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Nikita Filatov to Ottawa for a 3rd Round Pick

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Old
06-28-2011, 02:30 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Sioux4Life View Post
The leadership has to be able to get along with anyone.
I'm not going to bother reading past this, because I feel it's utterly, utterly wrong. A leader needs to be able to recognize when a player, no matter their "talent," does more harm than good. And that's exactly what I think happened in this case.

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06-28-2011, 02:30 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Sioux4Life View Post
Umberger shouldn't be glad that a talented player left the organization and most certainly shouldn't have taken a shot at said player as he exits the organization.

I would ask Umberger how the Jackets are now better without Filatov? So Filatov is the reason they missed the playoffs?
Good question. How are the Blue Jackets better off with a player who was going to play in the KHL?



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06-28-2011, 04:45 PM
  #303
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Well you should hear what Pierre McGuire is saying about Filatov.
Essentially, he saying the problem with Klesla, Zherdev, Brule and Filatov is the CBJ.

About Filatov, he says the Jackets (Hitch?) just killed him by focusing on his play without the puck and minimizing or ignoring his play with the puck. McGuire says this is the worst possible way to handle a highly skilled young player. He claims this just destroyed Filatov's confidence and that it will take a special coach to resurrect him. He infers the others were so badly mishandled that the Blue Jackets ruined them.

I think he may have a point.

http://proxy.autopod.ca/podcasts/chu...715%20CFGO.mp3

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06-28-2011, 04:49 PM
  #304
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If Pierre McGuire is so great at player development then why isn't he being paid to do that instead of being paid to run his mouth, which is what he is doing here.

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06-28-2011, 04:55 PM
  #305
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If Pierre McGuire is so great at player development then why isn't he being paid to do that instead of being paid to run his mouth, which is what he is doing here.
I can't disagree with you. Pierre interviewed for about every GM job that has been available for the last few years and is always a bridesmaid.

Just because he may not be a desirable or even decent GM candidate doesn't mean we should ignore his thinking. Look at it this way, almost every pick the Jackets have made was very defensible, with the possible exception of Johansen.

Is it coincidence that the entire hockey world was wrong in evaluating Klesla, Leclaire, Zherdev, Picard, Brule and Filatov? Is it just as possible those guys had the talent but were totally mishandled?

Either the Jackets usually pick the guy the "experts" would slot in their lottery spot and somehow the experts and the Jackets are always wrong, or it's something else.

What do you think?

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06-28-2011, 05:14 PM
  #306
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Is it coincidence that the entire hockey world was wrong in evaluating Klesla, Leclaire, Zherdev, Picard, Brule and Filatov? Is it just as possible those guys had the talent but were totally mishandled?
Zherdev obviously wasn't mishandled, not to mention basically run out of the room for a year. Hitch actually took him under his wing for a bit and it seemed to be working until Zherdev would just disappear in games. Leclaire became injury prone. As time went on Klesla lost any tools he might have had.

I suppose you can make whatever claim you want with the other three. It's his opinion and mt-skv will agree with it. I think it's bullocks, but there you go. Filatov's major issue is that he wasn't ready to compete at the NHL level. I use the word compete. Had he competed, Hitch would have kept him out on the ice and used him in more situations. With the puck and without it.

I doubt McGuire watched one practice and was probably lucky to see one or two of Filatov's games. I'd trust AP's opinion more then this guy.

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06-28-2011, 05:20 PM
  #307
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You can take the boy out of Russia, but you can't force him to play the North American game. Speaking of Filatov.

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06-28-2011, 05:40 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Well you should hear what Pierre McGuire is saying about Filatov.
Essentially, he saying the problem with Klesla, Zherdev, Brule and Filatov is the CBJ.

About Filatov, he says the Jackets (Hitch?) just killed him by focusing on his play without the puck and minimizing or ignoring his play with the puck. McGuire says this is the worst possible way to handle a highly skilled young player. He claims this just destroyed Filatov's confidence and that it will take a special coach to resurrect him. He infers the others were so badly mishandled that the Blue Jackets ruined them.

I think he may have a point.
He doesn't have a point. Even the most highly-skilled players in the world don't have the puck on their stick for the majority of time that they're on the ice. Therefore, stressing what they're supposed to do without the puck, whether through positioning, rotation, forechecking, backchecking, or anything else, is paramount.

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Originally Posted by leek View Post
I can't disagree with you. Pierre interviewed for about every GM job that has been available for the last few years and is always a bridesmaid.

Just because he may not be a desirable or even decent GM candidate doesn't mean we should ignore his thinking. Look at it this way, almost every pick the Jackets have made was very defensible, with the possible exception of Johansen.

Is it coincidence that the entire hockey world was wrong in evaluating Klesla, Leclaire, Zherdev, Picard, Brule and Filatov? Is it just as possible those guys had the talent but were totally mishandled?

Either the Jackets usually pick the guy the "experts" would slot in their lottery spot and somehow the experts and the Jackets are always wrong, or it's something else.

What do you think?
If these guys had the talent but were mishandled, where's the production? Brule is a 3rd- and 4th-liner on a bad team, and he was supposed to be half of a trade for a winger who's way past his prime just a few days ago. Instead of Brule and a 5th-rounder, it's Colin Fraser and a 7th. Is Colin Fraser that much better than Gilbert Brule?

Where's Alex Picard's production? He scored a ton of goals from in close in the Q, then he gets into the NHL without the necessary vision to see plays develop, so he constantly ended up out of position.

I was young once too. I once believed that having the tools was more important than having the toolbox, and was quick to dismiss guys like Tim Kerr as being an anomaly rather than the rule. Even the emergence of minimally-skilled smart guys like Ziggy Palffy and Jason Allison should have broken into my mind, even as tons of skilled and hockey-dumb players were drafted and burned out rapidly. It's only in the last few years that I've come around.

In retrospect, it should have been apparent that, with the exceptions of Nash and Brassard, none of the MacLean-era first-round picks should have been made because none of them were destined to be top-line or top-pairing players. They were limited not by desire or willpower or attitude, but by something that they cannot control. You can no more get mad at Klesla for not being a franchise defenseman than you can be mad at your dog for not having opposable thumbs and the ability to vocalize his thoughts.

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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
If Pierre McGuire is so great at player development then why isn't he being paid to do that instead of being paid to run his mouth, which is what he is doing here.
The only thing that Pierre McGuire knows about player development is that he has no idea how to do it, just like he didn't when he was coaching Hartford.

He was given a young team in 1993-94, and every single player went backwards. In one single year, every player who looked like an emerging young star regressed, and a rookie defenseman in Chris Pronger looked putrid and then had off-ice issues (assault charges from a bar fight, and a DUI while driving to Bowling Green).

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06-28-2011, 05:44 PM
  #309
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About Filatov, he says the Jackets (Hitch?) just killed him by focusing on his play without the puck and minimizing or ignoring his play with the puck.
The only thing that I agree with with this is that Filatov needs to develop better skills with the puck. I'm not sure whether or not the Jackets coaches over the years have really worked at honing his skills with the puck or thought that was just god-given talent or something he was good at, why bother.

While the most glaring problem with putting him out on the ice for the coaching staff was his play without the puck, if he was scoring more goals, what he does without the puck may not really matter.

The problem I see with Filatov's skills with the puck is that they haven't progressed to follow the hype. What worked in juniors isn't working in the NHL and that's the problem.

It's too easy to take the puck from him, he's not able to get around defenders and his shots are too easy for goaltenders to stop. He's not using his body to shield the puck, he's not strong enough on the puck to get into a good position to shoot and he tends to shoot the puck right in the high slot where the goaltender has a perfect view of him shooting and it's incredibly predictable.

I have no idea how much coaching on those types of skills did or did not take place with Filatov when he was with the CBJ. It's possible he disregarded it. If it is an ego thing, maybe he doesn't really care what anyone playing for a crappy team that only once made the playoffs.

But I don't think the "identity" of the Jackets now is a team that has a 40 goal scorer who has a +/- of -45.

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06-28-2011, 06:04 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leek View Post
Well you should hear what Pierre McGuire is saying about Filatov.
Essentially, he saying the problem with Klesla, Zherdev, Brule and Filatov is the CBJ.

About Filatov, he says the Jackets (Hitch?) just killed him by focusing on his play without the puck and minimizing or ignoring his play with the puck. McGuire says this is the worst possible way to handle a highly skilled young player. He claims this just destroyed Filatov's confidence and that it will take a special coach to resurrect him. He infers the others were so badly mishandled that the Blue Jackets ruined them.

I think he may have a point.

http://proxy.autopod.ca/podcasts/chu...715%20CFGO.mp3
He does. Filatov wasn't cut out to play Hitch Hockey. We drafted the wrong player for the type of game we were playing but we picked him up anyway. Somebody wasn't thinking.

Then once we get those type players, we try to stuff square pegs into round holes.

I think we finally have a coach who knows what kind of player he needs to run his game and has the blessing to go after them. So far, it's meant losing some of the fan favorites but it's really in everybody's best interest. There is no point in trying to pound someone into something they aren't. It just kills confidence and drains the fan base. To the players that are cut loose, I wish them well. Just because they didn't fit our plan, doesn't mean they are ****. They just didn't fit.

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06-28-2011, 06:12 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by CBJCougar View Post
He does. Filatov wasn't cut out to play Hitch Hockey. We drafted the wrong player for the type of game we were playing but we picked him up anyway. Somebody wasn't thinking.

Then once we get those type players, we try to stuff square pegs into round holes.

I think we finally have a coach who knows what kind of player he needs to run his game and has the blessing to go after them. So far, it's meant losing some of the fan favorites but it's really in everybody's best interest. There is no point in trying to pound someone into something they aren't. It just kills confidence and drains the fan base. To the players that are cut loose, I wish them well. Just because they didn't fit our plan, doesn't mean they are ****. They just didn't fit.
Pretty hard to reshape that square peg into a round one when it refuses to do what you ask or is in Russia.

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06-28-2011, 06:14 PM
  #312
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Pretty hard to reshape that square peg into a round one when it refuses to do what you ask or is in Russia.
Yeah, that's a problem.

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06-28-2011, 08:15 PM
  #313
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Zherdev obviously wasn't mishandled, not to mention basically run out of the room for a year. Hitch actually took him under his wing for a bit and it seemed to be working until Zherdev would just disappear in games. Leclaire became injury prone. As time went on Klesla lost any tools he might have had.

I suppose you can make whatever claim you want with the other three. It's his opinion and mt-skv will agree with it. I think it's bullocks, but there you go. Filatov's major issue is that he wasn't ready to compete at the NHL level. I use the word compete. Had he competed, Hitch would have kept him out on the ice and used him in more situations. With the puck and without it.

I doubt McGuire watched one practice and was probably lucky to see one or two of Filatov's games. I'd trust AP's opinion more then this guy.
You should listen to the interview. I didn't transcribe it. One of his major points was that MacLean rushed Klesla, Zherdev, and Brule into the NHL instead of bringing them along. He says the same mistake was made with Filatov. He felt he should not have been here his draft year. He didn't say it, but I took it to mean he should have been in Juniors. I would certainly argue Rusty should have been in Juniors his first season.

I'm not saying McGuire is right or wrong, but he does have a point. Earlier in this thread, I posted that I think Detroit does a better job developing players than most teams. I can't remember the last 20 year old on Detroit's roster, much less all of the 18 year olds we've seen here.

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06-28-2011, 08:26 PM
  #314
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You should listen to the interview. I didn't transcribe it. One of his major points was that MacLean rushed Klesla, Zherdev, and Brule into the NHL instead of bringing them along. He says the same mistake was made with Filatov. He felt he should not have been here his draft year. He didn't say it, but I took it to mean he should have been in Juniors. I would certainly argue Rusty should have been in Juniors his first season.

I'm not saying McGuire is right or wrong, but he does have a point. Earlier in this thread, I posted that I think Detroit does a better job developing players than most teams. I can't remember the last 20 year old on Detroit's roster, much less all of the 18 year olds we've seen here.
Klesla scored two goals in his brief tryout in 2000-01, then made the all-rookie team in 2001-02. I can admit when I'm wrong, and I was wrong not to deduce that he'd basically peaked at that point. I haven't made the same mistake with Zach Bogosian.

Detroit is able to "develop" players because every guy that they pick is boom or bust. And they'll give them the maximum amount of time needed so that there is zero doubt that their guy is ready for full-time duty. I'll also point out that they've had ridiculous luck in picking up fallers. Jiri Hudler was a consensus top-15 pick who was "too small", Jimmy Howard fell for no reason, and so on.

But what's often overlooked is how many complete flameouts they've picked as a result of deviating from what they normally do. They actually picked what I call "the Coffin Guy", because he was the nail in the coffin for the last remnant of my mind that thought that skill trumps hockey IQ and vision. His name is Dick Axelsson. They picked him in 2006, and if you thought Zherdev was a guy with all talent and nothing else, Axelsson's skill was much more copious. Problem is, besides being a headcase on par with....I don't know, Filatov, he couldn't put it together on the ice.

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06-28-2011, 08:38 PM
  #315
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He says the same mistake was made with Filatov. He felt he should not have been here his draft year.
Talk to Howson. I asked why Howson kept dumping players on Hitch that weren't ready for the NHL (Brass, Filatov). Doesn't mean Hitch did anything wrong and it didn't mean they were "ruined" because of the experience.

As I said before, if you lose your confidence that easy you don't belong in the NHL anyway.

I stand by my statement about Filatov. He hasn't been, at any point, ready to compete at the NHL level.

On a side note, we didn't rush Zherdev. He's a lazy ass that suffers from motivational issues. I don't care if he spent 5 years in the AHL preparing.

We can go back and list dozens of sub 20 players producing at the NHL level (or did @ 19 or 20). That's too easy of a statement.

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06-28-2011, 08:43 PM
  #316
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Talk to Howson. I asked why Howson kept dumping players on Hitch that weren't ready for the NHL (Brass, Filatov). Doesn't mean Hitch did anything wrong and it didn't mean they were "ruined" because of the experience. As I said before, if you lose your confidence that easy you don't belong in the NHL anyway.
Huh?

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06-28-2011, 09:02 PM
  #317
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Huh?
You don't remember Brass's first trip up the NHL level? Here I'll help you.

'07-'08
CBJ
17 1 1 2 -4 6 13 7.7 0 0 0 0 0 -- 9:03 76:57
'08-'09
CBJ
31 10 15 25 12 17 59 16.9 3 4 0 0 1 -- 14:25 17:53

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06-28-2011, 09:20 PM
  #318
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Anybody else getting tired of seeing Filatov's name in the crawl at the top of the screen?

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06-28-2011, 09:23 PM
  #319
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Anybody else getting tired of seeing Filatov's name in the crawl at the top of the screen?
Yep.

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06-28-2011, 10:22 PM
  #320
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Talk to Howson. I asked why Howson kept dumping players on Hitch that weren't ready for the NHL (Brass, Filatov). Doesn't mean Hitch did anything wrong and it didn't mean they were "ruined" because of the experience.

As I said before, if you lose your confidence that easy you don't belong in the NHL anyway.

I stand by my statement about Filatov. He hasn't been, at any point, ready to compete at the NHL level.


On a side note, we didn't rush Zherdev. He's a lazy ass that suffers from motivational issues. I don't care if he spent 5 years in the AHL preparing.

We can go back and list dozens of sub 20 players producing at the NHL level (or did @ 19 or 20). That's too easy of a statement.
I'm not so sure we are disagreeing. Hitch's job is to coach the players he has to compete and win games. He needs to ice the 20 players who give him he best chance to win. Howson and the rest of hockey operations is charged with development and roster selection.

As far a Z goes and for that matter Filatov, both were just handed spots. Zherdev was physically mature, but not mentally or emotionally. Filatov wasn't physically, mentally or emotionally ready, yet the Jackets caved to pressure to place him on the roster. Maybe if they had been forced to prove they would and could compete, they might have been very different players. I think both needed seasoning. Couldn't we make the same argument with Mason? Sure he had a hot run his rookie year, but would he be a much better goalie if he had been in the AHL until last season?

As far as young players contributing at an NHL level, they are reasonably rare. We see the Halls, Tavareses, Crosbys, Stamkoses and think it's common. It's much less common than many believe.

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06-29-2011, 05:52 AM
  #321
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As far a Z goes and for that matter Filatov, both were just handed spots. Zherdev was physically mature, but not mentally or emotionally.
Has Zherdev ever been mature? No. That wasn't going to change with 5 years of "seasoning"

Quote:
Filatov wasn't physically, mentally or emotionally ready, yet the Jackets caved to pressure to place him on the roster.
What part of he wasn't going to accept the AHL and run back to the KHL do we not understand here? This kid left right when Hitch was starting to ramp up his minutes. In which he had made the decision before the season started because Hitch "was never going to give him a chance". He didn't like his line mates, his minutes, and he hated the AHL.

Our only option was to let him develop in the KHL for a few years. Might have worked. But Howson didn't seem willing to do that. This experience might, ultimately, have been the method that Filatov needed to have a real career in the NHL. Maybe that sense of entitlement is gone. Based on this off season, I doubt it.

Now if the Sens are willing to dump 15 minutes a game on the second line with him, who knows he might be put up some decent numbers in the East as time goes on.

Everyone can be critical with 20/20, but the bigger issue was probably just drafting them in the first place.

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06-29-2011, 06:24 AM
  #322
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I don't disagree with a lot of what McGuire said. Anyway you slice it, Filatov was NOT a player that was going to thrive under Hitchcock... be it an indictment against the GM, the pick itself, or the coach.

That said, I don't think Paul MacLean will have ever had to deal with a situation like the one Filatov represents... Obviously the skill is there, but the distraction factor is huge because this kid just isn't ready to play in the league night in and night out. MacLean comes from a system where these young internationals are plucked, ripen, are hand-harvested with care, and already have a great idea of what is expected of them, wherever they are on the ice because they've been developed properly.

As far as the RJ sarcasm goes, I always felt that RJ was the kind of guy that it didn't matter your skill level, as long as you came to play, he'd respect you.

Filatov was rushed, but from the standpoint of his skill and this organizations lack of it, he needed to be, he already had it in his head that he was going to be playing in the league sooner rather than later.


Looking back on it, the whole situation was most likely doomed from the start anyways....

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06-29-2011, 07:52 AM
  #323
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Has Zherdev ever been mature? No. That wasn't going to change with 5 years of "seasoning"



What part of he wasn't going to accept the AHL and run back to the KHL do we not understand here? This kid left right when Hitch was starting to ramp up his minutes. In which he had made the decision before the season started because Hitch "was never going to give him a chance". He didn't like his line mates, his minutes, and he hated the AHL.

Our only option was to let him develop in the KHL for a few years. Might have worked. But Howson didn't seem willing to do that. This experience might, ultimately, have been the method that Filatov needed to have a real career in the NHL. Maybe that sense of entitlement is gone. Based on this off season, I doubt it.

Now if the Sens are willing to dump 15 minutes a game on the second line with him, who knows he might be put up some decent numbers in the East as time goes on.

Everyone can be critical with 20/20, but the bigger issue was probably just drafting them in the first place.
As I said, we aren't necessarily in disagreement. The Jackets' first round draft record is self evident. Something is wrong and this year's pick is likely the best one since 2002. Trade it for a proven quantity. For other teams this should be a rare occurrence, for the Jackets, maybe not.

We'll never know, but what would have happened if some of those first round busts were drafted by stronger franchises. Do you think Filatov would have gotten away with threatening Holmgren or Ken Holland? Gillis?

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06-29-2011, 08:10 AM
  #324
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http://twitter.com/#!/NHL_Sens/statu...57902112129024

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#Sens development camp has an extra member today, as newly acquired Nikita Filatov has joined the group.
He didn't come to the CBJ development camp last season IIRC.

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06-29-2011, 08:31 AM
  #325
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Anybody else getting tired of seeing Filatov's name in the crawl at the top of the screen?
Yes, and Jake's picture/video from the "jersey off our backs" on the Dispatch Puckrakers blog, too.

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