right. I put no stock in your rumours, and was so wrong in doing so. I hope your vindication, though, is tempered by a shared feeling that this team we follow is one in deep turmoil.

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06-24-2011, 03:18 PM
  #190
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Holmgren did indeed start to choke up re: moving Richards and Carter away.
That was me using the Force.


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06-24-2011, 03:28 PM
  #191
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I generally despise speculation, particularly from a single game, a shift or some nuanced words in an interview. However, all I can feel is sad that there's no other explanation for trading both Carter and Richards but that it had to be done. Carter brought a good return, but I believe the handshake agreement would have been sufficient had there been no reason to do otherwise. Carter's cap hit was very good for a player of his production and two-way play.

Then Richards ... as good as Schenn and Simmonds are, I can't see this as a hockey-only move. I can't. A Selke-calibre captain who epitomizes what the Flyers organization is all about just isn't traded from a legitimate Cup-competing team for emerging young players.
I hate that this all lends credence to the Richards-vs-Pronger crap that has been flying almost a week after Pronger came to Philadelphia. I hate that this sullies the so-recent memory of a team that was a goal and a game from the Stanley Cup, then led the entire league for most of last season.

I do have to add my acknowledgement to Renegade and others who were proven right. I put no stock in your rumours, and was so wrong in doing so. I hope your vindication, though, is tempered by a shared feeling that this team we follow is one in deep turmoil.
You hit the nail on the head... noone wants to look further and think deeper into what must really be going on. It is very sad to think about, and honestly I have felt sick to my stomach since I heard the news. People can say it was because of pronger feuds, coaching feuds, failure to win a cup, a hockey move, but is that truly believable.One of the reasons everyone is so upset and finding it hard to move past this is because deep down they know something had to be going on, and likely there will never be any closure.

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06-24-2011, 03:30 PM
  #192
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From inside the organization... "a source"
PM your source to a mod and get it "approved."

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06-24-2011, 03:34 PM
  #193
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PM your source to a mod and get it "approved."
For what reason I will still have people who will never believe me and say I am just some guy making things up, and there will also be the people who are open minded and truly think about what must have made this happen....I have no reason to try to convince anyone, I just want the to try to give a tiny bit of insight to true fans like myself who have emotional attachment to the team, and want some sort of answer as to why this happened

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06-24-2011, 03:38 PM
  #194
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I think the reason this is so upsetting is because no one knows the reason why. Okay, there were some kind of off ice issues supposedly. I would feel better if I knew what the problem was and could possibly then agree with the decision rather than my and a lot of fans favorite player and face of the Flyers all of a sudden be shipped off with everyone pretending like nothing happened and well never find out. Thats hard to swallow. Just saying that "there were issues" (and that much hasnt even been said officially) isnt enough for me.

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06-24-2011, 03:41 PM
  #195
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Some people like to keep issues in house! Flyers are a class act and maybe they dont want to leave Richards and Carter out to dry

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06-24-2011, 03:41 PM
  #196
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I think the reason this is so upsetting is because no one knows the reason why. Okay, there were some kind of off ice issues supposedly. I would feel better if I knew what the problem was and could possibly then agree with the decision rather than my and a lot of fans favorite player and face of the Flyers all of a sudden be shipped off with everyone pretending like nothing happened and well never find out. Thats hard to swallow. Just saying that "there were issues" (and that much hasnt even been said officially) isnt enough for me.
I dont think its ever going to be told to you. Just think about how things went for the team, how players looked on the ice. I know it is a bitter pill to swallow and maybe it is best for fans just to acknowledge that there were things going on that were serious enough to just trade away the cornerstones of your franchise.

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06-24-2011, 03:44 PM
  #197
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Some people like to keep issues in house! Flyers are a class act and maybe they dont want to leave Richards and Carter out to dry
You are exactly right, I have pm a few people the little that I know which is pretty telling but I am not going to be telling anyone else, I respect those two guys and thats that. The flyers are a complete class organization, and they and all the fans should and will have nothing but respect for those two guys.


18 "c" and 17 should have been hanging from the rafters in 15 years beside some stanley cup banners.... sad...

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06-24-2011, 03:44 PM
  #198
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And I'll repeat, you know this how?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
From inside the organization... "a source"
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
For what reason I will still have people who will never believe me and say I am just some guy making things up, and there will also be the people who are open minded and truly think about what must have made this happen....I have no reason to try to convince anyone, I just want the to try to give a tiny bit of insight to true fans like myself who have emotional attachment to the team, and want some sort of answer as to why this happened
OC28, pm me at your convenience -- please and thank you.

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06-24-2011, 03:47 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by ONTHEFLYGUY View Post
Some people like to keep issues in house! Flyers are a class act and maybe they dont want to leave Richards and Carter out to dry
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
I dont think its ever going to be told to you. Just think about how things went for the team, how players looked on the ice. I know it is a bitter pill to swallow and maybe it is best for fans just to acknowledge that there were things going on that were serious enough to just trade away the cornerstones of your franchise.
Good points. Im sure Ill get over it and well all move on eventually. Its just such a damn shame.

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06-24-2011, 03:50 PM
  #200
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You are exactly right, I have pm a few people the little that I know which is pretty telling but I am not going to be telling anyone else, I respect those two guys and thats that. The flyers are a complete class organization, and they and all the fans should and will have nothing but respect for those two guys.


18 "c" and 17 should have been hanging from the rafters in 15 years beside some stanley cup banners.... sad...
Brind'amour
Lindros (manly when they tried to force him on a plane with a collapsed lung)
Neilson
Gagne
Richards
Carter

Class isn't the word I would use to describe how this organization has treated those guys

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