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Carter/Richards traded (Pt. 2); Quotes: Pronger (#100); Snider (#135); Carter (#954)

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06-24-2011, 04:51 PM
  #201
Unstable
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I think people just need to take two steps back for a second. Everybody wants to be in the heat of the moment. Everybody wants to scream about how much worse we are now. But nobody actually wants to look at the entire picture. Everyone is looking at this trade in the snapshot of a one year frame. But things are not that black and white.

Yesterday morning, we were the favorites along with a handful of other teams. We were "a goalie away" from being the favorite. But that window was two years at most given the ages of Pronger, Timonen and Briere. Everybody wants to say that our window would have never closed, we would contend every year, we had a young core, Richards/Carter/JVR/Giroux will be around for 10+ years. But people truly forget about what actually made that team a Cup contender. It wasn't the high end talent that made us contenders. Pittsburgh has more high end talent. Vancouver has better high end talent. Washington has better high end talent. Tampa has better high end talent. Detroit has better high end talent. Boston, San Jose, Anaheim and Chicago all have pretty similar high end talent.

It was NOT Richards/Carter that set us apart from the rest of the league. What made us the favorites was how we built around those two players. Giroux, JVR, Hartnell, Briere, Leino, Timonen, Pronger, etc. Our supporting cast was better than that of the rest of the league. But most of those players will be gone very soon. Once they're gone, this team would have become a shell of itself. We would have been good, not elite. The structure that supported our high end talent was what made this team special, and that has not gotten worse by trading Richards and Carter. It's gotten better.

I truly believe Carter and Richards's roles on the team were diminishing. They were considered our "big name players", but with the depth movement of the past two years, their ice time had dropped and so had their points. Their importance to this team in 2011 was less than their importance to this team in 2008. With JVR and Giroux ready to become high end players, Richards and Carter became expendable.

With yesterday's trades, we still remain in contention for next season, but we also retain the ability to keep our new core foundation as well as the supporting cast around it. Both are equally important to have. One without the other doesn't cut it. We still have top quality offensive talent. The only truly irreplaceable thing that we lost was Richards's Selke worthy defensive play. But who on here wants to suggest that he had been at that level since 2008-09? We have gotten by without that two way dominance for a while whether or not anyone wants to believe it.

On paper, are our chances lower than they were 36 hours ago? Yeah, there's no denying that. But that is on paper. People need to stop looking at things in such black and white. Just because we are not a paper monster like we were before, does not make our chances lower in reality.

The more I look at these trades, the more I like it. This team has all the potential in the world to contend next year, and now they are underdogs. That's the perfect situation to be in.
It's not a "perfect" situation by any means, but other than that bit of hyperbole there's a lot of good sense here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
In that same recent timeframe, absolutely....as well as coaches.

Up until about the mid 90s, they were known as one of the classiest organizations in the league....a lot has changed

That old, wrinkly, grumpy ******* Snider needs to go away.....
Totally disagree with you about the coaches, I especially think Stevens was not getting it done at all.

But I agree that this is clearly Snider's team. Whether or not he sort of flipped out on us here, I, for one, will forever be thankful for all he has done for the city, and for me personally as a fan. Even if he did bring the curse of Sarah Palin upon us.

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06-24-2011, 04:53 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
The "Stars" of the East are now licking their chops when they face the Flyers sans the two-way play of Richards AND Carter. While I do believe that Giroux will be an amazing player in this league, he can't hold a flame to the torch of Richards or Carter in his own end.
You really think Carter is better defensively than Giroux?

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06-24-2011, 04:55 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
You really think Carter is better defensively than Giroux?
Carter is absolutely better defensively than Giroux.

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06-24-2011, 05:00 PM
  #204
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Giroux is a better hitter, but Carter is a much better face-off man, better positionally, a better skater, and has a longer reach. Carter is easily better than Giroux in his own end, and that really isn't a slight to Giroux.

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06-24-2011, 05:00 PM
  #205
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I could be misremembering, it feels like the season was years ago.

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06-24-2011, 05:15 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I generally despise speculation, particularly from a single game, a shift or some nuanced words in an interview. However, all I can feel is sad that there's no other explanation for trading both Carter and Richards but that it had to be done. Carter brought a good return, but I believe the handshake agreement would have been sufficient had there been no reason to do otherwise. Carter's cap hit was very good for a player of his production and two-way play.

Then Richards ... as good as Schenn and Simmonds are, I can't see this as a hockey-only move. I can't. A Selke-calibre captain who epitomizes what the Flyers organization is all about just isn't traded from a legitimate Cup-competing team for emerging young players.

I hate that this all lends credence to the Richards-vs-Pronger crap that has been flying almost a week after Pronger came to Philadelphia. I hate that this sullies the so-recent memory of a team that was a goal and a game from the Stanley Cup, then led the entire league for most of last season.

I do have to add my acknowledgement to Renegade and others who were proven right. I put no stock in your rumours, and was so wrong in doing so. I hope your vindication, though, is tempered by a shared feeling that this team we follow is one in deep turmoil.
I feel the same way. Even though the return we got for Richards isn't exactly bad, there is no reason for us to do that trade in the position we were unless there's been other things going on, whatever that might be.

At the same time, as mikedifr has stated several times now, the team that traded for Richards is pretty much Flyers West and they wouldn't deal for him if those issues were significant enough. I loved the trade we made for Pronger because it really showed we meant business and it's not often a player of his caliber becomes available, but if it turns out that it in the end made us deal Richards and Carter... I don't know. I think Pronger can be a bit like Roy Keane (former player for Manchester United), one of the greatest player in the game and with a fierce determination to win that makes him drive and push his teammates a bit too hard sometimes. Also, they both have done some bat**** insane violent things against opponents when snapping.

Sorry, if I'm rambling. It's Midsummer Night's Eve and I'm not completely sober here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Giroux is a better hitter, but Carter is a much better face-off man, better positionally, a better skater, and has a longer reach. Carter is easily better than Giroux in his own end, and that really isn't a slight to Giroux.
Yeah, Giroux is not a bad defensive player, but after Richards, Carter was our most reliable guy defensively in 5v5 play.

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06-24-2011, 05:16 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
You really think Carter is better defensively than Giroux?
People need to disabuse themselves of the belief that Giroux is good defensively. He is an undersized guy that uses a small stick to boot. He also cheats a bit on offense.

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06-24-2011, 05:18 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
People need to disabuse themselves of the belief that Giroux is good defensively. He is an undersized guy that uses a small stick to boot. He also cheats a bit on offense.
He is much better defensively than you give him credit for.

Size isn't the only thing that matters.

That said, Carter and Richards were both better on D, without question.

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06-24-2011, 05:19 PM
  #209
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Schenn will be on WIP tonight at some point.

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06-24-2011, 05:22 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
He is much better defensively than you give him credit for.

Size isn't the only thing that matters.

That said, Carter and Richards were both better on D, without question.
Well he should stop getting scored on so much to prove it.

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06-24-2011, 05:24 PM
  #211
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Actually pretty bummed to read about what kind of guys Carter and Richards were off the ice. Everyone is entitled to do what they wish off the ice and that is their privilige and I am no angle myself, but man.

I don't usually buy into that gossip falderal, but reading that Dobber site (they have the guy who put signing Ilya, trading Carter, and trading Richards out there back in May. He also called the almost exact deals hours before they happened so he knows someone VERY close to the situation) and I have every reason to believe the reasons why he was told Snider was adamant in moving Carter and Richards. Pretty disappointing to read those things, but it helps me get on board with the moves to a point where I am very comfortable now with whatever it is we are doing.

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06-24-2011, 05:30 PM
  #212
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^ can you post a link dude?

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06-24-2011, 05:30 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipadelphia View Post
Actually pretty bummed to read about what kind of guys Carter and Richards were off the ice. Everyone is entitled to do what they wish off the ice and that is their privilige and I am no angle myself, but man.

I don't usually buy into that gossip falderal, but reading that Dobber site (they have the guy who put signing Ilya, trading Carter, and trading Richards out there back in May. He also called the almost exact deals hours before they happened so he knows someone VERY close to the situation) and I have every reason to believe the reasons why he was told Snider was adamant in moving Carter and Richards. Pretty disappointing to read those things, but it helps me get on board with the moves to a point where I am very comfortable now with whatever it is we are doing.
agreed. That thread was something else. Although i feel like there were many ways to deal with those issues other than trading the players. I feel like management feared they would be bad influences on Giroux and JVR and any other young player on the team.

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06-24-2011, 05:31 PM
  #214
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Giroux is good at takeaways as he can be really hungry for the puck. But he is not there positionally or anything yet

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06-24-2011, 05:33 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
^ can you post a link dude?
It'll just be deleted because it's unsubstantiated by actual media sources, as site rules require.

Perhaps he will PM you the link though.

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06-24-2011, 05:46 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Brind'amour
Don't know the whole story on why he was dealt

Quote:
Lindros (manly when they tried to force him on a plane with a collapsed lung)
Lindross wasn't exactly a saint when it comes with how he dealt with the organization.

Quote:
Neilson
Don't know how accurate this is, but wikipedia said that doctors told the Flyers that he no longer had the strength to coach and Nielson later said Clarke made the right move.

Quote:
Gagne
It's a business. He had a huge cap hit for an aging injury prone player on the down swing. It sucked because he was a lifer, but you can't put one player in the front of the team because he is a fan favorite and has been there a long time

Quote:
Richards
Carter
This I agree with that it wasn't exactly fair to them. I don't think it lacked class, but it certainly was not really fair to them. They signed those contracts and probably gave a discount because of the length and to stay here for life. Snider/Homer kind of screwed them on that deal.

Quote:
Class isn't the word I would use to describe how this organization has treated those guys
Seems to me like there have been a handful of incidents over the years where guys were dealt who had deep ties to the organization. That doesn't necessarily mean it is classless. In the end, it is a business and holding on to a player just because he has been here a while is not really a smart move. Ask Lappy, Cote, Hatcher, Stevens, and other players who have stuck around after their playing days if this organization is classless.

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06-24-2011, 06:00 PM
  #217
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Flyers fans overrate Giroux substantially.

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06-24-2011, 06:06 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Cannon View Post
Flyers fans overrate Giroux substantially.
And underrate his defensive skills.

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06-24-2011, 06:08 PM
  #219
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Thanks for the link guys.

So we are in the hunt for Cole and Bogosian. Interesting.

Stamkos rumours are false too

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06-24-2011, 06:14 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
And underrate his defensive skills.
No, right now is solely average defensively. He isn't a Briere liability, but he is not a defensive stud like most here seem to think. I think he will continue to get better at D and will be fine, but he is not better than Carter or Richards yet

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06-24-2011, 06:14 PM
  #221
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more and more will likely leak out, and it is all rather upsetting and disturbing

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06-24-2011, 06:15 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well he should stop getting scored on so much to prove it.
Might wanna check his GAON/60. It's a little less than Richards'. Granted his QUALCOMP is easier, but still.


He's clearly not bad defensively. Richards/Carter are clearly better, but Giroux really isn't bad.

Edited: did a really quick lookup and grabbed #'s from the wrong place.


Last edited by infidelappel*: 06-24-2011 at 06:24 PM.
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06-24-2011, 06:17 PM
  #223
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Honestly, maybe more will come out about the situation, but from what I have heard, which is still all rumors, I'm still dissapointed in the way this organization handled the situation

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06-24-2011, 06:22 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Honestly, maybe more will come out about the situation, but from what I have heard, which is still all rumors, I'm still dissapointed in the way this organization handled the situation
I am actually quite impressed, noone from the organization has come out and said anything public(which must be hard because they know their entire fanbase was shocked and was hungry for answers) they are just moving forward and wishing those guys well. There are obviously leaks, and people will start to slowly figure things out, but that is uncontrolled.

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06-24-2011, 06:26 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
I am actually quite impressed, noone from the organization has come out and said anything public(which must be hard because they know their entire fanbase was shocked and was hungry for answers) they are just moving forward and wishing those guys well. There are obviously leaks, and people will start to slowly figure things out, but that is uncontrolled.
Dude, get over yourself, seriously.

You have a source. We get it.

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