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Old
06-30-2011, 12:38 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I'm not crying for White and his $$$ one bit, but what makes you think that he'll leave 500 to 1mil on the table for a year? For a guy like White, this is probably his only guaranteed chance to cash in, and in the "big picture" as you put it, cashing in for fair market value is the smart thing to do.

What if he takes that 2.5 mil/1yr that some people are suggesting and he gets critically injured this year and can't play hockey again?

Factoring in the ACTUAL $ amount that these players make, and I think you'll find that he's not raking in the dough like a basketball/football/baseball players.

Other people would know better than I, but how much of the player's salary do they actually collect?

With taxes and the money that goes into escrow, is it something like 50%?

So if he wanted a nice middle class home in San Jose, say Willow Glen or Los Gatos, he'd have to pay about 1.5mil.

Well, that's the cost of last year's salary.

Over the course of his NHL career, White's made 5,550,000.

If he only got 50% of that due to taxes and the dues he has to pay to the league, then he's made $2,775,000.

Now, by all means that isn't chump change, but it isn't the hyperbole that you've just said wherein Sprewell says he can't provide for his family for 7mil a year.

This next contract would GUARANTEE him a luxurious life for him, his family, and would be better overall for his career (see below).


I'll put it this way - Sharks can't afford to sign White long term and they can't afford to pay him fair market value. Him signing to the Sharks would also pretty much relegate him to the 2nd or 3rd pairing, and he would mos def get 2nd PP time, instead of 1st PP - all things that ultimately hold back on his value by preventing his TOI and potential points by being on the ice for that amount of time for his next contract.

So you tell me, after all that, how would it be a smart career choice for him to sign here for 2.5mil given all these factors?
If he signs a one year deal, then he likely gets another year to cash in next off-season. How is it his 'only' chance? It's his only chance if he signs a deal that puts him through his prime years. He is only 26. He can sign two contracts that would make him financially.

If he is a responsible person, the money he has already made should guarantee him a luxurious lifestyle. Because even if all he's raked in is 2 million dollars to take home, that invested properly is easily something for him to live off of. This argument that it's impossible or irresponsible or outrageous for him to sacrifice some money for a chance at glory is silly.

It is status quo for him to chase the money and everyone understands that considering he was tossed to the wayside for a better player. But it wouldn't be outlandish for him to take a pay cut to try and win and it wouldn't be the biggest risk to his career either. It's simply a choice for him to make as a free agent.

The likelihood is that he will get signed to a decent rate where he might snag some control over his movement with some term. Nothing wrong with that but there's nothing wrong with a fleeting hope or desire for him to do exactly what Manny Malhotra did two years ago.

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Old
06-30-2011, 12:42 AM
  #52
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Understood, but I think you are grabbing on to a small part of the overall argument. For me, I'll just have to disagree with you, but that is because I am of the belief that you cannot truly appreciate a situation unless you've experienced it. For example, my coworker is a widow, and one day she said that she doesn't like doing "x" because it makes her think of her dead husband. I started to say "ohhh I understand," but then I realized you know I really don't understand.

Same thing with these people judging athletes and saying "damn why doesn't he take a discount for the almighty cup!" There are more things to it than that...

However, I get where you are coming from and do think it is a legit point of view, I just disagree with it.
And I believe that that is awfully presumptuous to believe it would be impossible to understand things that almost everyone goes through in life or knows someone who goes through it or what have you. If you watch it and study anything enough, you can understand it w/o actually going through it. You're never going to know exactly what another feels like but you can understand.

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06-30-2011, 12:48 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And I believe that that is awfully presumptuous to believe it would be impossible to understand things that almost everyone goes through in life or knows someone who goes through it or what have you. If you watch it and study anything enough, you can understand it w/o actually going through it. You're never going to know exactly what another feels like but you can understand.
I don't think it is presumptuous at all, and I think if we went any further with this we'd just be semantics. I think you conceded my point at the end

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06-30-2011, 12:49 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I don't think it is presumptuous at all, and I think if we went any further with this we'd just be semantics. I think you conceded my point at the end
I hate you but you'll never truly understand how much I hate you.

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06-30-2011, 12:50 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If he signs a one year deal, then he likely gets another year to cash in next off-season. How is it his 'only' chance? It's his only chance if he signs a deal that puts him through his prime years. He is only 26. He can sign two contracts that would make him financially.

If he is a responsible person, the money he has already made should guarantee him a luxurious lifestyle. Because even if all he's raked in is 2 million dollars to take home, that invested properly is easily something for him to live off of. This argument that it's impossible or irresponsible or outrageous for him to sacrifice some money for a chance at glory is silly.

It is status quo for him to chase the money and everyone understands that considering he was tossed to the wayside for a better player. But it wouldn't be outlandish for him to take a pay cut to try and win and it wouldn't be the biggest risk to his career either. It's simply a choice for him to make as a free agent.

The likelihood is that he will get signed to a decent rate where he might snag some control over his movement with some term. Nothing wrong with that but there's nothing wrong with a fleeting hope or desire for him to do exactly what Manny Malhotra did two years ago.
My point was why risk the 1 year? Speaking of Manny, suppose he pulled a Manny and got struck by a puck that blinded him and this time it really did end his career. That is my point about the 1 year contract.

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06-30-2011, 12:53 AM
  #56
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Heh, no worries.


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06-30-2011, 01:02 AM
  #57
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My point was why risk the 1 year? Speaking of Manny, suppose he pulled a Manny and got struck by a puck that blinded him and this time it really did end his career. That is my point about the 1 year contract.
And the chances of that happening are very minor. That's an extreme scenario whereas what Manny actually went through with his one year here is a lot more common. There are very few things that can actually happen in this game that would take their careers away from them. And even with that, players understand the risks every time they make these decisions. Clubs do it all the time but you don't ask them that question when they sign a 15 year contract with someone.

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06-30-2011, 01:07 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And the chances of that happening are very minor. That's an extreme scenario whereas what Manny actually went through with his one year here is a lot more common. There are very few things that can actually happen in this game that would take their careers away from them. And even with that, players understand the risks every time they make these decisions. Clubs do it all the time but you don't ask them that question when they sign a 15 year contract with someone.
I do though, I think it is stupid and a dumb investment. To end it, I just think this is quite possibly the best time in White's career to get the term and $ that he wants, and the risk/reward isn't quite there to make him want to sign for less for one year. He's not Hossa - a player who people went crazy for. He's a 2nd pairing defenseman who is undersized and has been fighting that stigma his whole career. Add in that he's been on 4 teams the past two years, and that makes me come to my conclusion that I'd sign for term (3 years minimum) at fair market value (3.5mil/year).


Okay, but if he signed with the Sharks for 2.5mil a year the fan inside me would be rocking out! and I'd be *****in thrilled!

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06-30-2011, 01:38 AM
  #59
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Looking at the Sharks defense with White versus without, I'm definitely on the side that he should be retained. He preformed beautifully for us in the playoffs and has expressed interest in staying, four teams in two years, who can blame him. The team has an opportunity to become very stacked on D, DW should not pass this up. It would also allow Braun more time to develop as it has been made clear the org sees him as the future of the team. His mentioning being strong on the right side, whether true or exaggerated may also have been a negotiation tactic. I have a gut feeling DW left him an offer on the table for between 2.5-3.5 and will wait and see if he bites, similar to what he did with Niemi where he put a lower than average offer on the table and got lucky.

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06-30-2011, 01:58 AM
  #60
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Well, speaking as someone that more than knows from experience... moving 4 times in 2 years sucks big time.

Just thought I'd throw that in there as ammo for the 'who knows' argument.

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06-30-2011, 02:04 AM
  #61
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There's also value in keeping a desirable player off an opposing team.

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06-30-2011, 02:41 AM
  #62
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I'm tempted to try and contact him at his NHLPA email address, though they changed the forumla a while back.

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06-30-2011, 02:43 AM
  #63
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Welp, this is the best I could do with keeping White at a realistic cap hit. I think he might go for this for 3 years. Also I tried to address all holes. With the signing of Kopecky, Ward will probably get around 3mil, so I got him down for 3mil/3years.

Wellwood gets 900k for 2 years. (may be low, but really can't afford anything else). When comparing his previous salaries, he seemed to average around 900k.

Also, this assumes we keep Nitty. The more I think about it, if we are going to go "all in," we should keep Nitty, as it would be scary going into a serious run with Greiss/unproven goal tender. Plus, we need to stay semi responsible and watch out for cap hell the following year. With Nitty coming off the books after next year, we'll gain about 1.5mil in cap room, plus an estimated 3mil bump in the cap (anyone have any idea of the actual cap going up after this year).

Also, this is only a 21 man roster. I just don't see how we get to 22. I have Eaves in there as someone who has speed and can PK. I'm not sure if any of our minimum contract prospects from Worchester can step in and PK right away - I'm assuming they'll try Dezzy, and with the addition of Eaves that leaves us with Eaves, Pavs, Marleau, Ward?, Mitchell, and JT as PKers. Heatley wasn't the worst Pker last year, but I still don't want him out there.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joel Ward ($3.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Dany Heatley ($7.500m)
Torrey Mitchell ($1.366m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Kyle Wellwood ($0.900m)
Jamie McGinn ($0.680m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.540m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.750m)

DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Brent Burns ($3.550m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Ian White ($3.300m)
Mike Moore ($0.512m)

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,182,501; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $117,499

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06-30-2011, 02:59 AM
  #64
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I forsee a Manny Malhotra situation emerging: a guy who wants to stay here but when push comes to shove, someone will pay good $$ to take him elsewhere in free agency.

Not many quality blueliners hitting FA - White would be a fool not to test it IMO. In the same way Doug would be a fool to pay him MV before hand. Two forces pulling in opposite directions - thanks Ian, and bon chance.

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06-30-2011, 08:10 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
I'm not crying for White and his $$$ one bit, but what makes you think that he'll leave 500 to 1mil on the table for a year? For a guy like White, this is probably his only guaranteed chance to cash in, and in the "big picture" as you put it, cashing in for fair market value is the smart thing to do.

...

So you tell me, after all that, how would it be a smart career choice for him to sign here for 2.5mil given all these factors?
Since you didn't actually read my post, I'll reiterate. I do not think he will take less to stay here.

I, like Pinkfloyd, was disagreeing with the notion that A) you can't understand having children until you've done it and B) putting family first means he HAS to go for the money.

You said "Once you have a kid you care to an extent about a job/team, but you start thinking about what is best for your family". Your assertion being that because he has a family he MUST take the money. I call BS. I think because he has a family there are far more factors than JUST the money which make it a much more difficult decision than if he was single, or was without children.

I think a single guy goes for the money without blinking. The married guy with kids has to at least stop and think about it before he goes for the money.

The point being... I think you've got the right conclusion - White will go elsewhere for more money. I just think you're reasoning behind that conclusion is bogus. He'll go, but not because his family dictates it, IMO. The pressure from the agent(s) and the PA will be a huge factor. If he signs for a fraction of what he's worth to stay here it messes up the salary structure for all the other "Ian White type" players because he throws the comps off. Second, he's going to get courted by other teams. The Sharks likely aren't going to be a pursuer - they may make an offer at a cut rate, but they're not chasing him down, IMO. Other teams will probably come wine & dine him a little bit - he's a nice player who will be a good piece of the puzzle for someone.

And before you come back with "You can't truly understand until you've been there". I've been there. I8 months I commuted into heart of the silicon valley - 90 minutes one way, and thanks to the miracle of modern day traffic, 2-4 hours coming home (no commuter lane for me). The 6 figure paycheck was super. Being too tired when I got home to do anything with the kids wasn't. So, now I'm working for half that, but I have a life. Money is not the ultimate decision maker. It's a factor - top 10 on my list, probably top 5 for a professional athlete given the pressures they face that I do not - but I don't believe it has to be the #1 factor.


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Old
06-30-2011, 10:59 AM
  #66
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Since you didn't actually read my post, I'll reiterate. I do not think he will take less to stay here.

I, like Pinkfloyd, was disagreeing with the notion that A) you can't understand having children until you've done it and B) putting family first means he HAS to go for the money.

You said "Once you have a kid you care to an extent about a job/team, but you start thinking about what is best for your family". Your assertion being that because he has a family he MUST take the money. I call BS. I think because he has a family there are far more factors than JUST the money which make it a much more difficult decision than if he was single, or was without children.

I think a single guy goes for the money without blinking. The married guy with kids has to at least stop and think about it before he goes for the money.

The point being... I think you've got the right conclusion - White will go elsewhere for more money. I just think you're reasoning behind that conclusion is bogus. He'll go, but not because his family dictates it, IMO. The pressure from the agent(s) and the PA will be a huge factor. If he signs for a fraction of what he's worth to stay here it messes up the salary structure for all the other "Ian White type" players because he throws the comps off. Second, he's going to get courted by other teams. The Sharks likely aren't going to be a pursuer - they may make an offer at a cut rate, but they're not chasing him down, IMO. Other teams will probably come wine & dine him a little bit - he's a nice player who will be a good piece of the puzzle for someone.

And before you come back with "You can't truly understand until you've been there". I've been there. I8 months I commuted into heart of the silicon valley - 90 minutes one way, and thanks to the miracle of modern day traffic, 2-4 hours coming home (no commuter lane for me). The 6 figure paycheck was super. Being too tired when I got home to do anything with the kids wasn't. So, now I'm working for half that, but I have a life. Money is not the ultimate decision maker. It's a factor - top 10 on my list, probably top 5 for a professional athlete given the pressures they face that I do not - but I don't believe it has to be the #1 factor.

.... you do realize that family was one of many reasons why I think he will not sign here?

Regarding the bold, what does that have to do with Ian White? Guy won't be commuting for 2-4 hours a day... I'm not seeing what your point was? If it is to say that money isn't the end all be all I agree, but in White's case I'm making the point that it is in his best interest to take the money - or close to fair market value.

Also, I really think your previous comment had a bit of hyperbole in it - which is fine, we all do it. But I wanted to point out that at this point in his life Ian White hasn't even made what Sprewel made in that "one year."

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06-30-2011, 11:04 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Pollak
The trade for Burns, of course, makes that even less likely. White should land nicely on his feet and with some decent dollars in his wallet based on his play here, but — after a minimal reporting effort on my part — I’ll stick to my guns and say his landing spot won’t be in the 408 area code.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...8-with-sharks/

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06-30-2011, 11:13 AM
  #68
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Told ya....


.... but you all still got me excited thinking of a D with Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Demers, White, and Murray!

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06-30-2011, 11:13 AM
  #69
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There's also value in keeping a desirable player off an opposing team.
agreed. keep him away from Detroit or Vancouver.

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06-30-2011, 11:15 AM
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agreed. keep him away from Detroit or Vancouver.
Detroit will land one of Wiz, Error, or White. Compared to the other two I almost hope they sign White.

Edit: now that I think about it I hope they just don't sign Error.

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06-30-2011, 11:34 AM
  #71
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It makes sense. He's twice the size as Pav's, he should have twice as many 8's. But I'm not sure I like a certain connection with that particular number.

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06-30-2011, 11:43 AM
  #72
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Detroit will land one of Wiz, Error, or White. Compared to the other two I almost hope they sign White.

Edit: now that I think about it I hope they just don't sign Error.
I don't think they will sign Ehrhoff, though I could be completely wrong on this. Detroit isn't a team to screw up the future for an immediate and temporary fix.

Ehrhoff seems like the type of player that will want to get as much money as he can this year in free agency and Detroit definitely won't offer that. Someone might pay up to 6m for Ehrhoff, I'm just glad I can say it won't be the Sharks who are overpaying him.

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06-30-2011, 11:58 AM
  #73
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I don't think they will sign Ehrhoff, though I could be completely wrong on this. Detroit isn't a team to screw up the future for an immediate and temporary fix.

Ehrhoff seems like the type of player that will want to get as much money as he can this year in free agency and Detroit definitely won't offer that. Someone might pay up to 6m for Ehrhoff, I'm just glad I can say it won't be the Sharks who are overpaying him.
The rumors I have got said that Error was #2 on Detroit's want list behind Pitkanen. They haven't had issues with weak defense for the guy on the right point (Schneider then Rafalski). They overpaid for both of the previous players who held that role. Someone else who is relatively in tune said that Error would either be a homerun for them or a complete strikeout, depending on how he dealt with Babcock. The counter to those rumors is that Babcock has been bugging Holland for ages to pick up one or two that are stronger defensively.

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06-30-2011, 12:04 PM
  #74
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The rumors I have got said that Error was #2 on Detroit's want list behind Pitkanen. They haven't had issues with weak defense for the guy on the right point (Schneider then Rafalski). They overpaid for both of the previous players who held that role. Someone else who is relatively in tune said that Error would either be a homerun for them or a complete strikeout, depending on how he dealt with Babcock. The counter to those rumors is that Babcock has been bugging Holland for ages to pick up one or two that are stronger defensively.
Babcock and Holland have seemed to not be on the exact same page recently. You'll hear Babcock talk about wanting to get a little more speed/youth etc. in the forwards, while Holland will say he's happy with their top 6. Just little things like that.

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06-30-2011, 12:10 PM
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Babcock and Holland have seemed to not be on the exact same page recently. You'll hear Babcock talk about wanting to get a little more speed/youth etc. in the forwards, while Holland will say he's happy with their top 6. Just little things like that.
Just a little more right there. Sort of provides an interesting backlight to the Wings situation. Kind of the Bertuzzi thing, Babcock wants a little more speed. It's funny also because they do have Abdelkader and Helm.

The other thing where that applies is the Sharks. Do they downplay C&C hockey a little because of speed issues? Go to a thing where they try to get clean entries with specific danglers and have the dmen go with d to d endlessly until they open an entry point. I don't think the Sharks are well suited to the alternative to C&C, but I could see them tweaking the entry/possession strategy if they strikeout in FA.

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