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Why I think the Bolts should trade St. Louis

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08-12-2004, 02:19 PM
  #1
Darth Milbury
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Why I think the Bolts should trade St. Louis

Now, before you flame away, hear me out.

From my perspective, the Bolts are not far from totally dominating the NHL. They have great goaltending, an outstanding group of young forwards, and a good collection of sub-elite dmen. The only thing holding them back is the absence of a true stud on defense. I expect that to really hurt them if (as may happen) they face Chara, Redden, and Phillips in the playoffs.

So, I think the Bolts should be looking to trade St. Louis, at the height of his market value, for a #1 guy.

Now, go ahead, let me have it.

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08-12-2004, 02:43 PM
  #2
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Well now that we have become a playoff team, it will be interesting to see how the community gets behind the team financially. Everyone seems to be getting substantial raises and we'll have to wait and see where the money is going to come from. Has anyone heard of how ticket sales are going especially in light of the looming labor war?
That being said, I think St. Louis is kept barring an unbelievable offer because he is the epitome of this team and not to mention probably the fans' favorite player. If this team needs to save money then I can see them walking away from Cory Stillman, depending on the arbiter's award. I realize that Jay Feaster said he was in the team's long-term plans, but being benched for performance reasons in the finals can't be a good thing.

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08-12-2004, 02:55 PM
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While I agree they need some help on D, I dont think trading St. Louis is the answer. His value is high and they could get a lot for him, but he is far too valuable to trade. His leadership on and off the ice and he is the most popular player in Tampa and it might turn fans the wrong way trading the league MVP and the most popular player. I wont flame you having an opinion.

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08-12-2004, 03:01 PM
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well good for you being brave enough to post that.... that being said i will now proceed to tear that plan apart here it goes...

Trade the team's most marketable player?... that makes no sense he and jerome Iginla are the closets things that the league has to stars and you want to trade him..... how the hell are you supposed to market that team without him... lets get real here, we all know the great players the lightning have but the only player the average casual fan is likeley to know is St.louis, so trade him and who do you have? Khabibulin??? People aren't going to come to games to see him even if hes putting up shutouts everygame. Flashy GOAL SCORING plays are the only plays that will attract the casual fans not some russian whos name the can't pronounce so how the hell is this team supposed to make money because its not like they are in a big hockey town anyway.... theyre in tampa... one of the many idiotic places that the nhl has put teams. regardless of wether it makes the team better or not it wont matter because the nhl is at a point where in this country it just doesnt matter and even if they win 5 straight championships it wouldnt matter. they have a star who they may be able to sell to the masses and they shouldnt give that up


Im sorry but that was posssibly the stupidest thing i've ever read on these boards mostly because i think you might have been halfway serious

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08-12-2004, 03:29 PM
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You've proved over the years to know what you're talking about and I think the ends of your proposition are noble, however, it's the wrong peice getting it done. As KFC said, St. Louis is possibly the most marketable player on the Lightning (well, him and Vinny). He is highly thought of by the TB fan base for his underdog story and his tireless work ethic. Add his success to that and they give him a key to the city. There is no way St. Louis is moved if a big piece is indeed moved. Nor is Richards or Lecavalier. They'll take their lumps without having a true #1.

Actually, now that I think about it... TB's defense is as good as anyone's in the league. Heck, they just won a Cup with a no-name defense. It matches up not by being top-heavy like some teams, but the third pair can often times be interchanged with the first pair and you're not going to get a big drop off. Kubina has proven himself as a shut-down guy over the past two playoff seasons and he's still relatively young... and he led Dmen in goals last year and can play on the PP. A #1 in the mold of Redden/Chara/Lidstrom? No, not at all, but he's definately All-Star worthy and is finally molding into a #1.

Again, I don't think a true #1 is needed anymore. You have your PP guy(s), your shutdown guy(s), and as long as the former is not a liability in his own zone (Boyle, Kubina) and the latter can make a good first pass (Sarich, Lukowich... Pratt), you add a jack of all trades guy (Sydor) ... you're ok. I think a polished, dominant true #1 is great, but you tie up your salary in him and you've got Darren Rumble playing #5 minutes.


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08-12-2004, 04:15 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC

Im sorry but that was posssibly the stupidest thing i've ever read on these boards mostly because i think you might have been halfway serious

Halfway serious! No, dude, I was totally serious!


If this team had a Chris Pronger type on the bench, a guy who could play 30 minutes a game and dominate on the blueline, I think you'd be looking at a dynasty.

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08-12-2004, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Halfway serious! No, dude, I was totally serious!


If this team had a Chris Pronger type on the bench, a guy who could play 30 minutes a game and dominate on the blueline, I think you'd be looking at a dynasty.
From an outsider POV, I have to say I agree with you. However, they would have to get something like a Pronger back because as the Bolts fans have stated, St. Louis is their most marketable player so therefore gains some value from their end.

Don't get me wrong, I think Pronger has a considerable amount more value, but St. Louis holds a lot of specific value to the Tampa area.

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08-12-2004, 05:33 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanic39
As KFC said, St. Louis is possibly the most marketable player on the Lightning (well, him and Vinny). He is highly thought of by the TB fan base for his underdog story and his tireless work ethic. Add his success to that and they give him a key to the city.[
Yup, if Feaster wants to keep his job (and possibly his life ) he would not consider moving St. Louis, he's very loved down here. We're trying to build a fanbase, not alienate half of it. People were very irate at the rumor that they were looking to trade Vinny, I hate to think what would happen if they attempted to move St. Louis.

Quote:
Actually, now that I think about it... TB's defense is as good as anyone's in the league. Heck, they just won a Cup with a no-name defense.
Also correct. They get absolutely no respect here, EVER, yet they were somehow good enough to win the Cup, go figure. A little tweaking wouldn't hurt (I frequently want to slap Lukowich upside the head) but to me, Kubina has close to "stud" potential, and I don't see the need to bring in some overpriced guy to supplant him.

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08-12-2004, 05:46 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Halfway serious! No, dude, I was totally serious!


If this team had a Chris Pronger type on the bench, a guy who could play 30 minutes a game and dominate on the blueline, I think you'd be looking at a dynasty.
1. Its highly questionable wether you could even get a defensmen like that for an undersized St.louis, teams will always be cautious of him( investing in him by free agency or trades) because of his size and they will question his ability to stay healthy as he gets older.

2. Yeah if they could get a defensman like that, would make them a better team, but they would have serious problems replacing that kind of offensive productivity, he was a catalyst for them last season and it may not be worth it to trade him unless they can adequatley replace that

3. The type of defensman your talking about would be a very expensive player and command a HUGE salary simlar to pronger's ten million, neidermeyer was seeking 9 mill. it would be much cheeper to sign st.louis to a long term deal and then they have more money to put peices around him and have a deeper team that can survive several injuries to still compete.

4. those type defensman typically are injury prone( pronger, blake, stevens) because of the brutal style they play. with so much salary being tied up in one player it becomes difficult to build depth around him if your working on a budget which tampa is

5. And it is much much much more diffucllut to market a defenseman nomatter how domanint to the general masses because the casual fan is really only paying attention to goals(Pretty goals) people wont go to games or turn on the tv to see some huge defensmen bodycheck and clear the zone

6. If they get that type of defensman yes its very possible that they become a dynasty but they would presumably be playing a style of hockey that complements their arsenal of players and that would be a more defensive style( New jersey, mineosta) That doesnt sell to the public and it doesnt matter how mnay championships they win they wont make money, New jersey is the perfect example they couldnt sell out stanley cup finals games last year and even though they ended up winning they still ended up loseing money for the season and tampa bay isnt exactally a hotbed for Ice hockey

so in the end for the well being and longevity of the frachise it would make more sense to keep the more marketable asset (st.louis)


Last edited by KFC: 08-12-2004 at 05:51 PM.
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08-12-2004, 07:47 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotnos
Yup, if Feaster wants to keep his job (and possibly his life ) he would not consider moving St. Louis, he's very loved down here. We're trying to build a fanbase, not alienate half of it. People were very irate at the rumor that they were looking to trade Vinny, I hate to think what would happen if they attempted to move St. Louis.


Also correct. They get absolutely no respect here, EVER, yet they were somehow good enough to win the Cup, go figure. A little tweaking wouldn't hurt (I frequently want to slap Lukowich upside the head) but to me, Kubina has close to "stud" potential, and I don't see the need to bring in some overpriced guy to supplant him.
I think you will be surprised by the progress a player like Lukowich can make. I'm not saying he is going to be a top pairing guy because he clearly lacks the skill. But, I think he has got another gear in there.

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08-12-2004, 08:47 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I think you will be surprised by the progress a player like Lukowich can make. I'm not saying he is going to be a top pairing guy because he clearly lacks the skill. But, I think he has got another gear in there.
I just picked him because he can be great or he can really stink, most of the time I don't mind him, but sometimes... Hopefully he'll lose some of the brain farts as he gets older.

I will say he can certainly take one for the team, I lost count of how many times he got hit in the face with sticks and pucks and kept on going. I remember reading somewhere that his team nickname is "Stitch".

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08-12-2004, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KFC
Im sorry but that was posssibly the stupidest thing i've ever read on these boards ...
You haven't been reading these boards for very long, have you?

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08-12-2004, 09:02 PM
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True, it gets MUCH WORSE than this

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08-13-2004, 06:58 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotnos
I just picked him because he can be great or he can really stink, most of the time I don't mind him, but sometimes... Hopefully he'll lose some of the brain farts as he gets older.

I will say he can certainly take one for the team, I lost count of how many times he got hit in the face with sticks and pucks and kept on going. I remember reading somewhere that his team nickname is "Stitch".
Okay I have to ask who "Lilo" is on the team.
I honestly think in today's NHL with all the interference, clutching and grabbing that goes on that you only need a defense that is just good enough. You must have a cohesive unit out there and St. Louis is the glue that keeps things together. If his Jack-of-all-trades skills and propensity for scoring big goals are gone then this team takes a step back in my opinion. There is only a very small handful of players I trade St. Louis for and they wouldn't leave their respective teams if the GM's head is screwed on correctly. However, you never know.

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08-13-2004, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by joeminus
You haven't been reading these boards for very long, have you?
HA! No kidding.

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08-13-2004, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by joeminus
You haven't been reading these boards for very long, have you?
yeah true, i was exagerating, They get much much worse

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09-09-2004, 01:20 PM
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Keeping with the theme of a true #1 to Tampa, what about Hamrlik (I place this here b/c of past rumors and b/c I suspect that is the player Darth would be trying to move) and a pick for Sarich and Aleexev?

Money moving in both directions is close In Tampa's case, they bring in an upgrade that will help in the defense of the cup and in marketing the team. The Isles get a wing prospect with size and a physical d-man.

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09-09-2004, 01:31 PM
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I don't think the original proposal is so outlandish, but if I were the Tampa GM and brought in a true #1 defenseman capable of averaging 27, 28 minutes a night, then I would worry about the effect on payroll. Defensemen in that echelon are very well paid. On the other hand, we do not yet know how well paid St. Louis will be either following his MVP season.

If nothing else, the proposal is intended to stir up some debate, and that has to be a good thing as the summer heads into a lockout phase. A little creativity in discussing hockey looks like it's going to be needed, unfortunately. Not many NHL games to mull.

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09-09-2004, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Drake1588
On the other hand, we do not yet know how well paid St. Louis will be either following his MVP season.
Some of us anticipate it will be moving toward Hedjuk-type money...

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09-09-2004, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hb6947
what about Hamrlik and a pick for Sarich and Aleexev?
With Cullimore gone to Chicago via free agency, Sarich has dang near worked himself into core-player status in Tampa. Sarich is just now coming into age as a defensemen. I'm not saying he's going to top out as a top pair guy, but he'll be a solid Top 3 guy for a long time that can chew up a ton of minutes. I wouldn't give up his age and upside for a few years that Hamrlik will remain a #1 guy. A young Top-4 blueliner + a former #8 overall for #1 d-man that has already peaked?

Way too high of a price for Feaster. He is already on record as saying top d-men are way too expensive to acquire, and has set a course for the TBL to grow their own stable of top defensement. Look at Tampa's Top-15 prospects here at HF? Eight of them are defensemen. Feaster isn't going to acquire a top d-man unless it is fire-sale, salary dump situation. Giving up roster players (and core ones at that) for guys like Hamrlik isn't going to happen. Maybe picks and prospects, but not for guys like Sarich. Feaster will grow his own before that happens.

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09-09-2004, 02:01 PM
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I think the fact that st louis is not signed is significant. if there are strong payroll restrictions in the new cba, tampa will be over the limit already. they have lecavalier, richards, modin, & prospal so they can afford to lose st louis. the question i have is what they get in return. they cant take on a significant salary and stay under the payroll numbers. so, they would need to get picks and prospects in return or trade another salary, sydor, along with st louis in order to take on a salary.

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09-09-2004, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exterminator-x
Some of us anticipate it will be moving toward Hedjuk-type money...
I suspect that is the ballpark, yes. On the plus side for the Lightning right now, there is no rush to get a deal done. Pressure to ink contracts for stars is pretty minimal right now. They can wait and hope for a restrictive CBA later on... though I don't personally believe one is in the offing.

If the Lightning ownership is prepared to pay their players, presumably at a payroll that jumps from last season's ~$35M to something over $40M, then I don't expect there to be restriction placed on the team's actions by the next CBA. Where the ownership wants the payroll to rest, post-Cup victory, is the real question in my opinion. I myself expect they are prepared to accept a modest increase that falls in the $5-7M region, and that should allow them to keep their core, even with the raises. We'll see.

EDIT: Typo


Last edited by Drake1588: 09-09-2004 at 02:42 PM.
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09-09-2004, 03:49 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
I suspect that is the ballpark, yes. On the plus side for the Lightning right now, there is no rush to get a deal done. Pressure to ink contracts for stars is pretty minimal right now. They can wait and hope for a restrictive CBA later on... though I don't personally believe one is in the offing.

If the Lightning ownership is prepared to pay their players, presumably at a payroll that jumps from last season's ~$35M to something over $40M, then I don't expect there to be restriction placed on the team's actions by the next CBA. Where the ownership wants the payroll to rest, post-Cup victory, is the real question in my opinion. I myself expect they are prepared to accept a modest increase that falls in the $5-7M region, and that should allow them to keep their core, even with the raises. We'll see.

EDIT: Typo
Drake, my math could be off, but after arbitration I think TB's payroll is already at or slightly above $40m mark already with St Louis and Andreychuk still outstanding.

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09-09-2004, 04:18 PM
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Your right, txpd, the Lightning payroll is ~$40M with only Andreychuk and St. Louis still to be signed. With those two under contract, I expect the payroll to fall between $46-48M, likely somewhere in the middle.

Is that going to be restrictive under the new CBA? Probably not... Is that going to be budgetary restrictive to the TBL's ownership? My guess is no, given operational mode of ownership the last two years or so.

IMO, no one will have to be jettisoned from the roster to sign St. Louis, even if he does command Hedjuk-type money.

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09-09-2004, 04:39 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exterminator-x
IMO, no one will have to be jettisoned from the roster to sign St. Louis, even if he does command Hedjuk-type money.
I agree and it seems obvious from the moves made already that next year's payroll was anticipated and planned for, so it's not really a concern (neither is a ridiculously low hard cap). While it would be nice to have him signed so that it's over and done with, there's no rush until it looks like we'll actually have a season.

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