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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix XXXVIII: Hulsizer Pulls Bid For Coyotes; UPD 2 unnamed interested buyers

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Old
06-28-2011, 01:43 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Overkamp View Post
JB will never own an NHL team. Never.
Wow, this sounds very similar to something I read on these boards in months/years past about a certain Canadian city's NHL aspirations. Never say never. JB is still a relatively young man also.

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06-28-2011, 01:54 AM
  #102
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If the Coyotes aren't a playoff team next year, I don't see any potential suitor stepping forward.

On top of that, a poor on on-ice product means less fans, which in turns hurts Westgate's changes of staying viable.

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06-28-2011, 02:02 AM
  #103
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Ye olde nemesis, GWI, got a huge victory today in the US Supreme Court dealing with Arizona's Campaign Finance Law's matching funds http://www.npr.org/2011/06/27/137455...gn-finance-law

I think they definitely won't allow anything that looks like changing city revenue streams and/or "gifts" with that kind of result track record.

Does not bode well for potential new lease.

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06-28-2011, 02:04 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by KJP View Post
Agreed. I don't buy the 'Balsille needs to wait in the shadows for a while and just be a good boy' line we got recently, there's no way this guy will ever own an NHL team.
He might not but his business buddies will. My guess is that Balsy will try to own a team vicariously through someone else.

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06-28-2011, 03:00 AM
  #105
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It's not the fans fault. The true fans that go are great. There just aren't enough. Phoenix is as hot as the sun, it's not a HOCKEY town. No one cares.
To me, this is the elephant in the room (and not just regarding the Coyotes - it could apply to other franchises as well). Phoenix, by nature of geography will never be the hockey hotbed that Toronto or Montreal or even towns like Buffalo & Minneapolis/St Paul are. On top of geography, different markets have different cultures. I live in a city which is notoriously bad for attendance in professional sports, but is a great TV market... so even if there _was_ a broad interest in NHL here, we'd still struggle.

How many dedicated fans are there in Phoenix to make a profitable business model work? Giving away tickets is all well and good, and cheap tickets is nice for casual fans, but if the club can't find a way to encourage enough Phoenicians to pay good money then what hope is there, long term? And by extension, who would pay money to lose money on the franchise (other than CoG )? If it's going to take 30 years to turn the market into a real hockey town, that's a hard sell to _any_ investor.

Okay obviously the situation is a lot more complex than just the nature of the market, but I suspect that a large part of the reason why this situation is as bad as it is (and why noone wants to go near the Coyotes in Phoenix) is because the hockey market itself is a bad business proposition. The NHL is more optimistic about the hockey market in Phoenix (or desperate to not concede defeat) than any potential buyers, methinks.

Sucks for the (too few) fans in Phoenix, of course

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06-28-2011, 05:56 AM
  #106
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I think Glendale did too much, not too little. They went over the edge with financial assistance to the point that it became potentially illegal. If they had been a bit more restrained I wonder if they would have had better results.
If you're referring to the Hulsizer deal, that I believe was borne out of the city's desperation following the collapse of the IEH deal and the deadline following it. Even the 12/14 agreement had a ton of loose ends.

The JR deal wasn't great, but by walking away they painted themselves into a corner.

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06-28-2011, 07:56 AM
  #107
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He might not but his business buddies will. My guess is that Balsy will try to own a team vicariously through someone else.
I think that shareholders would like to see 'Balsy' focusing on his company right at the moment.

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06-28-2011, 08:14 AM
  #108
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So, more than two weeks?


The Phoenix situation is looking extremely dire at this point, and I think Glendale's decision to prop things up for another year is looking more and more foolish. After two years, there is still no buyer for the team, and those questionable subsidies that were proposed for potential buyers are never going to happen. It probably would have been best for everyone involved if they pulled the plug months ago. Instead, there will be a terrible, probably basement team next year that will not attract any feasible ownership group. The big problem in the NHL is that there doesn't appear to be any easy place to relocate like Winnipeg was.

Here's to yet another year of the Phoenix Coyotes saga!

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06-28-2011, 08:23 AM
  #109
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The owner, the mayor and the popullation of Quebec are waiting for this... except the left wing politicians

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06-28-2011, 08:34 AM
  #110
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I see this team going to KC or Houston (which I don't think are bad markets). Both markets would be good for division re-alignment. Also, if chicago goes east with detroit then the blues will have a natural rivalry with KC. Also kc/colorado rivalry could be good due to proximity.

Houston has hockey history, and texas is just one of those states that seems to being going with the grass roots hockey culture. Kind of like California. The problem with Phoenix and Atlanta are that they are bad sports markets not just bad hockey markets.

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06-28-2011, 08:38 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by badinsults View Post
The big problem in the NHL is that there doesn't appear to be any easy place to relocate like Winnipeg was.
That's about the sum of it.

What happens if CoG wise up & stop subsidising next year? Assuming that Hamilton is out (unwelcome owner & inadequate arena), that there's no owner in KC or Houston and Quebec's still trying to get an arena built what would the NHL do then? I doubt they'd fold the team - too much to lose & a buttload of negative publicity.

It'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall at that BoG meeting

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06-28-2011, 09:05 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by FacePalm1967 View Post
I see this team going to KC or Houston (which I don't think are bad markets). Both markets would be good for division re-alignment. Also, if chicago goes east with detroit then the blues will have a natural rivalry with KC. Also kc/colorado rivalry could be good due to proximity.

Houston has hockey history, and texas is just one of those states that seems to being going with the grass roots hockey culture. Kind of like California. The problem with Phoenix and Atlanta are that they are bad sports markets not just bad hockey markets.
Thank You!!! They are bad sports markets period. They don't support it like in NYC and Chicago.

This is bigger than the Coyotes.

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06-28-2011, 09:12 AM
  #113
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38 threads? 1000 posts per thread?

Everybody loves a train wreck.

I still maintain that Bettman should have sat down with Balsillie long ago, before this fiasco, and come to some arrangement with him.

Give QC back their team, give Southern Ontario another team or fight to the bitter end to maintain the facade that hockey can work in the desert. Each potential buyer appears to be less capable of purchasing an NHL team than the last. Maybe a successful McDonald's franchisee will be the next to step up to the plate.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bettman's treatment of Balsillie is in some way responsible for the NHL's difficulty in finding solutions to their non-traditional market problems.

I understand that this post is perhaps discontinuous with the current line of thought in this thread but please allow me my humble 2 cents and move on.

My sympathy goes out to Phoenix fans. You shouldn't have to explain or justify your support for your team or your reactions to this NHL train wreck. Its MHO that Bettman could have headed this off years ago.

As another poster said 'the customer is always right'. Balsillie and the fans are or were customers.

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06-28-2011, 09:25 AM
  #114
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I still maintain that Bettman should have sat down with Balsillie long ago, before this fiasco, and come to some arrangement with him.
Pride's a beeotch ain't it?

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06-28-2011, 09:33 AM
  #115
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Wow. The worm has turned, once again. I feel horribly for the fans in Phoenix and region, as it looks like your team is utterly without hope. Hulsizer is out for good... Balsillie is persona non grata... Reinsdorf wanted a CFD which is simply impossible with Westgate on life support... who's left? Seriously? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

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06-28-2011, 09:33 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Dalton View Post
38 threads? 1000 posts per thread?

Everybody loves a train wreck.

I still maintain that Bettman should have sat down with Balsillie long ago, before this fiasco, and come to some arrangement with him.

Give QC back their team, give Southern Ontario another team or fight to the bitter end to maintain the facade that hockey can work in the desert. Each potential buyer appears to be less capable of purchasing an NHL team than the last. Maybe a successful McDonald's franchisee will be the next to step up to the plate.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bettman's treatment of Balsillie is in some way responsible for the NHL's difficulty in finding solutions to their non-traditional market problems.

I understand that this post is perhaps discontinuous with the current line of thought in this thread but please allow me my humble 2 cents and move on.

My sympathy goes out to Phoenix fans. You shouldn't have to explain or justify your support for your team or your reactions to this NHL train wreck. Its MHO that Bettman could have headed this off years ago.

As another poster said 'the customer is always right'. Balsillie and the fans are or were customers.
I hope there is no second team in southern ontario for one. Don't need one, and it would not be beneficial to Ottawa which is in the same province and are already experiencing a down period with attendance. I think 7 teams in Canada are perfect personally stretch out to 5 provinces.

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06-28-2011, 09:41 AM
  #117
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What does Ottawa have to do with it? Their attendance sucks because they built the arena in the middle of nowhere. Ottawa doesn't lose out because there's a team in TO and they wouldn't lose out with one in Kitchener or Hamilton.

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06-28-2011, 09:55 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton View Post
38 threads? 1000 posts per thread?

Everybody loves a train wreck.

I still maintain that Bettman should have sat down with Balsillie long ago, before this fiasco, and come to some arrangement with him.

Give QC back their team, give Southern Ontario another team or fight to the bitter end to maintain the facade that hockey can work in the desert. Each potential buyer appears to be less capable of purchasing an NHL team than the last. Maybe a successful McDonald's franchisee will be the next to step up to the plate.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bettman's treatment of Balsillie is in some way responsible for the NHL's difficulty in finding solutions to their non-traditional market problems.

I understand that this post is perhaps discontinuous with the current line of thought in this thread but please allow me my humble 2 cents and move on.

My sympathy goes out to Phoenix fans. You shouldn't have to explain or justify your support for your team or your reactions to this NHL train wreck. Its MHO that Bettman could have headed this off years ago.

As another poster said 'the customer is always right'. Balsillie and the fans are or were customers.
I agree. But The NHL does not understand this. At All.

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06-28-2011, 09:56 AM
  #119
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What does Ottawa have to do with it? Their attendance sucks because they built the arena in the middle of nowhere. Ottawa doesn't lose out because there's a team in TO and they wouldn't lose out with one in Kitchener or Hamilton.
The only reason we aren't talking about relocation of teams in Canada is because our dollar is overvalued and our economic conditions aren't as bad as other countries. To sustain franchises in the long term you have to take into effect future economic downtimes. Not all the proposed relocated franchises to canada will survive. Stop drinking the tsn/media coolaid they aren't economists or in finance. They make money with their opinions. As quick as teams pop up they could easily fall off. Imagine if balsallie got a team.. look at RIM that company is going into a downwards spiral and people are comparing them to Nokia. Imagine if he has to sell the team? Who would buy it? It's not like Canada has a lot of wealthy people that don't already own a team.

Ottawa's fanbase is not strong. They already have to deal with being in between Leafs fans and Habs fans. They will become the NJ devils of Canada ... without the success.


Last edited by TorontoSports: 06-28-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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06-28-2011, 10:02 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Its not that Phoenix is a bad hockey, its that is a bad sports market period. The Cards, D backs will draw files when they aren't winning.
I don't have the impression that Phoenix is a bad sports market. It has NFL, MLB and NBA franchises, several PGA tournaments, NASCAR and university sports that draw large crowds as well. I think the NHL could easily be viable in this market in the long-term, but for a variety of reasons the conditions just aren't right. There is a lot of competition for the entertainment dollar, and with the economy so down that real property is selling for fraction of its past worth, it's amazing that as many Phoenix-based franchises/events are doing as well as they are. No surprise that the Coyotes are at the brink of leaving under the present circumstances. If the NHL were willing to really invest in its own product in the Phoenix market, I think it would see things turn around. However, it shouldn't expect the taxpayer to foot the bill.

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06-28-2011, 10:04 AM
  #121
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I think the NHL. might not have any other choice but sell the coyotes to Jim Balsille because it is my opinion that the NHL. wants to get this dead weight in which I mean the coyotes off there hands as fast as possible & if Balsilles offer still stands this deal can be done quick & easy . As for mlse. & the Sabres well they will get say between 25 - 50 million each as a pay off so goodbye Phoenix hello Hamilton .

RIP. Phoenix Coyotes 1996 - 2012

Hamilton Tigers 1920 - 1925 - reborn 2012
Go buy a newspaper my friend, by the end of this season Balsille may not have enough money to go see the Coyotes, let alone buy them (obvious exaggeration)... He is no longer the seemingly untouchable Billionaire he once was - His net worth has dropped considerably in the last couple of months as RIM slowly declines into oblivion (...once again, exaggerated - but not quite as much as the first time!!!).

His current Net Worth is less than $800M and dropping (from $1.81B in 2010) - IMO, he might be considerably more hesitant this time around about shelling out $170M to buy a terrible, debt-ridden hockey team and dropping $100M to renovate an aging Copps Coliseum before the league would even approve him relocating there. Not to mention the relocation fees to pay off Toronto & Buffalo (which would likely be a small fortune) to allow the relocation to commence.

IMHO, I wouldn't count on JB to be your White Knight... Even if the league offered it to him!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FacePalm1967 View Post
The only reason we aren't talking about relocation of teams in Canada is because our dollar is overvalued and our economic conditions aren't as bad as other countries. 1To sustain franchises in the long term you have to take into effect future economic downtimes. Not all the proposed relocated franchises to canada will survive. Stop drinking the tsn/media coolaid they aren't economists or in finance. They make money with their opinions. As quick as teams pop up they could easily fall off. Imagine if balsallie got a team.. look at RIM that company is going into a downwards spiral and people are comparing them to Nokia. Imagine if he has to sell the team? 2 Who would buy it? It's not like Canada has a lot of wealthy people that don't already own a team. 3. Ottawa's fanbase is not strong. They already have to deal with being in between Leafs fans and Habs fans. They will become the NJ devils of Canada ... without the success.
1 Canada's teams are very well supported by a generally ravenous fan base - Canada would never have lost a team in the modern era (Jets/Nords) if not for Politics/Arena stuff. Even when our dollar was crap, the fans still filled the Barns. Strong Markets survive!!!

2 Do you really think the BoG rejected him just because he's a dick? The BoG likes people with Old Money, not just Net Worth - JB is Case and point, Net Worth can be lost very quickly. Less so with old/established money. The league seems to be very choosy about Canadian ownership (thankfully), Heck, they made the richest man in Canada wait years for his team!!!

3 Canada actually has a lot of very wealthy people who don't own hockey teams... terrible generalization!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_net_worth


Last edited by Blitz: 06-28-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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06-28-2011, 10:18 AM
  #122
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next summer, PHX and FLA fold.

League retracts to 28 teams, 4 divisions

dispersal draft for players on dissbandoned teams.

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06-28-2011, 10:18 AM
  #123
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As of March this year Canada had 24 Billionaires. Given the interest in hockey this country I suspect the NHL could find a couple to run teams that could whether the economic cycle better than some current owners of NA sports teams.

Here are the top 15

TOP 15 Canadian Billionaires

1 David Thomson and family, $23B, media (The Thomson Corp.)

2 Galen Weston and family, $7.1B, retail (Loblaw)

3 Jim Pattison, $5.8B, media, retail (Jim Pattison Group)

4 Paul Desmarais, $4.5B, finance (Power Corp.)

5 James and Arthur Irving, $3.5B, oil (Irving Group of Companies)

6 Emanuele (Lino) Saputo, $3.4B, dairy (Saputo Inc.)

7 Jeffrey Skoll, $3.2B (eBay)

8 David Azrieli and family, $3.1B, shopping malls (Canpro Investments)

9 Bernard (Barry) Sherman, $2.9B, pharmaceuticals (Apotex Inc.)

10 Guy Laliberte, $2.5B, Cirque du Soleil

11 Clayton Riddell, $2.5B, oil and gas (Paramount Resources Ltd.)

12 Wallace McCain, $2.3B, food (McCain Foods Ltd.)

13 N. Murray Edwards, $2.2B, oil and gas (Canadian Natural Resources)

14 Charles Bronfman, $2B, liquor (Seagram)

15 Daryl Katz, $2B, pharmacies (Katz Group)

If there's a will there's a way.


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06-28-2011, 10:30 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebekoi View Post
The owner, the mayor and the popullation of Quebec are waiting for this... except the left wing politicians
how Ironic that it's the right wing politicians playing watchdog over NHL business in Phoenix and the left wingers in Quebec.

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06-28-2011, 10:34 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by FacePalm1967 View Post
The only reason we aren't talking about relocation of teams in Canada is because our dollar is overvalued and our economic conditions aren't as bad as other countries. To sustain franchises in the long term you have to take into effect future economic downtimes. Not all the proposed relocated franchises to canada will survive. Stop drinking the tsn/media coolaid they aren't economists or in finance. They make money with their opinions. As quick as teams pop up they could easily fall off. Imagine if balsallie got a team.. look at RIM that company is going into a downwards spiral and people are comparing them to Nokia. Imagine if he has to sell the team? Who would buy it? It's not like Canada has a lot of wealthy people that don't already own a team.

Ottawa's fanbase is not strong. They already have to deal with being in between Leafs fans and Habs fans. They will become the NJ devils of Canada ... without the success.
I wouldn't cry for the RIM founders.

Research In Motion executives Jim Balsillie and Mike Lazaridis had their net worth slashed by a combined $800M to $3.6B


In 2000, Balsillie provided $10 million of personal funds towards the founding of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, adding to the $100 million already contributed by fellow RIM executive Mike Lazaridis.

In 2002, Balsillie founded the Centre for International Governance Innovation with $30 million of personal funds.

In 2007, Balsillie donated $50 million to the University of Waterloo, Wilfrid Laurier University and the Centre for International Governance Innovation as part of a $100 million initiative to create the Balsillie School of International Affairs.

Last year? He offered $50M to the CoG and $212M for a bankrupt (worthless?) hockey team belonging to a league facing many problems due to ill advised expansion into non-traditional markets.

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