At first I was going to say Wolski could be up there, but then I realized what you were saying about physical presence. I actually think Wolski would work pretty well on a line with Callahan anyway. So I'm right there with you.
Prospal is done. He can't skate and I want no part of him on this team, as much as I like him as far as his attitude and presence are concerned.
- I hope Wolski isn't on the roster next year, so I'm not penciling him in anywhere.
- I don't care if Prospal can't skate. With the linemates, he can still be a productive offensive zone player. Callahan and Anisimov are such fundamentally sound players that Prospal's vision and strong passing technique means he doesn't have to move around much in the offensive zone to create things with them. He was our best playmaker last season when he played. Considering how out of shape he was, that should tell you enough about his usefulness. I'm not concerned with his skating, but rather if he will get injured and miss time. But if that happens later in the season, it just means it'll be a problem you can solve by calling up Hagelin, or moving a guy like MZA to LW (or moving Boyle up to LW).
- I hope Wolski isn't on the roster next year, so I'm not penciling him in anywhere.
- I don't care if Prospal can't skate. With the linemates, he can still be a productive offensive zone player. Callahan and Anisimov are such fundamentally sound players that Prospal's vision and strong passing technique means he doesn't have to move around much in the offensive zone to create things with them. He was our best playmaker last season when he played. Considering how out of shape he was, that should tell you enough about his usefulness. I'm not concerned with his skating, but rather if he will get injured and miss time. But if that happens later in the season, it just means it'll be a problem you can solve by calling up Kreider or Hagelin.
Disagree on both parts. Wolski is a prime example of underrrated IMO.
As for what you said about Prospal, might as well have Kovalev come back for round 3.
I'm most concerned if Richards and Gaborik will find chemistry... Gomez and Drury were both brought in for that and it didn't work...Richards is 31 and has a concussion history...
Even if Boyle doesnt work out on the 1st line, the moral of the story is that if Fedotenko is brought back, the Rangers are set on LW. They dont need to sign Gagne or Jokinen.
No. Depth is extremely important, as evidenced by the two teams that made it to the finals.
If one of our top 6 gets hurt, do we have anybody you would trust to move into there and be effective? I know it's an extreme example, but thing Rich Peverly moving into Nathan Horton's spot.
Depth is extremely important here. The Rangers need to bring in someone besides Fedotenko and I don't think Prospal is the answer. I was having this conversation last night. The Rangers need to bring in another guy who is ideally a 3rd line player but doesn't look out of place on the 2nd line on a limited basis. There are actually a bunch of these guys on the market right now. Ryder, Sturm, Upshall, Larose, Torres, Miettinen, Vrbata. You know, your typical 15-20 goal guys. Maybe a flyer on Kobasew for real cheap, but probably not. (obviously, Sturm scored more when healthy, but that's kinda where I see him now)
It's an interesting thought at any rate. If you can get a guy on a 1-2 year deal, I think you do it.
I'm most concerned if Richards and Gaborik will find chemistry... Gomez and Drury were both brought in for that and it didn't work...Richards is 31 and has a concussion history...
Gomez and Drury were PsOS who were forced into playing a bigger role than capable. Both of those players were at BEST, 2nd liners with Drury being a much better 3rd liner. Richards is actually a 1st liner and can thrive with Gaborik, vice versa. Also he doesn't have a concussion history... He had one concussion last year missed 10 games, big deal. He came back and ended the year on a 6 game point streak. He's fine.
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Jaime Lannister has better hands than Brian Boyle.
Gomez and Drury were PsOS who were forced into playing a bigger role than capable. Both of those players were at BEST, 2nd liners with Drury being a much better 3rd liner. Richards is actually a 1st liner and can thrive with Gaborik, vice versa. Also he doesn't have a concussion history... He had one concussion last year missed 10 games, big deal. He came back and ended the year on a 6 game point streak. He's fine.
I hope you're right, but I'm also hoping Gaborik is 100%... he was definitely hurting late-season.
If the Rangers sign Richards and MDZ recovers to become a top-4 offensive defenseman, the left wing will be our Achilles heel. It will be the one thing stopping us from being a premier contender. Fedotenko? Avery? Boyle? Look at our first (or second) line options.
I think the Rangers should give WW a chance on the first line, then trade for someone closer to the deadline if he fails.
No. Depth is extremely important, as evidenced by the two teams that made it to the finals.
If one of our top 6 gets hurt, do we have anybody you would trust to move into there and be effective? I know it's an extreme example, but thing Rich Peverly moving into Nathan Horton's spot.
Depth is extremely important here. The Rangers need to bring in someone besides Fedotenko and I don't think Prospal is the answer. I was having this conversation last night. The Rangers need to bring in another guy who is ideally a 3rd line player but doesn't look out of place on the 2nd line on a limited basis. There are actually a bunch of these guys on the market right now. Ryder, Sturm, Upshall, Larose, Torres, Miettinen, Vrbata. You know, your typical 15-20 goal guys. Maybe a flyer on Kobasew for real cheap, but probably not. (obviously, Sturm scored more when healthy, but that's kinda where I see him now)
It's an interesting thought at any rate. If you can get a guy on a 1-2 year deal, I think you do it.
The player you are talking about, IMO, is the type of player you pick up at the deadline if you are doing well. Otherwise, give Hagelin, Weise, etc. shots if need be. Christensen and Avery are still reserve players in that line-up, they can be top-6 forwards for a short amount of time.
I would rather see Hagelin get 10 games over someone who won't be around past this season.
Agree with what most of what is being said here, Boyle to the top line, keep Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan together etc.
Except I really don't think it is time to give up on Wolski. He is one season removed from 23 goals 65 points, is in a contract/career breaking year, and is clearly putting in the work this offseason. He knows what this upcoming season means for his career. He wants to stay in New York. He brought it in the playoffs. Everyone is talking about offensive depth, yet people want to buy this guy out. He's only 25 years old, he is still trying to put it together. Wolski is a great talent, a lot of teams forgot that it takes time for a player to progress. He knows what the coach will be expecting of him, and he'll bring it. This is his make or break year, lets not break it for him before he gets a chance.
If we are getting 20 goals from Wolski and Stepan, minimum 20 goals from everyone on the pack line, and a real first line with Boyle-Richards-Gaborik, we are more than just a good offense.
Wolski ended the year playing on the 4th line and averaged only 12 minutes a game during the playoffs, the least for any forward other than Drury. Why would Torts be so quick to put Wolski back on the 1st line? Wolski would have to bust his ass and really impress in training camp for Torts to even consider him as a contender for the 1st line.
The player you are talking about, IMO, is the type of player you pick up at the deadline if you are doing well. Otherwise, give Hagelin, Weise, etc. shots if need be. Christensen and Avery are still reserve players in that line-up, they can be top-6 forwards for a short amount of time.
I would rather see Hagelin get 10 games over someone who won't be around past this season.
I would rather see Hagelin in the lineup when he's ready to be and not sooner. We always talk about adding youth to the lineup, but if they sign Richards, we need to have some balance and add some depth. Avery should never be in our top-6, even for a short amount of time. That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to avoid. I agree about Christensen. I just don't think that adding another vet to our forward group will get in the way of development of our youth. Not with Tortorella. I'd rather have one of these guys than Prospal, who is a liability outside of a top 6 role and is limited within that, both due to his skating. Plus, moving Prust down to the 4th line is a good thing. I love Brandon Prust, but in a solidly built forward group, he's a 4th liner. Kinda like these 3rd liners who can play on the 2nd line, he's really a 4th liner who can play on the 3rd.
I'm always careful with setting lineups and combos before the season starts. For a lot of reasons, but mainly because of chemistry. You can have a 4th liner work on a first line. You just dont know why sometimes.
But ill entertain the discussion. Not against Dubi being on the first. Why not. He gets in there on the wing, protects the puck, can distribute, playmake. But Richards is the real playmaker, and in a perfect world, it would be nice to have a right-handed shot on that side for the passes coming cross ice. But now you're getting nitpicky, and thats exactly why its not necessary to get crazy with combos.
Dubinksy might as well be better served doing his thing on his "own" line, where he really makes his presence felt. Gaborik and Richards are going to command so much of the ice (provided they are actually on the same line, which is a completely different discussion in itself. Our luck - Gabby has absolutely no chemistry with him - and that might very well be the case) so its almost like you want to put a "filler" guy up there who crashes the net well.
And to be honest, im not sure if line combos mean much during the season either, given that the Rangers coach is John "i change lines like i change my underwear" Tortorella. He feels the game from the bench and whether you agree with it or not, his style is complete in-game management with his lines. I'm not sure how Torts used Richards when he had him, and what kind of players he surrounded him with - but a guy like Fedotenko might fit with those two simply because hes "in" the play, is around the puck, is involved in a lot of scoring chances, is repsonsible defensively and is trusted. He was also involved in more scoring chances than most of the players on the team last year.
Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 06-27-2011 at 12:36 PM.
Disagree on both parts. Wolski is a prime example of underrrated IMO.
As for what you said about Prospal, might as well have Kovalev come back for round 3.
It's hard to underrate a player that only shows up to play 1 out of every in 4 games. 75% of the games he plays, it's like being shorthanded when he's on the ice because he doesn't do anything. I hope to never see him in a Rangers jersey again. No denying his talent, but he doesn't care, so he doesn't belong here.
The Prospal-Kovalev comparison is silly (although I'd bring back Kovalev, because Kovalev is still a better passer and playmaker than 95% of the players in the league today, if not more, and while he also doesn't care, he at least seems to try hard when playing with good players in important situations). Prospal scored 23 points in 29 games on a terrible offensive team missing its best all-around forward and probably second or third best offensive player, and this was after he missed the entire season and barely skated before beginning play.
And to be honest, im not sure if line combos mean much during the season as either, given that the Rangers coach is John "i change lines like i change my underwear" Tortorella. He feels the game from the bench and whether you agree with it or not, his style is complete in-game management with his lines.
This is also true and I'm going to use it to reinforce my point (even if you don't agree with me HBNYC)... we need as many quality parts for Tortorella's line shuffling as possible...
And to be honest, im not sure if line combos mean much during the season as either, given that the Rangers coach is John "i change lines like i change my underwear" Tortorella. He feels the game from the bench and whether you agree with it or not, his style is complete in-game management with his lines.
This, like the myth regarding our "system," is likely to change if the team gets Richards. The lines changed all the time because the team sucked dicks offensively and Tortorella would get frustrated and constantly shake things up praying to find some kind of magic combo that worked.
I don't think that happens nearly as much if the offense is working.
This, like the myth regarding our "system," is likely to change if the team gets Richards. The lines changed all the time because the team sucked dicks offensively and Tortorella would get frustrated and constantly shake things up praying to find some kind of magic combo that worked.
I don't think that happens nearly as much if the offense is working.
True. Although I think our system is likely to be adjusted heavily whether we get Richards or not...
Wolski ended the year playing on the 4th line and averaged only 12 minutes a game during the playoffs, the least for any forward other than Drury. Why would Torts be so quick to put Wolski back on the 1st line? Wolski would have to bust his ass and really impress in training camp for Torts to even consider him as a contender for the 1st line.
How about bc of the fact that when Wolski was put on a line that enabled him to succeed he was able to produce(12pts in 18games). Put Wolski with offensively talented players and he will continue to do so. In order for players to succeed in the nhl, they need to be put in the right positions. The reason he played so poorly after is because the line he was on was seperated.. Stepan hit the rookie wall, and zucca went down to the ahl.
You talk about that 4th line like it wasnt successful.. Wolski with Boyle and Prust actually had the most offensive pressure in the playoffs and scored the most pts on our team. I know its not saying much but i think it shows that Wolski wants to be here, and seems like a changed man, especially since hes getting skating lessons from Underhill.
My thinking is that you HAVE to spread out your scoring otherwise we AGAIN become a one line team.
Our 1st line has loads of speed, playmaking, and scoring ability. If wolski doesnt work out, we can add him in a deal or move him back down with Stepan.
You keep the Pack line together since they were the most productive and had the most chemistry together. Now we have not 1, but 2 lines that can score
3rd line is a young talented two way line that can pot some goals
4th line is a shutdown line that plays outstanding on both sides of the puck
I'm always careful with setting lineups and combos before the season starts. For a lot of reasons, but mainly because of chemistry. You can have a 4th liner work on a first line. You just dont know why sometimes.
But ill entertain the discussion. Not against Dubi being on the first. Why not. He gets in there on the wing, protects the puck, can distribute, playmake. But Richards is the real playmaker, and in a perfect world, it would be nice to have a right-handed shot on that side for the passes coming cross ice. But now you're getting nitpicky, and thats exactly why its not necessary to get crazy with combos.
Dubinksy might as well be better served doing his thing on his "own" line, where he really makes his presence felt. Gaborik and Richards are going to command so much of the ice (provided they are actually on the same line, which is a completely different discussion in itself. Our luck - Gabby has absolutely no chemistry with him - and that might very well be the case) so its almost like you want to put a "filler" guy up there who crashes the net well.
And to be honest, im not sure if line combos mean much during the season as either, given that the Rangers coach is John "i change lines like i change my underwear" Tortorella. He feels the game from the bench and whether you agree with it or not, his style is complete in-game management with his lines.
After reading the bolded part, I really like that idea. With Richards and Gaborik on the 1st line against other teams 1st pairing, having a 2nd line of Duby-Arty-Cally can do very well against the 2nd pairing.
Unlike last year where Gaborik was terrible and the 1st pair was up against the Wolfpack line, if we had a real threat of a 1st line, I think Duby-Arty-Cally could thrive next year against 2nd pairings.
It's hard to underrate a player that only shows up to play 1 out of every in 4 games. 75% of the games he plays, it's like being shorthanded when he's on the ice because he doesn't do anything. I hope to never see him in a Rangers jersey again. No denying his talent, but he doesn't care, so he doesn't belong here.
The Prospal-Kovalev comparison is silly (although I'd bring back Kovalev, because Kovalev is still a better passer and playmaker than 95% of the players in the league today, if not more, and while he also doesn't care, he at least seems to try hard when playing with good players in important situations). Prospal scored 23 points in 29 games on a terrible offensive team missing its best all-around forward and probably second or third best offensive player, and this was after he missed the entire season and barely skated before beginning play.
Id much prefer to give Wolski a chance this season. He seems like a changed man this offseason, realizing that he needs to put in the work to play here and be productive. He also seems to have found a niche with some players like Boyle where he can finally feel at home. I say lets give the talented 25yo 50pt player a chance first with a fresh start and a new begining with Torts Camp, before booting him off the team.
Ehh i really want anything to do with Prospal anymore. The guy is broken down, cant skate, or do anything physically. Yes im proud that he was able to get 23pts in 29games down the stretch but you are forgetting that any player that misses the majority of the regular season is going to have alot in the tank for those final games. But i wonder, what happened to him during the playoffs? He became what he has been, a broken down player who doesnt have what it takes anymore to go through a full 82game season and then the playoffs. The guy ran out of gas after 29 games. Not interested anymore, plus he blocks room and development from our other players who may be ready to come up.
This, like the myth regarding our "system," is likely to change if the team gets Richards. The lines changed all the time because the team sucked dicks offensively and Tortorella would get frustrated and constantly shake things up praying to find some kind of magic combo that worked.
I don't think that happens nearly as much if the offense is working.
I do agree, to a certain extent. With Richards I think you can put anyone with him - and stick to it. With Gaborik, he's babied. He constantly is having guys shuffled in and away from him to see what "works best", when in reality he should be like Richards and make everyone around him better.
It is a little bit different though considering one is a playmaking center and the other sniper on the wing. A little apples and oranges, but in the event that Gaborik DOESNT fit with Richards... then i expect the offense to still be a little wacky and in that case we may still be seeing Torts switch up the lines often.
After reading the bolded part, I really like that idea. With Richards and Gaborik on the 1st line against other teams 1st pairing, having a 2nd line of Duby-Arty-Cally can do very well against the 2nd pairing.
Unlike last year where Gaborik was terrible and the 1st pair was up against the Wolfpack line, if we had a real threat of a 1st line, I think Duby-Arty-Cally could thrive next year against 2nd pairings.
AHH so people are finally catching on to this.. Good to see! By putting Dubinsky with Richards and Gaborik you are pretty much making us a 1 line team again. With Dubinsky staying on the pack line it gives us 2 very much needed scoring lines. Spread the scoring out and make more than 1 lethal line
AHH so people are finally catching on to this.. Good to see! By putting Dubinsky with Richards and Gaborik you are pretty much making us a 1 line team again. With Dubinsky staying on the pack line it gives us 2 very much needed scoring lines. Spread the scoring out and make more than 1 lethal line
Pretty much, yea. Taking Duby off the Wolfpack line turns us into a one line team. We either need to sign a LW or go with Wolski on the 1st line if we want balanced scoring.
I think Torts knows this and hopefully so does Sather.
ufa)-Prust
