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Old
06-29-2011, 08:54 AM
  #51
tfong
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Actually if we could get a decent return on Kipper, we could use him to retool the team quite quickly.

At some point in time I think Kipper will leave Calgary anyways, I don't believe he will retire as a Flame.

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06-29-2011, 09:14 AM
  #52
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Sure, if Vokoun stays. There are mixed reports as to whether or not that is going to happen.
I'm just saying if they really need to hit the cap floor, they should just sign Vokoun for the $8M and keep their other assets instead of getting Kiprusoff and Hagman for the same price.

On another note, I think we should trade Kiprusoff when the time is right (not now necessarily). He has been a rock for the franchise, but to be honest I don't see us contending this year. Goaltending has become a 'cheap' position, there are a glut of very good goalies. There are only a handful of consistently great goalies. I would pay a premium for the latter, but at Kiprusoff's age and the number of games we've played him the last few years, I don't know if he warrants a top goaltender price anymore. Younger and cheaper might be more effective for the franchise.

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06-29-2011, 09:15 AM
  #53
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Playing armchair GM, what do people think of the following trade proposal, assuming Kiprusoff was indeed on the block:

To Washington: Kiprusoff, Bourque, and Stajan

To Calgary: Semin, Neuvirth, and Alzner.

The Flames would free about roughly $3M in cap space. May need to add a pick or a prospect on Calgary's side.

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06-29-2011, 09:19 AM
  #54
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Washington would never do it.

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06-29-2011, 09:21 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Rezim View Post
Washington would never do it.
Why not? Semin appears to be on the way out and he only has 1 year left. Varlamov is most likely returning to Russia to play in the KHL, leaving the Caps with Neuvirth and Holtby. Goaltending has been a huge Achilles' heel for the Caps along with the lack of grit. This deal would help address both weaknesses for the Caps.

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06-29-2011, 09:28 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Why not? Semin appears to be on the way out and he only has 1 year left. Varlamov is most likely returning to Russia to play in the KHL, leaving the Caps with Neuvirth and Holtby. Goaltending has been a huge Achilles' heel for the Caps along with the lack of grit. This deal would help address both weaknesses for the Caps.
I'd say the kicker is Alzner. There's no way that a package of Bourque+Kipper would get him even if it fills some of Washington's needs. Add anything else in there and Washington will just flat out hang up.

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06-29-2011, 09:29 AM
  #57
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I think Washington would do something around Bourque, but I couldn't see Alzner coming our way as the opposite to Stajan. I think Calgary would have to add to the trade if Washington didn't hang up the phone, first.

Semin wasn't terrible this past season. He actually somewhat showed up during the playoffs, having 6 points in 9 games and a +2 Rating. With that said, he's also only got one year left on his deal and if Washington doesn't re-sign him, I'd rather go for Semin in the FA market next season when Calgary has a few boatloads worth of cap space.

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06-29-2011, 09:36 AM
  #58
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I think some of you are failing to see that Karlsson's numbers were slightly better than Kipper's last year. This considering it was either mop up duty, and B2B games. In all fairness, B2B's, the team in front of the goalie is more tired and aren't likely on their game as much as a non-B2B game, as well, Karlsson was never able to get into a groove and play a couple games in a row. On the otherside of it, the mop up duty, once a team has let in 5-7 goals, and the back-up comes in, the opposition lets up a little, sometimes. I still think the aforementioned siutuation out weighs the latter.

The other side of it too, look what Brent's system was able to accomplish in NJ when Brodeur went down for like 50 games and he ran with Clemmenson, they set the Devils record for points in a season. Clemmenson was brought up from the AHL that year.

I agree with the posters that Kipper is still viewed for his cup run and not his past 3 years. It's time to move on, get something for him before he's worthless. It's all about asset management. Riding him into the ground is not good asset management.

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06-29-2011, 09:38 AM
  #59
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Probably would have to take Stajan and Alzner out of the equation then. Kiprusoff and Bourque for Semin and Neuvirth wouldn't be a bad deal for either team.

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06-29-2011, 09:59 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
Probably would have to take Stajan and Alzner out of the equation then. Kiprusoff and Bourque for Semin and Neuvirth wouldn't be a bad deal for either team.
Considering this is HFboards, we'll have to add a high pick to offset Neuvirth's potential with Kipper's contract and age.

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06-29-2011, 12:28 PM
  #61
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Would like to quote a lot of people because this thread is actually pretty interesting, usually when Benny Thatch starts a thread, (insert joke ending here).

There have been a lot of good points raised although the Caps/Flames trade isn't working for me. I don't think it would happen(the original proposal). I for one would have a raging you know what, If we could somehow acquire Semin(too funny in my dirty mind lol). Seriously though, he plays the kind of hockey people like to watch.

I have a couple of thoughts/ questions however:

More than one poster mentioned that Kipper won't finish or that we should trade him before he is worthless, or that he will leave in his last year anyway. As far as I thought, he loved Calgary and wouldn't choose to leave if the question arose. I'm inclined to think that he might take a discount to stay if asked.

1) Does anyone know of any speculation that he wants out in the first place?

2) If we dropped his playing time and gave Karl more time( believe this should be the natural thing to do), would it keep him fresh enough to be the playoff goalie we all know he is?

3) Does anyone care to look up goalie ages and when they are usually hot in their careers? Tim Thomas is 37 I believe and he just won the cup with a Vezina kicker..

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06-29-2011, 12:44 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPRSRPUNKS View Post
Would like to quote a lot of people because this thread is actually pretty interesting, usually when Benny Thatch starts a thread, (insert joke ending here).

There have been a lot of good points raised although the Caps/Flames trade isn't working for me. I don't think it would happen(the original proposal). I for one would have a raging you know what, If we could somehow acquire Semin(too funny in my dirty mind lol). Seriously though, he plays the kind of hockey people like to watch.

I have a couple of thoughts/ questions however:

More than one poster mentioned that Kipper won't finish or that we should trade him before he is worthless, or that he will leave in his last year anyway. As far as I thought, he loved Calgary and wouldn't choose to leave if the question arose. I'm inclined to think that he might take a discount to stay if asked.

1) Does anyone know of any speculation that he wants out in the first place?

2) If we dropped his playing time and gave Karl more time( believe this should be the natural thing to do), would it keep him fresh enough to be the playoff goalie we all know he is?

3) Does anyone care to look up goalie ages and when they are usually hot in their careers? Tim Thomas is 37 I believe and he just won the cup with a Vezina kicker..
Thomas has always had good numbers as a goalie, though; he just didn't get a chance as a starter until late in his career. Kipper, on the other hand, has been on a steady (minus a one season anomaly) decline.

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06-29-2011, 02:28 PM
  #63
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Thomas has always had good numbers as a goalie, though; he just didn't get a chance as a starter until late in his career. Kipper, on the other hand, has been on a steady (minus a one season anomaly) decline.
I definitely accept that, but the guy also plays 3000 games a year.. Just saying more rest could rejuvenate him and prep him more for post-season(should we make it)? I don't know the stats but it seems a goalie of his ilk can handle a longer than average career.. Again, maybe

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06-30-2011, 12:12 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by CPRSRPUNKS View Post
I definitely accept that, but the guy also plays 3000 games a year.. Just saying more rest could rejuvenate him and prep him more for post-season(should we make it)? I don't know the stats but it seems a goalie of his ilk can handle a longer than average career.. Again, maybe
Problem with that is that we haven't been in a position where we're able to afford giving Kipper longer stretches of rest. This year will be the year to test that in my opinion but when we're still a little hesitant about throwing a guy out there who has one very well known weakness when we're still in a playoff hunt? Not too suprising that Kipper and rest aren't exactly very common together.


It's hard to judge whether to play him for 10+ games in the beginning in the season when we need to find and keep a groove, or to give Karlsson some more chances in order to give the team the change to solidify their confidence in playing in front of their backup.

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06-30-2011, 12:44 AM
  #65
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Problem with that is that we haven't been in a position where we're able to afford giving Kipper longer stretches of rest. This year will be the year to test that in my opinion but when we're still a little hesitant about throwing a guy out there who has one very well known weakness when we're still in a playoff hunt? Not too suprising that Kipper and rest aren't exactly very common together.


It's hard to judge whether to play him for 10+ games in the beginning in the season when we need to find and keep a groove, or to give Karlsson some more chances in order to give the team the change to solidify their confidence in playing in front of their backup.
I don't think Kipper can handle playing 70+ games year in and year out anymore and still perform at a high enough level. He's done it for the last six years and you got to figure it's catching up to him. His play provides enough evidence of that. Not everyone can be a Brodeur and pull it off.

With regards to whether or not the back-up should play, it's pretty much fault of the coaching staff and Darryl Sutter. Darryl gets the criticism for thinking McElhinney would be a good enough back up. The coaching staff for being so short-sighted every single season.

Basically, the last four years have gone like this:

September/October - "We're definitely going to pace Kipper's starts this year. We really think 'backup goaltender' can be a reliable player. We expect Kipper to get a lot more rest this season"

November - "We played ourselves into a hole and now we have to climb out. Have to win with our best players. Kipper starts until we get a winning record."

End of November/December - "We're on a hot streak. We'll ride Kipper for as long it goes on."

January/February - "We have to find ways to win again. Can't win unless our best players are our best players. Kipper gives us the best chance to win."

March/April - "These are all must win games if we want to make the playoffs. Can't trust 'backup goaltender' to handle it. Kipper has to play every game."

April to September - "You know, Kipper was played too much. We got to finds ways to giving him more rest next season. I really believe 'backup goaltender' can to that. I don't anticipate Kiprusoff playing that many games again. I really don't."

Want a more reliable Kiprusoff in March? Play him less in November.


Last edited by Calculon: 06-30-2011 at 12:51 AM.
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06-30-2011, 12:47 AM
  #66
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Basically, the last four years have gone like this:

September/October - "We definitely going to pace Kipper's starts this year. We really think 'backup goaltender' can be a reliable player. We expect Kipper to get a lot more rest this season"

November - "We played ourselves into a hole and now we have to climb out. Have to win with our best players. Kipper starts until we get a winning record."

End of November/December - "We're on a hot streak. We'll ride Kipper for as long it goes on."

January/February - "We have to find ways to win again. Can't win unless our best players are our best players. Kipper gives us the best chance to win."

March/April - "These are all must win games if we want to make the playoffs. Can't trust 'backup goaltender' to handle it. Kipper has to play every game."

April to September - "You know, Kipper was played too much. We got to finds ways to giving him more rest next season. I really believe 'backup goaltender' can to that. I don't anticipate Kiprusoff playing that many games again. I really don't."

Want a more reliable Kiprusoff in March? Play him less in November.
In summary, play Kipper 70+ games, think about resting him next year.

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06-30-2011, 12:47 AM
  #67
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I don't think Kipper can handle playing 70+ games year in and year out anymore and still perform at a high enough level. He's done it for the last six years and you got to figure it's catching up to him. His play provides enough evidence of that. Not everyone can be a Brodeur and pull it off.

With regards to whether or not the back-up should play, it's pretty much fault of the coaching staff and Darryl Sutter. Darryl gets the criticism for thinking McElhinney would be a good enough back up. The coaching staff for being so short-sighted every single season.

Basically, the last four years have gone like this:

September/October - "We definitely going to pace Kipper's starts this year. We really think 'backup goaltender' can be a reliable player. We expect Kipper to get a lot more rest this season"

November - "We played ourselves into a hole and now we have to climb out. Have to win with our best players. Kipper starts until we get a winning record."

End of November/December - "We're on a hot streak. We'll ride Kipper for as long it goes on."

January/February - "We have to find ways to win again. Can't win unless our best players are our best players. Kipper gives us the best chance to win."

March/April - "These are all must win games if we want to make the playoffs. Can't trust 'backup goaltender' to handle it. Kipper has to play every game."

April to September - "You know, Kipper was played too much. We got to finds ways to giving him more rest next season. I really believe 'backup goaltender' can to that. I don't anticipate Kiprusoff playing that many games again. I really don't."

Want a more reliable Kiprusoff in March? Play him less in November.
No kidding, I hope Karlsson can actually be a reliable backup who can play 20-30 games and win most of them. It would give Kipper a much needed rest in the season and help us earn a playoff spot.

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06-30-2011, 02:46 AM
  #68
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Sorry, I don't buy into the theory that Kipper needs more rest. First of all, he is a goaltender, goalies have the least amount of physical activity of any position in hockey. Hence the reason goalies can often play at a high level later in their career than any other position. Another reason in particular with Kipper that I think he can handle a large number of games is he is a rythm goaltender. He plays at his best when plays consecutive games, this is when he gets on hot streaks and he seems unbeatable during fairly long stretches.

If Kipper is said to be our franchise goalie, then I am all for playing him around 65+ games. And I think that people saying Kipper is declining do not really watch him all that closely and are pointing fingers for the Flames woes. Kipper was the largest reason that the Flames climbed from out of the basement and fought to withing a playoff spot last season. Hands down, he was our best player during that stretch.

Its fine if people say to look at moving him, but only for a deal that make sense. If the Flames were to lose Kipper, they instantly become one of the worst teams in the Western conference. I like Karlsson, but he has shown nothing that he is anywhere close to being a full time starter in the NHL.

Anyways boys I'm off to Europe for a few weeks. Hopefully the Flames do well in FA and make some solid moves! Catch up with you all later.

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06-30-2011, 09:38 AM
  #69
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Sorry, I don't buy into the theory that Kipper needs more rest. First of all, he is a goaltender, goalies have the least amount of physical activity of any position in hockey. Hence the reason goalies can often play at a high level later in their career than any other position. Another reason in particular with Kipper that I think he can handle a large number of games is he is a rythm goaltender. He plays at his best when plays consecutive games, this is when he gets on hot streaks and he seems unbeatable during fairly long stretches.

If Kipper is said to be our franchise goalie, then I am all for playing him around 65+ games. And I think that people saying Kipper is declining do not really watch him all that closely and are pointing fingers for the Flames woes. Kipper was the largest reason that the Flames climbed from out of the basement and fought to withing a playoff spot last season. Hands down, he was our best player during that stretch.

Its fine if people say to look at moving him, but only for a deal that make sense. If the Flames were to lose Kipper, they instantly become one of the worst teams in the Western conference. I like Karlsson, but he has shown nothing that he is anywhere close to being a full time starter in the NHL.

Anyways boys I'm off to Europe for a few weeks. Hopefully the Flames do well in FA and make some solid moves! Catch up with you all later.

I disagree. The one key thing that is absent from your post is the mental side of the game. Goalies have the most amount of pressure placed on them since they are the last line of defence and are usually on the ice for the entire game. As such, a goaltender must be sharp for the entire 60 minutes or more and to do this for 70+ games takes its toll. We've witnessed with Kiprusoff that he has about 5 to 10 games each year where he's completely out of it mentally, which is evidenced by him overplaying shots, being overly aggressive, and whiffing on easy saves. But when he's on his game, he's almost unbeatable.

I also think you underestimate the physical toll on goaltenders. They have to be quick in the crease, they're constantly bending and moving side-to-side, and they're wearing several kilos of equipment. All of this will exact a physical toll, especially if a goaltender is playing 70+ games a year like Kiprusoff.

Kiprusoff is getting older. It's time for the Flames to cut down on the number of gamees he plays and to lower his minutes. The Flames need him to be much sharper and playing at a high level at the end of the season, which means not overplaying him and exhausting in in the first two or three months.

BTW: Enjoy your trip.

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06-30-2011, 10:13 AM
  #70
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Sorry, I don't buy into the theory that Kipper needs more rest. First of all, he is a goaltender, goalies have the least amount of physical activity of any position in hockey. Hence the reason goalies can often play at a high level later in their career than any other position. Another reason in particular with Kipper that I think he can handle a large number of games is he is a rythm goaltender. He plays at his best when plays consecutive games, this is when he gets on hot streaks and he seems unbeatable during fairly long stretches.

Anyways boys I'm off to Europe for a few weeks. Hopefully the Flames do well in FA and make some solid moves! Catch up with you all later.
Unfortunately, you could probably say the same of the team as well, being so intune with their rhythm.

Have fun on your trip. Bring souvenirs.

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06-30-2011, 11:19 AM
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I disagree. The one key thing that is absent from your post is the mental side of the game. Goalies have the most amount of pressure placed on them since they are the last line of defence and are usually on the ice for the entire game. As such, a goaltender must be sharp for the entire 60 minutes or more and to do this for 70+ games takes its toll. We've witnessed with Kiprusoff that he has about 5 to 10 games each year where he's completely out of it mentally, which is evidenced by him overplaying shots, being overly aggressive, and whiffing on easy saves. But when he's on his game, he's almost unbeatable.

I also think you underestimate the physical toll on goaltenders. They have to be quick in the crease, they're constantly bending and moving side-to-side, and they're wearing several kilos of equipment. All of this will exact a physical toll, especially if a goaltender is playing 70+ games a year like Kiprusoff.

Kiprusoff is getting older. It's time for the Flames to cut down on the number of gamees he plays and to lower his minutes. The Flames need him to be much sharper and playing at a high level at the end of the season, which means not overplaying him and exhausting in in the first two or three months.

BTW: Enjoy your trip.
Wow, you know a lot of that is true and I believe I may have posted my objections to what people say about needing rest before at some point. Goalies(especially "franchise" goalies) probably go through much more than we could imagine.

I'm thinking that if we don't deal him, this needs to happen. If we are going to try for a run, we might as well see what happens with the newbies and give Kipper time to rest and "save the day" closer to the playoffs.

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06-30-2011, 11:23 AM
  #72
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I disagree. The one key thing that is absent from your post is the mental side of the game. Goalies have the most amount of pressure placed on them since they are the last line of defence and are usually on the ice for the entire game. As such, a goaltender must be sharp for the entire 60 minutes or more and to do this for 70+ games takes its toll. We've witnessed with Kiprusoff that he has about 5 to 10 games each year where he's completely out of it mentally, which is evidenced by him overplaying shots, being overly aggressive, and whiffing on easy saves. But when he's on his game, he's almost unbeatable.

I also think you underestimate the physical toll on goaltenders. They have to be quick in the crease, they're constantly bending and moving side-to-side, and they're wearing several kilos of equipment. All of this will exact a physical toll, especially if a goaltender is playing 70+ games a year like Kiprusoff.

Kiprusoff is getting older. It's time for the Flames to cut down on the number of gamees he plays and to lower his minutes. The Flames need him to be much sharper and playing at a high level at the end of the season, which means not overplaying him and exhausting in in the first two or three months.

BTW: Enjoy your trip.
You make a ton of excellent points that are very hard to argue about the goaltending position. And trust me, I wasn't trying to come off like I was saying being a goaltender does not physically take a toll, but it is not as physically demanding as other positions with all the high speed collisions that occur in hockey.

Kipper is definitely prone to having some stinkers but I do not think that its necessarily due to fatigue. Last season he was playing some of his best hockey down the stretch towards the end of the season (when he should be the most tired). I would also say that Kipper's mental strength is one of his best abilities as a goaltender. Like I said he does absolutely have some bad games, but more times than not even after giving up an early goal, he will make a big or timely save to keep the Flames in the game. I'm not opposed to seeing Karlsson more because I think he is a quality goaltender, but IMO unless the coaching staff sees that Kipper is breaking down due to an excessive work load, I still want to see him in the majority of games because he gives us our best chance to win night in and night out.

And thanks guys, can't wait to see the Red Light District.

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06-30-2011, 11:26 AM
  #73
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Have a fun trip MVW!

Great point Xelstyle!

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06-30-2011, 11:33 AM
  #74
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Great point Xelstyle!
I'm glad somebody agrees with me about MVW needing to bring back souvenirs.

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06-30-2011, 11:45 AM
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I'm glad somebody agrees with me about MVW needing to bring back souvenirs.
Lol, I'll bring some souvenirs from China when I come home. Mcdonald's classic anyone?

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