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Kaberle might test the market

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Old
06-29-2011, 01:58 PM
  #276
bp13
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Originally Posted by Bill Ladd View Post
I don't think that's the question.

I think Seidenberg is the answer in the top pairing. He's not an offensive guy, but the way the B's set up their pairs, he is a good enough two-way player that they can be a shut-down pair without getting hemmed in for puckmoving failures (like we saw when Aaron Ward was Chara's partner).

I think the question is: Can Ference do it again?

Let's face it, the guy played WAY over his head. And he's been injured for 4 of our last 5 playoff runs. Are we really going to hang all our hopes on his health?

I also think Kaberle brought more than he's gotten credit for. I know, he didn't live up to expectations. Not even close. But do folks really think Kampfer could have been the 3rd leading D scorer in the playoffs had he played instead? Do they think he could do that next year? Cuz I sure don't.

IMO, you let Kaberle walk and at the very least, you're taking a big risk, at worst, you just took a big step back (like, to 2009). Meanwhile, teams around us are improving. And if the B's could sign a guy like Ehrhoff, then I think that would be a significant step forward for our team.
Bill it's rare for me, but I'm going to disagree with you here.

Let me first say, again, that I lobbied to get Kaberle. I wanted him, I thought the team desperately needed a puck mover and power play QB, and I thought he'd help a ton. But he was awful. Now we can debate just how bad he actually was, but can't we agree that he didn't a) appreciably improve the breakout, b) appreciably improve our transition game, or c) help our PP ?

Now obviously the PP issue could have been beyond his help. But at the very least he wasn't able to adapt to find a way to help it. He just became another part of the big problem. Plus his lack of willingness to shoot compounded the problem so that whenever thye got some good movement and he got an open shot, he all but killed the chance himself.

So I would argue that the Bruins could either fill that spot with a better PMD option (like Ehrhoff), or they could fill it with a defense-first guy, and still be better than they were with him. IOW, he wasn't even effective enough to argue for him over say, another McQuaid. You'd be better off giving up the points (as seemingly meaningless and gratuitious as they were) to get a d-man you didn't have to spot against 4th liners and stiffs. Keep the money you'd burn signing that guy and spend it at the deadline. You will be in the playoff picture, and you will have assets to use for trade.

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06-29-2011, 01:59 PM
  #277
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Thomas Reed of the Columbus Dispatch just Tweeted that the Blue Jackets traded for Wisniewski's rights. Dealt a 7th rounder to the Habs.

Maybe a team will bite on Kaberle's rights now?

http://twitter.com/TReedDispatch

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06-29-2011, 02:00 PM
  #278
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On pace for 55 points before the trade does not indicate a decline,that would be the 3rd highest output of his career. 47 points was the 5th highest of his career. 33 is usually the curtain closing on a forward but 35 for a defenseman. If he played the entire year here next year I'd say he'd be good for 55 points-minimum! But his aversion to checking and his loss of confidence here doomed him,not loss of skill.
Once upon a time (year after the walkout), Kaberle led the league in minutes played, and led the Leafs in PK time. His role has diminished over time since he doesn't play PK, his defensive work has had a monumental decline so he isn't on the ice against the other teams top line, and he's a much slower skater than he was (although he still is very smooth). Kaberle has always had a ton of points on the PP, which is the one place you can hide a player whose defensive capabilities have diminished, but still have him stack up points. Kaberle is quite a bit off the contribution of his prime at this point when he was certainly a number 1 defenseman.

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06-29-2011, 02:00 PM
  #279
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@TReedDispatchThomas Reed

#CBJ trade for rights to D James Wisniewski. Give up a 7th rounder to montreal.

Wisniewskis rights traded to Columbus.. if he signs we will not have a good option to replace Kaberle on the market

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06-29-2011, 02:05 PM
  #280
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Im starting to think the best option is really to bring someone steady defensively and good skater even if offensively is not that good, something like Brewer.

Dont overpay and keep it simple.

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06-29-2011, 02:10 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
he did not almost become a liability he was a liability. How many goals happend at critical times because of a bad pinch by him, How many goals went off of him into our own net.

I would be interested to see what percent of goals against in the playoffs that he was on the ice for.

I really like his game but he did not have a good playoffs at all.
I agree that Boychuk's better suited for a bottom-pairing role as opposed to top 4, but I think you could do worse having him on your 2nd pairing. I also think he was much better in the POs than he's being given credit for.

I think Boychuk's become a bit of a whipping boy around here. Not saying you're doing anything unfair in your criticism Scotto, but it just seems like he's the new Ference.

People were calling for him to sit after his game 1 pinch against Kesler. This was my response then (edited a bit for the parts that are now out of context), and it held up pretty well as the series wore on:

1. Any open-ice hitter is going to find themself out of position from time to time. He wasn't caught out of position when he put Coburn into next week in Philly. Or when he murdered Ellis in last year's POs.

2. The shot was off this year, but it certainly wasn't last season, or the season he had 20 in Providence. Kid has a bomb, just needs to work on it a bit.

3. He has 2 goals, is a plus 5, and has 8 hits in 3 series-clinching games this post season (EDIT- that ended up being a plus 7, with 10 hits in series-clinching games). His overall post season production has gone up when compared to his regular season production in his young career. Small sample size, but true none the less.

Everyone is seizing on the gaffe in game 1, but he also had 8 hits and 3 blocks that game. (EDIT- in the 6 games after game 1 of Vancouver, he had 3 assists, was a PLUS 8, had 17 hits, and 11 blocks)

4. Can drop them if you need him to, and is always one of the first sticking his nose in for teammates.

Basically, I acknowledge Boychuk has his faults. Most players do. But his positives far outweight his negatives IMO, and he could play on my team any day.

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06-29-2011, 02:14 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by mloyko View Post
@TReedDispatchThomas Reed

#CBJ trade for rights to D James Wisniewski. Give up a 7th rounder to montreal.

Wisniewskis rights traded to Columbus.. if he signs we will not have a good option to replace Kaberle on the market
Think anyone will give anything up for the rights to talk to Kaberle?

If they don't that would be very telling.

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06-29-2011, 02:21 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Bill it's rare for me, but I'm going to disagree with you here.

Let me first say, again, that I lobbied to get Kaberle. I wanted him, I thought the team desperately needed a puck mover and power play QB, and I thought he'd help a ton. But he was awful. Now we can debate just how bad he actually was, but can't we agree that he didn't a) appreciably improve the breakout, b) appreciably improve our transition game, or c) help our PP ?

Now obviously the PP issue could have been beyond his help. But at the very least he wasn't able to adapt to find a way to help it. He just became another part of the big problem. Plus his lack of willingness to shoot compounded the problem so that whenever thye got some good movement and he got an open shot, he all but killed the chance himself.

So I would argue that the Bruins could either fill that spot with a better PMD option (like Ehrhoff), or they could fill it with a defense-first guy, and still be better than they were with him. IOW, he wasn't even effective enough to argue for him over say, another McQuaid. You'd be better off giving up the points (as seemingly meaningless and gratuitious as they were) to get a d-man you didn't have to spot against 4th liners and stiffs. Keep the money you'd burn signing that guy and spend it at the deadline. You will be in the playoff picture, and you will have assets to use for trade.
Oh, I do think Kaberle improved the breakout Beeps, and I think he improved our transition game, especially in games where things opened up.

I think there's a tendency to go all or nothing with everyone. You're either great or your awful. I don't think Kaberle was either. I also don't think he's worth $4m, so don't get me wrong. But there is a middle ground in terms of his impact on the team and in terms of what I'd be willing to pay him to come back.

Fwiw, I don't think this team would have won the Cup if they had replaced Kaberle with Hnidy or even another McQuaid type.

I also hate the idea of depending on the trade deadline to fix your problems. The B's are no longer overflowing with picks, and I don't want to give up a Spooner or a Knight as well as next year's 1st and 2nd to go get something that's available for cash right now. And that's even if that thing you need is available. In 2010, the B's believed they'd be able to address their scoring at the deadline, but they couldn't get a deal done and they had to make the playoffs as the lowest scoring team in the NHL, and one injury bounced them out of the 2nd round and a 3-0 series lead.

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Old
06-29-2011, 02:25 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Think anyone will give anything up for the rights to talk to Kaberle?

If they don't that would be very telling.
Not sure it tells us anything other than that the Islanders and Blue Jackets need a few days to liquor up players to convince them to sign there. Kaberle strikes me as someone who is going to test the open market and take his time, not sure there would be much value to trade for his rights.

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06-29-2011, 02:26 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Think anyone will give anything up for the rights to talk to Kaberle?

If they don't that would be very telling.
... that wiser hockey minds than those found in Columbus and on Long Island don't want to trade assets for someone they'd rather talk to for free in a few days. What'll be telling of the market for Kaberle is what he signs for and where. What'll be telling of whether the market priced him correctly is how he produces over the next years relative to players with similar deals.

It's probably not wise to mistake every wave for a sea change -- otherwise you'd mistake Andrew Ference for legitimate top-four defenseman...

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06-29-2011, 02:28 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
I was in no way trying to say that the loved players Krejci, Lucic, Horton, Bergeron etc were not a problem because they were, But you can't deny that that #1 reason that Kab's was aquired was to be the differnece maker on the PP and he was zero effective.
Name a shooting play by the Bruins during the regular season excluding Chara. When 4 other guys don't shoot, hesitate, don't pass the puck with speed the result is a terrible power play.

Thinking Kaberle would fix the power play 100% was naive by everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
he did not almost become a liability he was a liability. How many goals happend at critical times because of a bad pinch by him, How many goals went off of him into our own net.

I would be interested to see what percent of goals against in the playoffs that he was on the ice for.

I really like his game but he did not have a good playoffs at all.
PlayerGA%GA
Seidenberg2649%
Chara2547.1%
Boychuk2139.6%
Ference1833.9%
Kaberle815%
McQuaid815%

GAPTOI- goals against per time on ice
PlayerGAPTOI
Seidenberg 26:34
Chara26:33
Boychuk24:32
Ference28:37
Kaberle50:00
McQuaid 37:30

Honestly speaking, the biggest difference between Ference and Boychuk was the 6-5 game against Tampa this playoff. Ference was a 0 and Boychuk was a -3. Their play was rather simliar minus that game.


Last edited by finchster: 06-29-2011 at 02:35 PM.
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06-29-2011, 02:30 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Name a shooting play by the Bruins during the regular season excluding Chara. When 4 other guys don't shoot, hesitate, don't pass the puck with speed the result is a terrible power play.

Thinking Kaberle would fix the power play 100% was naive by everyone.


PlayerGA%GA
Seidenberg2649%
Chara2547.1%
Boychuk2139.6%
Ference1833.9%
Kaberle815%
McQuaid815%

GPTOI- goal per time on ice
PlayerGPTOI
Seidenberg 26:34
Chara26:33
Boychuk24:32
Ference28:37
Kaberle50:00
McQuaid 37:30
That second table Goal Against per Time on Ice, I'm guessing?

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06-29-2011, 02:35 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by mr grieves View Post
That second table Goal Against per Time on Ice, I'm guessing?
Yes oops let me fix that haha

If I have time I might break it down between ESTOI SHTOI etc, it would be slighty more useful. Kaberle played a ton of PPTOI which made his number so hit.

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06-29-2011, 02:38 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by BoyntBergie View Post
I agree that Boychuk's better suited for a bottom-pairing role as opposed to top 4, but I think you could do worse having him on your 2nd pairing. I also think he was much better in the POs than he's being given credit for.

I think Boychuk's become a bit of a whipping boy around here. Not saying you're doing anything unfair in your criticism Scotto, but it just seems like he's the new Ference.

People were calling for him to sit after his game 1 pinch against Kesler. This was my response then (edited a bit for the parts that are now out of context), and it held up pretty well as the series wore on:

1. Any open-ice hitter is going to find themself out of position from time to time. He wasn't caught out of position when he put Coburn into next week in Philly. Or when he murdered Ellis in last year's POs.

2. The shot was off this year, but it certainly wasn't last season, or the season he had 20 in Providence. Kid has a bomb, just needs to work on it a bit.

3. He has 2 goals, is a plus 5, and has 8 hits in 3 series-clinching games this post season (EDIT- that ended up being a plus 7, with 10 hits in series-clinching games). His overall post season production has gone up when compared to his regular season production in his young career. Small sample size, but true none the less.

Everyone is seizing on the gaffe in game 1, but he also had 8 hits and 3 blocks that game. (EDIT- in the 6 games after game 1 of Vancouver, he had 3 assists, was a PLUS 8, had 17 hits, and 11 blocks)

4. Can drop them if you need him to, and is always one of the first sticking his nose in for teammates.

Basically, I acknowledge Boychuk has his faults. Most players do. But his positives far outweight his negatives IMO, and he could play on my team any day.
all very good points. I am in no way saying we should trade him or anything I just think he had a bad playoffs thats all. After watching what he did last year maybe I was expecting to much from him but every time he was on the ice I was not feeling good this post season.


Just seemed he was always in the wrong place at the wrong time. I love the skills he has and with some more work he could be a really good player.

He has a great shot
He can skate pretty well
He can hit very well
He is pretty sound on D

Again I just think it was the playoffs as he was very good for most of the regular season.

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06-29-2011, 02:42 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Name a shooting play by the Bruins during the regular season excluding Chara. When 4 other guys don't shoot, hesitate, don't pass the puck with speed the result is a terrible power play.

Thinking Kaberle would fix the power play 100% was naive by everyone.


PlayerGA%GA
Seidenberg2649%
Chara2547.1%
Boychuk2139.6%
Ference1833.9%
Kaberle815%
McQuaid815%

GAPTOI- goals against per time on ice
PlayerGAPTOI
Seidenberg 26:34
Chara26:33
Boychuk24:32
Ference28:37
Kaberle50:00
McQuaid 37:30

Honestly speaking, the biggest difference between Ference and Boychuk was the 6-5 game against Tampa this playoff. Ference was a 0 and Boychuk was a -3. Their play was rather simliar minus that game.
I see what your saying on the PP and I agree it's just that the other guys on the PP mean so much more to the team and have much bigger roles. Kabe's #1 job was to be the PP quarterback which is way he got more Ice time on the PP then anyone on the team.

Good stats there on the D thanks.

Again I don't dislike Boychuk I just feel he was not up to par during the playoffs and a lot of that could have just been my view of things but he just always seemed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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06-29-2011, 02:50 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Name a shooting play by the Bruins during the regular season excluding Chara. When 4 other guys don't shoot, hesitate, don't pass the puck with speed the result is a terrible power play.

Thinking Kaberle would fix the power play 100% was naive by everyone.


PlayerGA%GA
Seidenberg2649%
Chara2547.1%
Boychuk2139.6%
Ference1833.9%
Kaberle815%
McQuaid815%

GAPTOI- goals against per time on ice
PlayerGAPTOI
Seidenberg 26:34
Chara26:33
Boychuk24:32
Ference28:37
Kaberle50:00
McQuaid 37:30

Honestly speaking, the biggest difference between Ference and Boychuk was the 6-5 game against Tampa this playoff. Ference was a 0 and Boychuk was a -3. Their play was rather simliar minus that game.
The main flaw with just looking at it like this is that it doesn't take into account quality of competition. Fact is, CJ basically spotted Kaberle against the lowest offensive producing players from very early on in the playoffs, and he saw extremely limited TOI during crunch time for most games.

It's no secret that during the final series, whenever there was a last change home ice advantage for the Nucks, they desperately wanted the sisters and Kesler out against Kabs. It was a clear mismatch whenever he played versus their top players. He was someone they looked at thinking they had a chance to exploit. That's all I need to know, no matter how the numbers look.

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06-29-2011, 02:56 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
The main flaw with just looking at it like this is that it doesn't take into account quality of competition. Fact is, CJ basically spotted Kaberle against the lowest offensive producing players from very early on in the playoffs, and he saw extremely limited TOI during crunch time for most games.

It's no secret that during the final series, whenever there was a last change home ice advantage for the Nucks, they desperately wanted the sisters and Kesler out against Kabs. It was a clear mismatch whenever he played versus their top players. He was someone they looked at thinking they had a chance to exploit. That's all I need to know, no matter how the numbers look.
good point. You also have to take into consideration how many times did Thomas save each D-man after they made a mistake. That does not show in the stats but if not for Thomas some of our D-men that don't look to bad on that list would have much worse stats.

It just sticks out to me that while watching the playoffs I remember Boychuk and Kaberle not playing well at all and making a lot of mistakes. Just because they did not end up in goals against (Thank you Tim Thomas) does not mean they were not bad mistakes.

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06-29-2011, 03:07 PM
  #293
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good point. You also have to take into consideration how many times did Thomas save each D-man after they made a mistake. That does not show in the stats but if not for Thomas some of our D-men that don't look to bad on that list would have much worse stats.

It just sticks out to me that while watching the playoffs I remember Boychuk and Kaberle not playing well at all and making a lot of mistakes. Just because they did not end up in goals against (Thank you Tim Thomas) does not mean they were not bad mistakes.
That's a case where the stats don't really reflect accurately regarding the level of play by some of them. They benefitted tremendously by having Thomas improve on his record setting regular season GAA in the playoffs. Flat out. Anyone who watched the games has to remember basically having to hold their breath whenever the matchup was bad against Kabs and Boychuk. It was scary. To even suggest that they grossly overpay for a guy that was a defensive liability? Eh. Count me out. I was okay with bringing him back for a short term, low dollar figure, but after I saw what Bieksa got, I figured Kaberle would sucker some team into giving him a raise. He's not worth it at this point, no matter how many secondary assists he puts up. He just can't play d, and anyone who watched him during his time in Boston has to realize that.

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06-29-2011, 03:10 PM
  #294
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Yes oops let me fix that haha

If I have time I might break it down between ESTOI SHTOI etc, it would be slighty more useful. Kaberle played a ton of PPTOI which made his number so hit.
Right. That breaking down that stat would be pretty interesting.

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06-29-2011, 03:12 PM
  #295
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http://brucrew.wordpress.com/2011/06...agency-starts/

So Kaberle is not coming back.............. WISNIEWSKI
They must do whatever they can to sign this guy. We cannot go into the year with kampfer as the 6
i hate getting info from blogs like this.. anyone can write a blog

is there an actual source to confirm this?

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06-29-2011, 03:15 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
The main flaw with just looking at it like this is that it doesn't take into account quality of competition. Fact is, CJ basically spotted Kaberle against the lowest offensive producing players from very early on in the playoffs, and he saw extremely limited TOI during crunch time for most games.
I don't know. Kaberle seems not to have been playing against the worst opposing players, if quality of competition stats (explained) are to be believed...

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06-29-2011, 03:29 PM
  #297
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I don't know. Kaberle seems not to have been playing against the worst opposing players, if quality of competition stats (explained) are to be believed...
Again, this is an inherently flawed stat. You based it on +/-, yet anyone facing Chara and Seidenberg as their main comp wasn't scoring, so it looks more favorable to lesser d-men since the players they were going against had better +/- numbers because it was easier for them to score due to facing lesser competition. An example is that the Sedin twins had the worst plus minus of all forwards on the Canucks for the playoffs, yet the bottom six players like Torres, Lapierre, and Hansen had the highest. Does that mean the Sedins were really the worst players and the 3rd and 4th line guys were a more legit scoring threat?

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06-29-2011, 04:05 PM
  #298
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I don't know. Kaberle seems not to have been playing against the worst opposing players, if quality of competition stats (explained) are to be believed...
Good one,what will they make up next.

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06-29-2011, 04:11 PM
  #299
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Good one,what will they make up next.
relax guys we got from brian burke ,tyler ( steve yzerman ) seguin , doug ( rob blake ) hamilton and jared ( brandon morrow ) knight. our franchaise is healthy for the next 10 yrs....... oh yea didnt we just win the stanley cup? were greedy arent we , but as the great gordon gecko stated in the movie wall street "greed is good!"

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06-29-2011, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BNHL View Post
Good one,what will they make up next.
There's no need to make anything up, the truth speaks loudly on it's own. Using just plus minus as the sole criteria for quality of comp means d-men going against the likes of Steve Downie (+8) were facing stiffer comp than going against the Martin St. Louis' (-7) of the world. Does that make sense to you? Who would you rather have Chara and Seidenberg try to neutralize, the monolithic sniper that is Downie, or maybe St. Louis? Just something to think about, if you're willing to look beyond slanted stats.

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