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Old
06-29-2011, 04:44 PM
  #51
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by Revo View Post
He'll no doubt have to adapt to some extent, but Patrick Roy's system is made to let skilled players express their talent, it's not the boring grinding style that's slowly taking over.
If he ends up with Patrick Roy, that might be the best possible outcome for him. Aleksandr Radulov flourished under Roy, and led the QMJL in goals and total points.

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06-30-2011, 03:16 AM
  #52
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Going to the CHL is definitely a step backwards. Regarding Roy, I'm not sure. Radulov in my opinion progressed way more in the KHL, than there, when he was just back in Russia he was just putting the puck in the corners, now he is a truly complete player, he's twice the player he was in the NHL. Roy also had the Bashkirovs and Kugryshev, and we know how they ended up...

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06-30-2011, 04:26 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Going to the CHL is definitely a step backwards. Regarding Roy, I'm not sure. Radulov in my opinion progressed way more in the KHL, than there, when he was just back in Russia he was just putting the puck in the corners, now he is a truly complete player, he's twice the player he was in the NHL. Roy also had the Bashkirovs and Kugryshev, and we know how they ended up...
This is correct.

There is a basic rule that every Russian going to the CHL is going to regress and it is basically an idiocy to go there. Too bad most of the best young Russian players seem to be idiots these days.

Russia already lost most of the 1990-1992 generation (minus Kuznetsov and Tarasenko) because of CHL. The 1993-1994 generations are under a big threat now. Russia may lose them as well. How many more generations Russia must lose before these kids, their agents and their parents SLOWLY start to realize this?

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06-30-2011, 05:39 AM
  #54
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
This is correct.

There is a basic rule that every Russian going to the CHL is going to regress and it is basically an idiocy to go there. Too bad most of the best young Russian players seem to be idiots these days.

Russia already lost most of the 1990-1992 generation (minus Kuznetsov and Tarasenko) because of CHL. The 1993-1994 generations are under a big threat now. Russia may lose them as well. How many more generations Russia must lose before these kids, their agents and their parents SLOWLY start to realize this?
Well, here I don't agree (I talk about your phrase about 1990-92 generation). Our 1991 is World Champion and there only 1 player was from CHL (Bobkov), and we could have also Burmistrov.

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06-30-2011, 07:32 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Going to the CHL is definitely a step backwards. Regarding Roy, I'm not sure. Radulov in my opinion progressed way more in the KHL, than there, when he was just back in Russia he was just putting the puck in the corners, now he is a truly complete player, he's twice the player he was in the NHL. Roy also had the Bashkirovs and Kugryshev, and we know how they ended up...
Good points! There are so many players who went to the CHL with big dreams, and in most cases, big talents, and when you stop and think, it is hard to come up with a single name of a player who ever succeeded. I guess I thought Radulov might be one example to concede, but on second thought, you are correct in saying that he is a much better player now than he was in Nashville.

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06-30-2011, 08:00 AM
  #56
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I agree that Russians (Europeans) who can not make an MHL/KHL/Elitserien team to go to CHL. But I dont agree when guys of Grigorenko´s caliber go there. IMO he, Gusev, Kucherov have great chance to play regularly in KHL next season.

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06-30-2011, 08:57 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Good points! There are so many players who went to the CHL with big dreams, and in most cases, big talents, and when you stop and think, it is hard to come up with a single name of a player who ever succeeded. I guess I thought Radulov might be one example to concede, but on second thought, you are correct in saying that he is a much better player now than he was in Nashville.
This is a little bit of a myth. Radulov scored 58 points in his second season with Nashville and was certainly projecting towards being a superstar. He may have developed other dimensions to his game but it's unjust to say the KHL made him.

It's a shame so many players are going to the CHL. Looking at the Swedish record of players recently and historically, they stay at home and seem to be doing very well. The KHL does not have the player development pedigree that the SEL has though. As much as i am against Russian players going to the CHL in one sense, calling them idiots for doing so is inaccurate. I can see the appeal very much. Increased draft status and playing time. Many of the 90-92 generation wern't exactly guaranteed ice time with their respective clubs and so the CHL becomes attractive. Players like Petrov, Kitsyn etc have struggled to really thrive. Some blame must be on their shoulders but it is very apparent that ice time and thus development is much harder to come by in Russia than in Sweden for example, where underage players are seemingly becoming more and more involved. The MHL is clearly trying to change this, but is a rather useless tool for some of the older 90's and 89 generations etc.

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06-30-2011, 09:54 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I agree that Russians (Europeans) who can not make an MHL/KHL/Elitserien team to go to CHL. But I dont agree when guys of Grigorenko´s caliber go there. IMO he, Gusev, Kucherov have great chance to play regularly in KHL next season.
I agree with that completely!

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06-30-2011, 10:16 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
I agree with that completely!
thx

read this and this

I hope he will stay at home. Like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko, Orlov. And I read somewhere that CHL league where he was drafted is weakest one... so why to go there when you can be a leader in MHL and play KHL?

I dont know how politics CSKA has. I know that they have great guys born 1995 (Tolchicky, etc). So some of them can play in MHL next season (for exception). And best elder one (born 92, 93) can play KHL regularly. - Gusev, Marchenko, Kucherov, maybe Grigorenko.

Grigorenko MUST stay at home to be an example for these 95´guys (like Kuznetsov is in Traktor for Schalunov, Nesterov) Am I right? These 95´guys have to see that they can make KHL if they are good enough.

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06-30-2011, 11:08 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
thx

read this and this

I hope he will stay at home. Like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko, Orlov. And I read somewhere that CHL league where he was drafted is weakest one... so why to go there when you can be a leader in MHL and play KHL?

I dont know how politics CSKA has. I know that they have great guys born 1995 (Tolchicky, etc). So some of them can play in MHL next season (for exception). And best elder one (born 92, 93) can play KHL regularly. - Gusev, Marchenko, Kucherov, maybe Grigorenko.

Grigorenko MUST stay at home to be an example for these 95´guys (like Kuznetsov is in Traktor for Schalunov, Nesterov) Am I right? These 95´guys have to see that they can make KHL if they are good enough.
The kids have a right to go where they want, but to succeed, it is critical for the MHL to convince these kids to stay home. Otherwise, it will be the same problem that the RSL had in the '90's and 2000 decade, if a player is really good, then he is gone to the NHL. The MHL has to improve the caliber of play enough to convince the kids that experience at home is just as good as abroad.

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06-30-2011, 12:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Going to the CHL is definitely a step backwards. Regarding Roy, I'm not sure. Radulov in my opinion progressed way more in the KHL, than there, when he was just back in Russia he was just putting the puck in the corners, now he is a truly complete player, he's twice the player he was in the NHL.
If you think Radulov was dumping the puck in the corners when he was playing for the Remparts, you better give your head a shake.

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06-30-2011, 04:00 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Lucky Luke View Post
If you think Radulov was dumping the puck in the corners when he was playing for the Remparts, you better give your head a shake.
Read better my post

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07-01-2011, 06:02 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
This is correct.

There is a basic rule that every Russian going to the CHL is going to regress and it is basically an idiocy to go there. Too bad most of the best young Russian players seem to be idiots these days.

Russia already lost most of the 1990-1992 generation (minus Kuznetsov and Tarasenko) because of CHL. The 1993-1994 generations are under a big threat now. Russia may lose them as well. How many more generations Russia must lose before these kids, their agents and their parents SLOWLY start to realize this?
your posts are like good old music


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07-01-2011, 06:07 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Going to the CHL is definitely a step backwards. Regarding Roy, I'm not sure. Radulov in my opinion progressed way more in the KHL, than there, when he was just back in Russia he was just putting the puck in the corners, now he is a truly complete player, he's twice the player he was in the NHL. Roy also had the Bashkirovs and Kugryshev, and we know how they ended up...
he is talented player and very eager to be best so obviously he has progressed well and currently he is one of the best players on the world, but CHL gave him a good start to be a good hockeyplayer.
NB: i personally hope that Grigorenko stays in Russia for 1-2 another years but not more if he likes to be in NHL.

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07-01-2011, 07:52 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
he is talented player and very eager to be best so obviously he has progressed well and currently he is one of the best players on the world, but CHL gave him a good start to be a good hockeyplayer.
NB: i personally hope that Grigorenko stays in Russia for 1-2 another years but not more if he likes to be in NHL.
It sounds more like he is not absolutely committed to going to the CHL, so maybe he is using this speculation as bargaining chips with CSKA to get a greater commitment toward more playing time in the KHL. I hope that is true. If he does go to Canada, the QMJL is probably the best league for him, because it is noted for playing more wide open, offensive hockey than the other leagues.

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07-01-2011, 10:02 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
It sounds more like he is not absolutely committed to going to the CHL, so maybe he is using this speculation as bargaining chips with CSKA to get a greater commitment toward more playing time in the KHL. I hope that is true. If he does go to Canada, the QMJL is probably the best league for him, because it is noted for playing more wide open, offensive hockey than the other leagues.
he's going, no barg, chips - he's officially going, which is a mistake for his development on the ice, but a good thing for his draft position.

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07-01-2011, 10:37 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
he's going, no barg, chips - he's officially going, which is a mistake for his development on the ice, but a good thing for his draft position.
If he mucks and grinds and proves that he is willing to smash someone's head in, I could see him going as high as the second round, which is very high for a Russian these days. Otherwise, no lower than the third round.

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07-01-2011, 02:09 PM
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If he mucks and grinds and proves that he is willing to smash someone's head in, I could see him going as high as the second round, which is very high for a Russian these days. Otherwise, no lower than the third round.
I'm being facetious, of course. But he will have to learn to play more physical hockey, and NHL owners are reluctant to use high draft picks on Russians because they may decide to go back to the KHL.

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07-01-2011, 03:18 PM
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he's going, no barg, chips - he's officially going, which is a mistake for his development on the ice, but a good thing for his draft position.
This is very heart breaking.

Russia just lost Grigorenko and Grigorenko lost an opportunity to become one of the best players in the world.

Any good players in the 1995 age group that we can get excited about for a year or two before they destroy their careers by going to CHL?

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07-01-2011, 10:50 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
This is very heart breaking.

Russia just lost Grigorenko and Grigorenko lost an opportunity to become one of the best players in the world.

Any good players in the 1995 age group that we can get excited about for a year or two before they destroy their careers by going to CHL?

95 supposed to be the best generation yet - 2/3 of cska and 1/2 of Dynamo, plus Nichushkin from chelyabinsk

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07-02-2011, 04:49 AM
  #71
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95 supposed to be the best generation yet - 2/3 of cska and 1/2 of Dynamo, plus Nichushkin from chelyabinsk
It doesn't matter how good they are now. They will nonetheless be ruined before they turn 20.

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07-02-2011, 11:10 AM
  #72
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It doesn't matter how good they are now. They will nonetheless be ruined before they turn 20.
Since these kids always think they are the ones who will beat the odds and successfully swim upstream, I think the MHL has to come up with new ways to induce them to stay. Some can be positive (whatever compensation or other material attractions are legal), some can be negative (clear-cut preference toward MHL kids over CHL kids in international competitions). The latter might have the beneficial effect of giving kids who are on the fence an incentive to stay with the MHL. The MHL has to do whatever it can to protect its best interests.

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07-02-2011, 12:35 PM
  #73
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Since these kids always think they are the ones who will beat the odds and successfully swim upstream,
Why do they do this? Why can't they just follow the footsteps of Malkin, Ovechkin and Kuznetsov? They turned out well (before the North American effect started to regress both Malkin and Ovechkin).

We are not talking about a borderline player here. We are talking about the best prospect Russia has produced since Malkin and Radulov. Grigorenko is that good.

It would be a travesty if the CHL is allowed to ruin this great player. And he will be ruined if he goes there!

Russian hockey really cannot afford to lose players like Grigorenko to the CHL. These types of transactions will have severe consequences for the future of Russian hockey.

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07-02-2011, 01:06 PM
  #74
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Why do they do this? Why can't they just follow the footsteps of Malkin, Ovechkin and Kuznetsov? They turned out well (before the North American effect started to regress both Malkin and Ovechkin).
It's simple. It's a consequence of not having a transfer agreement.

MHL kids are being ignored by the NHL. Even great talents developed in KHL are slipping in the draft.

These kids want to play in the NHL and see (or more likely their agents view..$$$$) the CHL as the quickest way to achieve that.

Unfortunately, people do not look at the big picture.

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07-02-2011, 01:12 PM
  #75
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It's simple. It's a consequence of not having a transfer agreement.

MHL kids are being ignored by the NHL. Even great talents developed in KHL are slipping in the draft.

These kids want to play in the NHL and see (or more likely their agents view..$$$$) the CHL as the quickest way to achieve that.

Unfortunately, people do not look at the big picture.
Sweden and Finland seem to be different than Russia. There is not an exodus of best hockey talent from Sweden and Finland to the CHL.

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