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Hypothetically... If we don't sign Richards

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Old
06-27-2011, 12:50 AM
  #26
boots electric
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Originally Posted by Mr Twinkie View Post
Thoughts? My first thought would be why would the Blues trade Oshie for Boyes, when they just traded him to Buffalo at the trade deadline, I'm sure they don't want him back after seeing him play 20 some games with us
What do you mean "why?" Because he already knows the players, the coaching staff, and the system. Because he put up just shy of 60 points last seasons. Because he's only under contract for one more year. Because he fills a need for them, both positionally and financially.

Re-trades happen. Not often, but they do happen.

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06-27-2011, 12:59 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Top options include...

Jason Spezza-

Reasons for it:
-Ottawa is rebuilding ...and they want to keep Spezza as part of that.
-His salary is quite large and maybe Ottawa is looking to unload some of that in the rebuild process....they're $4M under the cap floor; giving Spezza's contract up makes matters worse, not better.
-He's a good player and maybe he's the guy the Sabres want....that doesn't make him available.

Reasons against it:
-Intradivisional trades are very difficult, often including overpayment, which Darcy is loath to do....fact
-While in a rebuild, Spezza has stated he wants to be a part of the rebuild...fact
-Besides Alfredsson, Spezza is their only top-line forward and is the face of the franchise...fact
Conclusion: Scratch him off any wish lists.

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Originally Posted by dkollidas View Post
Paul Stastny-

Reasons for it:
-Colorado has holes in net, on defense, and on the wing (although some of that was fixed with Landeskog and who knows about free agency maybe Vokun goes there)...and Sabres don't have enough depth in goal to unload Enroth, even if Colorado wanted him to become their starter.
-They have depth, talent and youth at the center position with Duchene, O'Reilly and Joey Hishon....but lacking experience, per below
-He is a perfect playmaking center to pair with Vanek....maybe-East-West deal; therefore Colorado wouldn't have to say hello to Stastny 4-6 times a season, and the other way around for the players Buffalo sent over...not as big a concern by teams as it used to be
Reasons against it:
-Though he has a large salary, Colorado may need to keep it in order to stay above the cap floor...fact
-Duchene, O'Reilly and Hishon are all in their early 20's and Stastny while also young has experience going up against top NHL players on a season to season basis...fact
Conclusion: Not as much a long-shot to be dealt to another team but certainly remote it will be the Sabres.

As for Staal, I'm on the fence with the idea - his physical qualities, size, two-way skills and youth are all appealing but I don't think he brings enough offense to the center spot nor is a real playmaker.

If Richards signs elsewhere, and Stastny and Spezza are extreme long shots, I'd hope the Sabres investigate Pavelski in San Jose. With $8M of cap space and only 16 players signed, and their big four (Thornton, Marleau, Heatley and Boyle) all having NMC/NTCs, and the liklihood that they'll try to extend Burns before he becomes an UFA next summer, they have some financial challenges. Add in that they have a dynamic center in Couture behind Pavelski and he MIGHT be available.


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Old
06-27-2011, 01:01 AM
  #28
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I think you have it backwards, he played 1C for a long time last season and the team almost stole the two seed from Philly and took what turned out to be a really strong TBL team to seven games. His performance last season increased his value.
After Malkin went down, Staal played 28 games as the #1 center. He had 8 goals and 14 assists for 22 points.

Before that he played 14 games and had 3 goals and 5 assists for 8 points.

Neither point total was all that great.

Pittsburgh's defense was a big reason why they finished where they did.

Pittsburgh only scored 14 goals against TB in that 7 game series, to include a 1-0 loss in game 7 at home.

Their offense (actually the loss of Crosby and Malkin) was a big reason they had a 1st round exit.

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06-27-2011, 01:13 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
I doubt we sign Richards. It seems like everybody on this board expects us too. It will be incredibly hard, and highly unlikely. Go after Stasny! Which I understand will also be difficult but oh well
Did anyone expect the Sabres to be bought by a billionaire that cares more about winning than profits and loves the game enough to emotionally cry over a player?

Did anyone expect the Sabres to add an expensive salary at the trading deadline without giving any up?

Did anyone expect the Sabres to spend $100K on an alumni reunion in a regular season finale?

Did anyone expect the Sabres to spend $6M on locker renovations on a building only 15 years old?

Did anyone expect the Sabres to spend money to conduct their own scouting combine in Buffalo and fly 20+ prospects in?

Did anyone expect Ruff to let go of McCutcheon?

Did anyone think the Sabres had a shot at premium player like Regehr, much less be able to convince him to waive his NTC?

What most people have come to expect is the previously-unattainable because of Pegula and Black. In the past 4 months, through their words and their actions, there is no reason not to believe that the sky is the limit or that "unlikely" events are in "the realm of possibilities" as Black says.

No one knows what or how Richards will decide on a team - but nothing's he or his agent have said publicly give any reason to consider the potential unrealistic either.

I realize that the jaded, skeptical outlook many Buffalo sports fans have is deeply ingrained from consistent disappointments of past regimes and that it's a reflex of doubters to take a "wait and see" approach to the new ownership but have a little faith - has there been one thing or action to date that's been made which wasn't a good one?

Not that I can see.

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06-27-2011, 02:45 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by boots electric View Post
What do you mean "why?" Because he already knows the players, the coaching staff, and the system. Because he put up just shy of 60 points last seasons. Because he's only under contract for one more year. Because he fills a need for them, both positionally and financially.

Re-trades happen. Not often, but they do happen.
Yeah, I suppose they do.. But realistically I just don't see the blues making a trade for Boyes after just shipping him our way. That's all

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06-27-2011, 04:20 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
-Intradivisional trades are very difficult, often including overpayment, which Darcy is loath to do....fact
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
-He is a perfect playmaking center to pair with Vanek....maybe-East-West deal; therefore Colorado wouldn't have to say hello to Stastny 4-6 times a season, and the other way around for the players Buffalo sent over...not as big a concern by teams as it used to be
This is at least a bit hypocritical. The truth is somewhere in between.

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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
-Colorado has holes in net, on defense, and on the wing (although some of that was fixed with Landeskog and who knows about free agency maybe Vokun goes there)...and Sabres don't have enough depth in goal to unload Enroth, even if Colorado wanted him to become their starter.
This just makes little sense to me. Sure, Enroth is the back-up right now but it's not as if they couldn't find another. Enroth's value to us long-term is either for him to eventually replace Miller, which is too far off to worry about, or to, at some point, trade him. Maybe you wait to build his value, but that's a separate issue from not trading him due to organizational depth concerns. He'd have to be replaced as back-up whenever he's traded, and the back-up role is always readily replaceable. Similarly, his value to any team in trade is as a potential #1. Enroth is one of the higher end assets I'd be quickest to trade if it got us a #1 center because his CURRENT role is most immediately replaceable and he seems rather destined to be traded at some point.

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06-27-2011, 05:58 AM
  #32
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With the rumors that Richards would be interested in going back to TB, what are they going to do with their 3 dynamic Centers? Will one of them play out of position? Could Lecavalier be available (again?)? If so, would you want his contract?

He's the same age as Richards and has 9 years left at $7.72M/year. That's about what we would have to give B. Richards. Granted we would have to give up assets to acquire him, but assuming Richards is gone he could be a decent Plan B.

People have also speculated Pavelski's availability because of their strong amount of Centers. But what about Thornton instead? He's also 31, but making "only" $7M/season for the next three seasons. SJ hasn't been able to get over the hump and may be willing change things up as they have Couture and Pavelski (and Marleu if necessary) to play top 6 C minutes.

Does Andy McDonald still play C? I believe he's been getting more time on the wing, but he might be an option as well. 33 years old and making $4.7M but only 2 years left on his contract. Has been pretty good offensively in his career.

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06-27-2011, 07:23 AM
  #33
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I really don't want Jason "giggles" Spezza on this team, and I doubt Ottawa is trading him. I haven't really seen a good argument as to why Stastny would be on the market either, but then again look at what happened in Philly.

I have faith that Darcy gets something done. We still have plenty of assets remaining that we can trade away thanks in part to the great deal we got with Regehr.

Richards is just about ideal, though. Give up no assets to get him except for cap space.

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06-27-2011, 08:11 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Clock View Post
I really don't want Jason "giggles" Spezza on this team, and I doubt Ottawa is trading him. I haven't really seen a good argument as to why Stastny would be on the market either, but then again look at what happened in Philly.

I have faith that Darcy gets something done. We still have plenty of assets remaining that we can trade away thanks in part to the great deal we got with Regehr.

Richards is just about ideal, though. Give up no assets to get him except for cap space.
More than just giving up assets, as they will have to give up a lot in cap space anyhow, he's really a perfect hockey fit. Other than his age, he has everything wanted, except for being overly physical which really isn't a concern of mine for this role.

He has an excellent two-way game which makes him a great addition for a team that needs a dynamic playmaker who can perform when being 'locked down' over a series but also really needs to improve its team defense from last season. That balance is huge for a guy getting big minutes, as it can go along way to solving both issues.

The PP improved last year statistically but was still very unreliable and was still a serious threat to kill momentum. He absolutely excels on the PP and his addition with some change in philosophy could very realistically make this mix of players a top unit in the league.

He's also adept as a penalty killer. Depending how lines are rolled, he could definitely be used for some PK situations without wearing him out, if that was best for the team. Certainly at the least he would represent a very strong back-up option for PK units as well as a reliable option for key situations.

As much as anything, he's won the Cup while being the key performer. No other option can say that, though that isn't to say they couldn't perform just as well in the playoffs.

Having said all that, I am on the record as being strongly against just paying whatever it takes to get him. Maybe you do that for a 22 year old, MAYBE. At 31 years old, you can't be impulsive. If he likes the situation enough here, then you can pay him "top dollar", but as good a fit as he is you have to walk away if he wants us to simply be the highest bidder of a crazy bidding war.

The other options being discussed in this thread are really hard for me to consider because we know most of them aren't likely to be available and further have no clue what it would take to get them.

I, like you, am not interested in Spezza. I would rather overpay for a different center out of the division, where the price would not likely be as steep relative to value. Further, Spezza may be better than Roy but they are a bit redundant as players and Roy has a superior contract.

If Richards falls through I am all for trying to find more of a #2/#3 guy with potential, ideally two such players. Wing depth allows this team to roll 4 solid lines -- 3 strong offensively -- if they improve the center situation. This just doesn't seem a good market to try and trade for a "legit #1" center. Boston's cup run was about being strong all down center, not having an elite #1. Seguin will be an elite #1 some day but that certainly wasn't his role. This team needs guys at the #2 and #3 spots that can make their lines dangerous as much as it needs one guy that can make one line elite.

Being that we are early in the "Stanley plan", it makes sense to just bring in good centers and see how it all works out. Over the next couple years you keep looking for opportunities to get that #1 guy if he's there. Situations can change. A Colorado center is far more likely to be available in a couple years after guys like Hishon and Landeskog (sp?) have a chance to prove themselves.

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06-27-2011, 08:45 AM
  #35
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I think they need to cast a wider net.

There is also the possibility that they go with a stop-gap solution with short-term UFA deal to a natural center and then hold their assets for next year's draft (that first and two seconds), awaiting another opening when a previously unavailable player may come up on the market.

Jordan Staal, with Malkin and Crosby coming off major injuries and still not recovered, is unlikely as anyone in the NHL to be moved.

Stastny may or may not be available, it remains a case of finding what the Avs might take in trade if anything.

Spezza has been discussed to death.

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06-27-2011, 09:41 AM
  #36
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This is at least a bit hypocritical. The truth is somewhere in between.
It is - my mistake. I think trades within the conference aren't as frowned upon as they used to be when division rivalries were more intense.

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This just makes little sense to me. Sure, Enroth is the back-up right now but it's not as if they couldn't find another.
How successful was that quest since Biron left? It's not just about finding a warm body to throw behind Miller as it is finding one that Ruff has confidence in.

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Enroth is one of the higher end assets I'd be quickest to trade if it got us a #1 center because his CURRENT role is most immediately replaceable and he seems rather destined to be traded at some point.
Hey, if Colorado wants Enroth in order to consider trading Stastny, I'm 100% for it....

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06-27-2011, 09:45 AM
  #37
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I'd love Staal. But, I can't see the Pens moving him with Crosby & Malkin have the injury bounce back questions looming over them.

I wonder if the Pens would entertain offers for Malkin. Would that be worth rolling the dice?

Spezza - No thanks. I view him as a higher paid, taller Derek Roy.

Stastny - I'm worried that he's an overhyped/overpaid guy. But, I'd take him over Spezza.

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06-27-2011, 09:48 AM
  #38
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With the rumors that Richards would be interested in going back to TB, what are they going to do with their 3 dynamic Centers? Will one of them play out of position? Could Lecavalier be available (again?)? If so, would you want his contract?
If you listen to the Lightning fans arguing for Richards, Boucher's system doesn't focus on playing in position and that two centers on a line is normal for how they play.

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People have also speculated Pavelski's availability because of their strong amount of Centers. But what about Thornton instead? He's also 31, but making "only" $7M/season for the next three seasons. SJ hasn't been able to get over the hump and may be willing change things up as they have Couture and Pavelski (and Marleu if necessary) to play top 6 C minutes.
The difference is that Thornton's ability to lift his play in the postseason has historically been absent before this year's playoffs - if Richards is out, then I'd rather take a younger option with just as much to prove in the playoffs than Thornton.

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Does Andy McDonald still play C? I believe he's been getting more time on the wing, but he might be an option as well. 33 years old and making $4.7M but only 2 years left on his contract. Has been pretty good offensively in his career.
McDonald will be 34 by the time the season begins and has been injury-free in only 1 of the past 4 seasons.

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06-27-2011, 10:04 AM
  #39
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If you listen to the Lightning fans arguing for Richards, Boucher's system doesn't focus on playing in position and that two centers on a line is normal for how they play.
I just looked at their salaries. I guess Richards would take Gagne's spot in the top 6 then? Makes sense.

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The difference is that Thornton's ability to lift his play in the postseason has historically been absent before this year's playoffs - if Richards is out, then I'd rather take a younger option with just as much to prove in the playoffs than Thornton.
I would too, but Its possible SJ would also. I'd rather have Pavelski, but if they wanted to keep their younger guys, maybe they would be willing to move Thornton to give themselves a new look, younger top 6. Thornton could maybe use a change of scenery and Pegula's energy to help him continue his strong playoff performance from this past season. Just trying to think of candidates that aren't the usual suspects.

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McDonald will be 34 by the time the season begins and has been injury-free in only 1 of the past 4 seasons.
I'll admit that one was the worst choice and it would have just been better to just re-sign Connolly for less of a cap hit and no loss of assets.

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06-27-2011, 10:07 AM
  #40
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OK, so I'm wrong about Stastny being a scorer and not a playmaker. Still want him on the Sabres. Still a pipedream unless Regier send them Enroth ++ or Miller.

Pavelski may be their best option but in that case he's being put into the #2 role, not #1.

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06-27-2011, 10:10 AM
  #41
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I'd love Staal. But, I can't see the Pens moving him with Crosby & Malkin have the injury bounce back questions looming over them.

I wonder if the Pens would entertain offers for Malkin. Would that be worth rolling the dice?


Spezza - No thanks. I view him as a higher paid, taller Derek Roy.

Stastny - I'm worried that he's an overhyped/overpaid guy. But, I'd take him over Spezza.
yes, yes it would

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06-27-2011, 10:24 AM
  #42
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06-27-2011, 10:30 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
How successful was that quest since Biron left? It's not just about finding a warm body to throw behind Miller as it is finding one that Ruff has confidence in.
Granted, but it's easier to adequately replace what Enroth has shown he can bring so far, given his limited sample size and the limited amount of games he will play, than replace, say, Ennis. If we want to replace a guy like Ennis we have to draft him and then wait several years. A back-up goalie can be had, possibly a very good one but at least a decent one. If we consider that Enroth is destined to be traded and thus will have to be replaced eventually, that means we have to acquire one eventually unless we get another blue chipper in the pipeline.

All that really waters down to is I'd be very open to trading Enroth if that's what we need to do to get the right center, and I'd do so before moving other assets (save various defenders).

He's basically destined to be traded, in my opinion, after his next contract is up unless they decide to move Miller and go with him.

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06-27-2011, 10:46 AM
  #44
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yes, yes it would
It all depends on what kind of package the Pens would require coming back.

Obviously Myers is untouchable to Sabres fans. But, what if Myers HAS to be in the package from Pittsburgh's POV?

What if they want Ennis, Kassian, and 1 or 2 1sts?

The Pens are going to want a massive return if they are to move Malkin......

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06-27-2011, 11:17 AM
  #45
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It all depends on what kind of package the Pens would require coming back.

Obviously Myers is untouchable to Sabres fans. But, what if Myers HAS to be in the package from Pittsburgh's POV?

What if they want Ennis, Kassian, and 1 or 2 1sts?

The Pens are going to want a massive return if they are to move Malkin......
Malkin is one of the top 5 players in the league if Pitt asked for Ennis, Kassian, and 2 1sts im pretty sure we would take it as long as we knew his knees were 100%. You dont pass up a chance on getting a player like Malkin.

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06-27-2011, 11:26 AM
  #46
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Malkin is one of the top 5 players in the league if Pitt asked for Ennis, Kassian, and 2 1sts im pretty sure we would take it as long as we knew his knees were 100%. You dont pass up a chance on getting a player like Malkin.

Yeah, health would be the biggest factor -- can they show Malkin's knee to be 100% and is Buffalo willing to take on the risk that he's lost a step with that injury?

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06-27-2011, 11:48 AM
  #47
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Yeah, health would be the biggest factor -- can they show Malkin's knee to be 100% and is Buffalo willing to take on the risk that he's lost a step with that injury?
Everything Ive read and heard about him so far this offseason is he is trainging as hard as ever and looks to be back to 100% already so I would definitely look into it but with Crosby still being Injured I cant see them actually looking to trade him.

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06-27-2011, 11:48 AM
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Yeah, health would be the biggest factor -- can they show Malkin's knee to be 100% and is Buffalo willing to take on the risk that he's lost a step with that injury?
The injury and the fact that he's unlikely to be 100% for a while is what makes this a really interesting conversation on what would be worth giving up to get a player that is a dominant #1 center when healthy.

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06-27-2011, 12:00 PM
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I just looked at their salaries. I guess Richards would take Gagne's spot in the top 6 then? Makes sense.
That's the angle the Lightning fans are using to dispel the pessimism most have about their cap situation.

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I'd rather have Pavelski, but if they wanted to keep their younger guys, maybe they would be willing to move Thornton to give themselves a new look, younger top 6.
A San Jose report that came out this weekend after the draft weekend noted that the Setoguchi trade will allow the Sharks to put Pavelski back into the top 6 and thus be more effective; apparently, he was forced to often play out of position or even on the 3rd line because of roster space.

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06-27-2011, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tmack224 View Post
Malkin is one of the top 5 players in the league if Pitt asked for Ennis, Kassian, and 2 1sts im pretty sure we would take it as long as we knew his knees were 100%. You dont pass up a chance on getting a player like Malkin.
I wonder though if he's the right kind of player for the Sabres to mortgage their payroll and team around. There's no denying his elite skill level and playoff performance but he seems to be more of an individualist accustomed to doing it all himself (i.e. Kovalchuk, Ovechkin) than someone who would complement and elevate the play of his linemates and rest of the team. He also seems to be the kind of personality that won't provide the leadership one would expect of a team's best player.

Like I said, his talent and production ability is nothing to sneeze at or not covet but he isn't the kind of slam-dunk, win/win option as others are, IMO.

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