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Instead of injury prone allison and lindros

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Old
07-24-2004, 07:41 AM
  #1
slider
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Instead of injury prone allison and lindros

Everyone talks about getting a first line center. I say instead of waisting a ton of cash on someone that injury prone. I would rather see what happens in training camp. Instead lets take long looks at map, shremp, ninimak, brodziak etc. I know you can say that they are not ready. but if either one of are prospects can show something why not give that person a shot. Again, I rather watch a youg guy give it a shot playing with smyth or york etc than a guy that we know is going to get hurt and be gone half the year. I remeber comrie was given a shot and made the team why can't we do the same.


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07-24-2004, 07:55 AM
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I understand your point slider, but this team is down at least one player at center and have been for a calendar year since Marchant and Comrie left. Last season they tried Smyth at center, elevated Stoll, signed Oates. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. But when Reasoner got hurt (and later York) the organization had less depth than any team in memory (that was trying and being run by people who knew what they were doing). It's still a mystery to me why they didn't make a deal before March 3.

Anyway, I think they could easily sign a free agent AND trade for a mid-level center. If they signed Allison (not my choice btw) and traded for Jeff Taffe, the depth chart might look like this:

Allison
York
Horcoff
Stoll
Taffe
ir-Reasoner

You could move Horcoff to LW or York to RW depending on Rita or Hemsky and how they're doing. If and when Allison is hurt, at least you're covered a little bit in terms of injury and poor performance.

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07-24-2004, 08:03 AM
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I see your view lowetide
A guy like taffe would be decent centre for us. I just want to note that Boston gave a shot to a young center in bergeron and he made an impact. But, it could be the scenario too much too soon.

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07-24-2004, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider
I see your view lowetide
A guy like taffe would be decent centre for us. I just want to note that Boston gave a shot to a young center in bergeron and he made an impact. But, it could be the scenario too much too soon.
And that could certainly happen. I just don't think they can count on it, especially considering last season. btw, if I had $100 to bet on who might make the team?

Schremp.

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07-24-2004, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by lowetide
And that could certainly happen. I just don't think they can count on it, especially considering last season. btw, if I had $100 to bet on who might make the team?

Schremp.
I am also coming to the conclusion that a big name ufa is not best for this team. I know there are problems with expecting too much too soon but I agree with you lowetide. I think Schremp has an excellent chance to make this team if there is a season. I think the oiler brass figure they are better off having him close and grooming him themselves away from all the distractions of junior. This still does not give them a top six centre for at least the first half of the season however so I repeat my idea from another thread. Niinimakki or Pouliot plus a roster player for a young centre (Weiss or like him, 22 to 23 years old) We basically trade a roster player for two or three years of development of a first round centre. I really don't know Weiss as a player so he is just an example but there must be a bunch of 22-23 year olds drafted in the first round that are close to being able to shoulder a top six role.

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07-24-2004, 10:43 AM
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im in favor of trading for a young center, but i dnt want to give up prospects..... i would be much happier trading either smith or brewer (cause it would eat up salary money as well)..... just for the record, i dont think schremp will make the team this year

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07-26-2004, 11:39 AM
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Not discounting your theory about giving a young guy a shot (lots of good ones in the system) just a side note that Jamie Allison is not injury prone. He's had a bad one, but it's an injury that isn't expected to be chronic.

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07-26-2004, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228
Jamie Allison
If we're bringing in an Allison, I'd rather get Jason.


Although Allison hasn't had what would be considered a chronic injury history, he's had such a variety of major injuries in his career that I think the "injury prone" tag is fair. A bit like Martin Straka.

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07-26-2004, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider
I would rather see what happens in training camp. Instead lets take long looks at map, shremp, ninimak, brodziak etc.

And I would like to add the name of Ales Hemsky. He looks like a centre, he plays like a centre, he smells like a centre etc. Has anybody seen him take one shift as a centre? Yes, I know the defensive responsibilities are different. Yes, I know you need to be able to take draws. Can anybody explain to me why it makes less sense to try a 20 year old winger who plays like a centre than a 27? year old winger who plays well along the boards? One of the biggest coaching disappointments for me last year was that this was not even tried.

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07-26-2004, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
And I would like to add the name of Ales Hemsky. He looks like a centre, he plays like a centre, he smells like a centre etc. Has anybody seen him take one shift as a centre? Yes, I know the defensive responsibilities are different. Yes, I know you need to be able to take draws. Can anybody explain to me why it makes less sense to try a 20 year old winger who plays like a centre than a 27? year old winger who plays well along the boards? One of the biggest coaching disappointments for me last year was that this was not even tried.
Hemsky had a difficult enough time playing right wing in the NHL, nevermind playing him in a position he hasn't played in.

He never played centre in the Q either...

It makes significantly less sense to try Hemsky at centre as opposed to Smyth because Smyth has developed his game, and he has shown that he can adapt. It simply isn't fair to Hemsky to try and make him both learn the NHL game, and learn a completely new position...

I don't understand how everyone thinks he looks and plays like a centre... he doesn't play like Roenick (who is a centre), he doesn't play like Federov (who is a centre), he doesn't play like Datsyuk (who is a centre)... He doesn't have the skillset to play centre... hell Ryan Smyth struggled enough doing it...

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07-26-2004, 01:29 PM
  #11
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He's right, theres no real reason to pay for a UFA center right now. We are not contenders yet, Lowe's not stupid. I think that when our core of up and coming players are nhl ready, and he feels he has the team he needs to be a contender, he will make the moves necessary, such as aquiring that #1 center if need be. But as of now, why waste the money just to take up a roster spot and maybe gain us a couple points in the standings. But when they need the $$$ to get that 1st line C when it counts, they'll have it.

I think its like back when Weight was here, sure if they really wanted I bet they could have kept him, but honestly, why? It would just have been a huge waste of money, with the team we had, Weight wouldn't have done anything except maybe let us pick later in the draft. Of course it would have been nice to get more for him but thats over and done with.

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07-26-2004, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggyman
He's right, theres no real reason to pay for a UFA center right now. We are not contenders yet, Lowe's not stupid. I think that when our core of up and coming players are nhl ready, and he feels he has the team he needs to be a contender, he will make the moves necessary, such as aquiring that #1 center if need be. But as of now, why waste the money just to take up a roster spot and maybe gain us a couple points in the standings. But when they need the $$$ to get that 1st line C when it counts, they'll have it.

I think its like back when Weight was here, sure if they really wanted I bet they could have kept him, but honestly, why? It would just have been a huge waste of money, with the team we had, Weight wouldn't have done anything except maybe let us pick later in the draft. Of course it would have been nice to get more for him but thats over and done with.
Try explaining that one to the fans and potential customers though. "I agree, we need a first line centerman to make the playoffs and we can probably afford to pick one up. However, we're not going to do anything this off-season and possibly miss the playoffs. We're going to save the money and pool it together in a slush fund that we'll crack open in a couple years when all our young guys have matured..". Everyone in Edmonton saw how important Nedved was to our roster and there is definitely going to be some discontent if Lowe stands pat..

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07-26-2004, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
Try explaining that one to the fans and potential customers though. "I agree, we need a first line centerman to make the playoffs and we can probably afford to pick one up. However, we're not going to do anything this off-season and possibly miss the playoffs. We're going to save the money and pool it together in a slush fund that we'll crack open in a couple years when all our young guys have matured..". Everyone in Edmonton saw how important Nedved was to our roster and there is definitely going to be some discontent if Lowe stands pat..
To add, a player like Nedved will help the Oilers reach the next level. For years, many people have said the Oilers were close to contending. Since Weight left, we never had a top line centre. When Weight was here, we never had a number 2 guy to take some pressure of the first line. Sometimes, one player can be huge.

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07-26-2004, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
If we're bringing in an Allison, I'd rather get Jason.


Although Allison hasn't had what would be considered a chronic injury history, he's had such a variety of major injuries in his career that I think the "injury prone" tag is fair. A bit like Martin Straka.
oops hehe

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07-26-2004, 03:50 PM
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I'm not for breaking the bank... but if somebody good can be had for the 3 million range, then Lowe HAS to do it. Lowe aquired a team from SLats that was a one line team - Lowe has made it into a very deep 4 line team, but lacking the leaders though. we still have some improving to do before we are serious contenders, but I dont' think it's as far off as some of you think... IMO in five years we'll be a team who regularly has home ice advantage in the first round of the playoffs....

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07-26-2004, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
Hemsky had a difficult enough time playing right wing in the NHL, nevermind playing him in a position he hasn't played in.

He never played centre in the Q either...

It makes significantly less sense to try Hemsky at centre as opposed to Smyth because Smyth has developed his game, and he has shown that he can adapt. It simply isn't fair to Hemsky to try and make him both learn the NHL game, and learn a completely new position...

I don't understand how everyone thinks he looks and plays like a centre... he doesn't play like Roenick (who is a centre), he doesn't play like Federov (who is a centre), he doesn't play like Datsyuk (who is a centre)... He doesn't have the skillset to play centre... hell Ryan Smyth struggled enough doing it...

Well, I actually disagree with pretty much all of that. The things that Hemsky had trouble with - getting knocked off the puck - not being able to go in the corners and dig out the puck - are situations that you encounter more on the wing than at centre.

And I would say that Smyth's 'developed' game took a kicking when moved to centre where he didn't adapt at all as shown by the fact that Lowe went out and got Oates which didn't work well and Smyth never played another shift at centre the rest of the year.

Whether or not it is fair to ask Hemsky to learn a new position or not I don't know. I know it is very unusual but not unheard of at the NHL level. But it has been done and is often done the other way around with centres being moved to the wing. As I understand it the most difficult thing is changing defensive responsibilities. Easier to teach to a 20 year old than a 28 year old in my opinion.

Saying that he doesn't play like 4 or 5 other centres in the league is not convincing Dawgbone and I am sure you know it. I read your posts all the time and you would never accept an argument like this from somebody else. What do you need to play centre? Good vision. Check. Playmaking and passing skills. Check. Ability to dangle in order to get your wingers into scoring postion. Check. Doesn't have the skillset? What does that mean? He needs to learn how to take draws and cover defensively? Heck, McTavish was able to teach even Marchant how to take draws and the defensive coverage wasn't the reason Smyth went back to wing. There are different types of centres I will grant you as there are different types of quarterbacks in football but the prototypical centre is a smooth skater with great vision and passing skills who can control the pace of the play in the offensive zone. Which part of that is a major reach for Hemsky?

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07-26-2004, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
Well, I actually disagree with pretty much all of that. The things that Hemsky had trouble with - getting knocked off the puck - not being able to go in the corners and dig out the puck - are situations that you encounter more on the wing than at centre.
So you just hide him? He can play in traffic and that, he just needs to learn to pick his spots. That will come with time and experience... simply throwing him on at centre isn't going to change that. That won't change his turnovers on the rush, and being a centre doesn't mean you never go into the corners.

Quote:
And I would say that Smyth's 'developed' game took a kicking when moved to centre where he didn't adapt at all as shown by the fact that Lowe went out and got Oates which didn't work well and Smyth never played another shift at centre the rest of the year.
So what do you think would happen with Hemsky? 1st/2nd line centre is a huge responsibility, and I personally don't think Hemsky is ready for something like that. His previously mentioned turnovers at centre, combined with his complete lack of familiarity with the position would have put the Oilers in a bigger hole to start off with.

Quote:
Whether or not it is fair to ask Hemsky to learn a new position or not I don't know. I know it is very unusual but not unheard of at the NHL level. But it has been done and is often done the other way around with centres being moved to the wing. As I understand it the most difficult thing is changing defensive responsibilities. Easier to teach to a 20 year old than a 28 year old in my opinion.
Why is that? I would think a winger with a few years experience who has played with some very good centres in the past would be able to make the adaption better, especially in the short term, than a guy who is still finding his own game in a position he has played for years.

Quote:
Saying that he doesn't play like 4 or 5 other centres in the league is not convincing Dawgbone and I am sure you know it. I read your posts all the time and you would never accept an argument like this from somebody else.
Sorry, I basically picked a couple of guys who play very differently, but were all centres... I wasn't comparing Hemsky to them, but more comparing them to each other and how different thay are, trying to dispel the myth that there is a typical centre, or a typical winger...

Quote:
What do you need to play centre? Good vision. Check. Playmaking and passing skills. Check. Ability to dangle in order to get your wingers into scoring postion. Check. Doesn't have the skillset? What does that mean? He needs to learn how to take draws and cover defensively?
The last 2 parts are both a) the hardest to learn, b) the most important parts of the position. It's the whole package... not just one thing. You don't have to be an ace defensively, but the centre isn't the first guy out of the zone, he's the one that needs to hold back and help the defencemen if the opposition is pressing on the forecheck.... it's all those things.

Quote:
Heck, McTavish was able to teach even Marchant how to take draws and the defensive coverage wasn't the reason Smyth went back to wing. There are different types of centres I will grant you as there are different types of quarterbacks in football but the prototypical centre is a smooth skater with great vision and passing skills who can control the pace of the play in the offensive zone. Which part of that is a major reach for Hemsky?
That's also an apt description of a play making winger, or a defenceman... not just a centre. The offensive game isn't the only part of it (face it, Hemsky, with his offensive skills, would be good at any position). I just personally think that playing him at centre, would have done a lot to really hurt his development...

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07-26-2004, 04:38 PM
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IMHO, Lowe has kinda talked himself into a corner on this one. Since the season ended, he's stated long and loud that he WILL get a center, whether it's Nedved or someone like him. He'd look rather impotent if he backed out of that commitment now.

The only question here is how he'll go about it. The longer it takes, the more likely it'll be done via trade than FA signing.

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07-26-2004, 05:04 PM
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Dawgbone - well, I expect that we will continue to disagree on this one but I understand your position better now. And just to be clear. If we had a clear cut offensive centre I certainly wouldn't be making this suggestion. But given the situation we are in I think it is worth a try. I look at line-ups posted that have Hemsky playing 3rd line RW and it makes me want to cry. I think 2nd line centre has to be a better fit than that.

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07-26-2004, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
Dawgbone - well, I expect that we will continue to disagree on this one but I understand your position better now. And just to be clear. If we had a clear cut offensive centre I certainly wouldn't be making this suggestion. But given the situation we are in I think it is worth a try. I look at line-ups posted that have Hemsky playing 3rd line RW and it makes me want to cry. I think 2nd line centre has to be a better fit than that.
I think as a 20 year old, him in the lineup anywhere isn't bad... now, if we were so deep on the wing that a 25 year old Hemsky who was starting to peak needed to play on the 3rd line, I'd probably feel closer to what you feel.

IMO, because you have offensive potential, it doesn't mean you have to play on the top 2 lines... teams like Ottawa and Detroit have shown that with their young guys.

Spezza was a 4th line centre, and Havlat was a 3rd line winger early on too.

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07-26-2004, 05:18 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
I think as a 20 year old, him in the lineup anywhere isn't bad... now, if we were so deep on the wing that a 25 year old Hemsky who was starting to peak needed to play on the 3rd line, I'd probably feel closer to what you feel.

IMO, because you have offensive potential, it doesn't mean you have to play on the top 2 lines... teams like Ottawa and Detroit have shown that with their young guys.

Spezza was a 4th line centre, and Havlat was a 3rd line winger early on too.
Yeah, but this is his third season coming up. I know he is still very young but by the third season it is time to start holding his own. I was a big fan of him playing 4th line and pp this year but by next season I think I want to see him in the top six somewhere. Anyway I still think a lot more is made of playing centre vs wing than is actually there. We are not discussing going from rocket surgery to brain science. If you understand how hockey works you can adapt. Particularly at an early age and to me (if nobody else is available) now is the time to try it.

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07-26-2004, 07:26 PM
  #22
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I would be upset

unless we finished last and won the draft lottery and then drafted Crosby

What the chances of that would be slim? Ok Lowe needs to prop up that position

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07-26-2004, 07:47 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by spaz44
unless we finished last and won the draft lottery and then drafted Crosby

What the chances of that would be slim? Ok Lowe needs to prop up that position
well, the odds aren't bad.

Out of:

Allison
Nedved
Zhamnov
Stumpel
Lindros
Nylander

there's a 1 in 5 chance of coming up with one of those guys, all else equal, which it isn't for various reasons.

And there might be some teams in the running for one of these guys that fall out if instead they land (or EDM might try to land one of these guys and move York to C):

Kariya
Demitra
Palffy
Kovalev
Murray

And worse comes to worst, EDM could probably try for one of:

Brylin
Carter
Perrault
Ronning
Zholtok


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07-26-2004, 09:51 PM
  #24
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I will continue to bang the drum here, but Allison would be a giant waste of cash, just like Pavel Bure would be. We might entertain ideas of him playing a full season, but the likelyhood of that is ridiculously low. I know, you're going to tell me that he's working out and things are going well. This happened before. The second he got into contract drills, he got dizzy and lost all his progress.

I would be shocked if Allison is able to resume his NHL career at all next season (if there is no lockout).

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07-26-2004, 11:13 PM
  #25
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Money and Marty Reasoner

those are the two biggest factors that will shape the Oilers '05 pivot corps.

The Oilers can offer Allison the icetime and role he covets but they can't offer him the money or a legit chance to win like other orgs can. And the $$$ will also factor into other FA talks with guys like Zhamnov and it will keep them from seriously persuing trades for guys who make significant coin.

And while I'm a Reasoner fan I don't see him in a big offensive role but if he's not around to play pivot than that means the Oilers need two centres instead of one, ie assuming that they don't plan on using York there this season and that right now we only have Stoll-Horcoff as NHL ready

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