Martin
Michalek
Orpik
Letang
Niskanen
Despres
Morrow*
Lovejoy
Engelland
Strait
Bortuzzo
Harrington*
Sneep
Samuelsson
D'Agostino
Velischek
Rogalski
McNeill
Grant
*2011 drafted
Who I'm missing?
That's a lots of d-men in our organisation. Lots of tradeable assets in future. Do you guys think that we are going to keep Morrow or Despres? Or both? How about Orpik? Could Despres displace him at some point? Are we going to see Martin here after next season? Lot's of interesting questions here but we have a very bright future here with our D-corps. Lot's of versatility and potential.
Orpik - Martin
Despres - Letang
Michalek - Morrow
That would be a cool lineup at some point. MAYBE. But are we going to aquire a top-6 guy, like we did with Whitney and Goligoski? I personally think Morrow would be that guy to go instead of staying.
I doubt Morrow would be the one "to go". Shero and company said that we didn't have a player of his type/style in the system already. We took care of a long-term need - if people learn to realize that though... well, different story.
To answer the question, I think we could very well see Paul Martin being shipped out in a year or two. However, that depends on the development of Despres. 'Cause he could end up getting flipped for a winger as well.
I doubt Morrow would be the one "to go". Shero and company said that we didn't have a player of his type/style in the system already. We took care of a long-term need - if people learn to realize that though... well, different story.
To answer the question, I think we could very well see Paul Martin being shipped out in a year or two. However, that depends on the development of Despres. 'Cause he could end up getting flipped for a winger as well.
I read that too, so maybe Shero is keeping him to replace someone after 2 or 3 years.
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
Was going to post this as well, depth is great, but the quality of depth is what people are forgetting about.
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
I thought Bortuzzo projected as a 2nd pairing d-man, same with Baby Ulf and Grant. I know the later two are more "specialists", but I thought they all had 2nd pair upside
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
Bortuzzo could be a top 4 guy if he keeps progressing. He has a lot of potential, which is why he is one of my fav. prospects.
On the Pens, he may end up only being a third pairing guy with their depth. But if he is dangled in a trade in a couple of years, another team may see him as a top 4 guy on their roster and be willing to pay accordingly.
I see a lot of people talking about moving Bortuzzo now, which is insane. Let him develop and show his talents in the NHL, as I am certain it will substantially increase his value.
I'm not even sure I want to see him be moved - he has a ton of upside. But as I said with GoGo last Fall, someone has to be the odd man out with this much blueline depth. Hopefully it isn't Bortuzzo.
Was going to post this as well, depth is great, but the quality of depth is what people are forgetting about.
If Morrow is as good as they say, the Pens have 3 legit blueliners who could be top 4 guys:
Despres
Bortuzzo
Morrow
Despres' upside is a #2, Bortuzzo's upside is a #3 or #4 and Morrow I can't speak on.
Strait could easily be a #5 and someone who can fill in the top 4 when injuries hit. I think he will be the kind of reliable blueliner you need to win a championship... much like Scuds, but not as offensively retarded.
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
Said perfectly.
At the end of the day, it seems to be Shero's MO to draft a wealth of quality defensemen and then turn them around for a decent winger to play in the top 6. (Whitney & Gogo for Kunitz & Neal)
I think we can expect more of the same with some of these guys and it seems likely that Despres would be that particular guy.
Nothing wrong with this line of thinking, as it's been doing the job for Shero up to this point. (Neal performance pending...)
I really don't think despres is gonna be traded. Martin will be moved when the time comes for him to play. I think for now out of the prospect pool despres and bortuzzo stay. Anyone of the others wouldn't suprise in a package at the deadline.
At the end of the day, it seems to be Shero's MO to draft a wealth of quality defensemen and then turn them around for a decent winger to play in the top 6. (Whitney & Gogo for Kunitz & Neal)
I think we can expect more of the same with some of these guys and it seems likely that Despres would be that particular guy.
Nothing wrong with this line of thinking, as it's been doing the job for Shero up to this point. (Neal performance pending...)
Technically, Shero didn't draft Whitney OR Gogo, so it's not like he drafted them with the intent of someday trading them for winger help. I think what Shero does is less drafting for depth with the intent of trading from strength and more just picking who he and his scouting staff believe is the best remaining player available regardless of position, so that their overall organizational prospect value doesn't dip from reaching on a guy or two to address perceived future needs.
As for Despres being a guy that would get traded, maybe, but it's just as likely that one of our more established guys with a bigger contract will get moved and Despres will take on a bigger role on the team at that point. It would depend on what the other team is looking for, and who they are dangling and what level of contract he'll be bringing with. It'll be situational.
Some of these D prospects are trade bait, nothing more. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Despres or Bortuzzo for an equal caliber winger. Another James Neal would be nice. Perhaps now isn't the time, but sometime down the line.
Was going to post this as well, depth is great, but the quality of depth is what people are forgetting about.
Nah. The quality of depth is good too, we just don't have any major studs.
Despres, Bortuzzo, Samuelsson, and Morrow all project to be top 4 guys. Despres and Morrow could end up top pair guys, but I have concerns over their hockey IQs that i think may prevent them from becoming true top pair guys. But all 4 of these guys have a good first pass, can all skate really well for their sizes (Morrow's the only one under 6'2"), and can be used on either side of special teams. Samuelsson and Bort won't be PP QBs but they could both fill in on a 2nd unit and not seem out of place. They both have pretty good shots that they keep low and on net as well.
I'd put Grant, Sneep, Strait, D'Agostino, and Harrington in the next tier as guys who project as 4-6 defenders that specialize in something OR bring a decent two-way game. Grant a 5-6 and PP specialist, Strait a 5-6 PK specialist, Sneep a 5-6 with 2-way upside, D'Agostino a 4-5 with 2-way upside, and Harrington a 4-6 with some 2-way upside.
McNeil, Rogalski, Velishchek, etc are a crapshoot. But Velischek and Rogalski certainly have a fair shot of at least becoming career AHLers.
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
Disagree. I think Strait can be a 2nd-pair guy with Bortuzzo, and Samuelsson also has 2nd pair upside.
But here's where I will agree with Scotty Bowman and not designate "1st pair, 2nd pair, 3rd pair". Right now, we sort of have 2 top pairs and then a clear "3rd pair", but with these guys signed long-term and with our depth, we could soon have simply 3 solid pairs, in which pair 3 is as good as pair 2, and so on.
That said, I still feel we're missing a true, absolute #1 Dman/PP QB type of player. Letang is very close to that and may be that guy in most respects, but not quite. Despres projects more as a great #3 or maybe #2 guy, but I don't see him as a #1.
As Sexton said, Morrow is a guy who is more of a triggerman on the PP, but not a pure QB. I would still like someone in our prospect pool to be a legit, high-end QB (no, Despres is not that guy). D'Agostino is the only one who may fit that mold, has good size & is a lefty; but then again, he may never be an NHLer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi
Technically, Shero didn't draft Whitney OR Gogo, so it's not like he drafted them with the intent of someday trading them for winger help. I think what Shero does is less drafting for depth with the intent of trading from strength and more just picking who he and his scouting staff believe is the best remaining player available regardless of position, so that their overall organizational prospect value doesn't dip from reaching on a guy or two to address perceived future needs.
As for Despres being a guy that would get traded, maybe, but it's just as likely that one of our more established guys with a bigger contract will get moved and Despres will take on a bigger role on the team at that point. It would depend on what the other team is looking for, and who they are dangling and what level of contract he'll be bringing with. It'll be situational.
I don't doubt that first part at all. They may very well pick the guy that is highest on THEIR list. The unfortunate thing is that there just seems to be holes on that list (i.e. like anyone playing in Europe). Also, if there truly is an organizational need, such as forward, you would like to think that they can identify some great players even if they're a couple spots down on your list.
I also don't think Despres gets moved. He can play 1 or maybe even 2 seasons in the AHL, and then come here on an entry level deal that will fit well within the cap. Maybe by Martin's or Z's 4th or 5th year in their deal we can look to move him if Despres & others are really ready to take over, but not before that.
Nah. The quality of depth is good too, we just don't have any major studs.
Just saw this after I posted the same idea. You're right: I don't see a player in our system who has clear-cut future #1 potential.
If such a Dman is available in next year's draft when we're picking, I'll be very happy if we draft another Dman in the first round. But as I say, at some point, you have to start trading all these assets you're compiling.
Damn shame we let Muzzin walk also. He's got 2nd pairing potential and brings a lot of size & physicality. We could get a pretty significant return for him if we still had him.
What I can't complain about is Shero staying in his comfort zone of drafting North American guys. He knows where his, and his staff's strengths are. Draft what you know and who you can get a really good read on.
What I can complain about is that I don't personally think that we have a good enough scouting corps in Europe, and we should try to strengthen that area of the organization.
What I can't complain about is Shero staying in his comfort zone of drafting North American guys. He knows where his, and his staff's strengths are. Draft what you know and who you can get a really good read on.
What I can complain about is that I don't personally think that we have a good enough scouting corps in Europe, and we should try to strengthen that area of the organization.
Agreed 100% on both counts. Right now, it seems there are holes on their list because they are missing some European players. So, until that gets addressed, I much prefer them sticking with the players they actually know rather than playing the Euro slot machine (Ekbom, Seppanen, Leinonen).
And while that's ok for now, this is something the Pens should try to address ASAP -- getting some more European scouts.
Martin
Michalek
Orpik
Letang
Niskanen
Despres
Morrow*
Lovejoy
Engelland
Strait
Bortuzzo
Harrington*
Sneep
Samuelsson
D'Agostino
Velischek
Rogalski
McNeill
Grant
I'm not too sure how you could list Morrow over Lovejoy, since Morrow was drafted literally 10 minutes ago while Lovejoy has already played more than a full season in the NHL. Plus, everyone vastly underrates Lovejoy.
I'm not too sure how you could list Morrow over Lovejoy, since Morrow was drafted literally 10 minutes ago while Lovejoy has already played more than a full season in the NHL. Plus, everyone vastly underrates Lovejoy.
Could Lovejoy get us a 1st or even 2nd rounder? I think Morrow's value is higher at this point.
Our D prospects outside of Despres and now Morrow don't figure to be more than 3rd pairing NHLers at best... So there's a lot of depth but not necessarily a lot of top-end talent.
I don't think that is the case. If Scuds could develop into a top 4 type dman why couldn't a guy like Strait or Bortuzzo who have dominated the AHL the past two seasons as a shut down pairing. I think they provide the same thing down on WBS as Gill and Scuderi did for the Pens during the Cup run. Although I think Strait and Bortuzzo are better puck movers than Scuds and are very close to NHL ready now. I am not saying either are going to be top 4 dmen but I would also not be surprised if they could develop into that type of dman.
Also a guy like Samuelsson has the ability to develop into a top 4 dman that plays a defensive game somewhere in between an Orpik and Michalek in his play. I also believe many of those other prospects can develop into a 4 depending on developnment but since many are so far away the chances are lower because they are years away. For example it is way to early to say Harrington can't be a 4 and I don't think the Pens picked him in the 2nd if his upside is bottom pairing.
Now I will say the chances of being in the top 4 on the Pens D is almost 0 because the Pens have one of the best top 4's in the NHL. That does not mean they can't be top 4 quality. I could see the Pens having quality top 4 guys 8 to 9 deep in a couple years (Martin, Letang, Orpik, Michalek top pairing type and Despres, Morrow, Samuelsson, Bortuzzo, and Strait fighting for playing time but being developed enough to play in the top 4 if needed). Morrow is more likely 3-4 years away but those other guys will be knocking on the door in the next two years.
I saw someone say Orpik could be the one replaced in a few years and I think he would be one of the last to go because he is our only physical dman that can take big men out from in front of the goal. I honestly think the first two dmen that would go in a few years for a trade for a stud winger would be Martin or Michalek. Letang is the only stud offensive dman we have and is the youngest of the 4 by a good amount of years and Orpik is the only big banger.
I could see guys like Despres, Bortuzzo, Samuelsson, and Morrow replacing Martin and or Michalek 2 to 3 years down the road. I think those prospects are going to need to show they are over ready for this to happen because you don't get rid of top pairing type dman for even an okay 2nd pairing type guy. I really believe these guys will have to develop into a player in the same class for the Pens to unload one or more of the elite top 4 they have now. I am sure Martin could bring the Pens a stud top line winger in a deal so trading him brings the most value back but I would not touch our top 4 for a couple years. More likely is these guys show their stuff on the bottom pairing like Gogo and then someone is willing to give us a top 2 line winger for them like Neal. I still think this D needs one more Orpik type that can clear the net and I hope a guy like Samuelsson develops into that type of dman.
I'm not too sure how you could list Morrow over Lovejoy, since Morrow was drafted literally 10 minutes ago while Lovejoy has already played more than a full season in the NHL. Plus, everyone vastly underrates Lovejoy.
Might as well put everyone who just got drafted on the bottom of such lists then, including guys like Larsson and Nugent-Hopkins. You have to factor in their upside and what kind of player they're likely to be eventually, because that plays into their overall worth to the organization.
Occasionally you can make a guy like Eaton or Scuderi fit into your top-4 rotation, but that's never the ideal scenario. And situations like that are the exception and not the rule.
And if you're counting on Strait AND Bortuzzo AND Samuelsson in your top 4, even if they all develop properly and reach their maximum potential, you're a lottery team.
Why is it that our organization that is run so well. And has a wealth of money and as shown last year they are not afraid to spend it. Why don't we put some more money into scouting euros? I feel like shero and company typecast europeans. There are plenty of skilled europeans in this league that play damn good 2 way hockey.
