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08-04-2011, 12:14 PM
  #101
Overkamp
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Originally Posted by Gali39 View Post
right and contact took place two steps away from the box, about the time the puck had just reached perron, that is the definition of a suicide pass. anything that causes perron to look away from the direction of the play or behind him for the puck is a suicide pass, his head was down, he was unsuspecting due to the pass, if the pass was not moving to him, his head would have been up, and he would not have been vulnerable, dont believe me? go make it a poll on the polls forums, i bet you 85% up will say it was a suicide pass.
No, it's not. Pietrangelo did not pass the puck behind Perron. That's the definition of a suicide pass.

I'm not going to go make a poll with the fickle HF board posters. I'm not 12.

Agree to disagree.

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08-04-2011, 12:24 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Overkamp View Post
No, it's not. Pietrangelo did not pass the puck behind Perron. That's the definition of a suicide pass.

I'm not going to go make a poll with the fickle HF board posters. I'm not 12.

Agree to disagree.
the puck was coming from a direction behind perron, which caused him to look back for it,

pieterangelo certainly wasn't in front of him,

the definition of a suicide pass-
Suicide pass
a pass that forces the receiver to look down or away from the play in order to find the puck, leaving them vulnerable to a powerful body check.

your just scared to be proven wrong, but anyways im not trying to make this a pissfest, i just wanted to see if perron was on par with mueller with returning.

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08-04-2011, 12:34 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Gali39 View Post
the puck was coming from a direction behind perron, which caused him to look back for it,

pieterangelo certainly wasn't in front of him,

the definition of a suicide pass-
Suicide pass
a pass that forces the receiver to look down or away from the play in order to find the puck, leaving them vulnerable to a powerful body check.

your just scared to be proven wrong, but anyways im not trying to make this a pissfest, i just wanted to see if perron was on par with mueller with returning.
Pretty much seems like an oxymoron to me. Good grief.

Here, I can post definitions from other sources too.

Quote:
When a player passes the puck to a teamate, but miscalculates his speed and puts the pass slightly behind him.
Quote:
a suicide pass (hockey)a pass behind the player causing him to look back
See what I did there?

Your example would make nearly 50% of all breakout passes suicide passes..

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08-04-2011, 12:44 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Overkamp View Post
Pretty much seems like an oxymoron to me. Good grief.

Here, I can post definitions from other sources too.





See what I did there?

Your example would make nearly 50% of all breakout passes suicide passes..
sure if you want to keep going, thats why its the defenseman's responsibility to see if it's safe to pass the puck to the forward, he had a player in a venerable position due to thornton just stepping out of the box, maybe he didnt see thornton there, but he was a step away, that's why ap can be held accountable,

it's not a suicide pass when there is no pressure from an oncoming checker on the opposing team, no chance a player can be destroyed.

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08-04-2011, 01:05 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Gali39 View Post
sure if you want to keep going, thats why its the defenseman's responsibility to see if it's safe to pass the puck to the forward, he had a player in a venerable position due to thornton just stepping out of the box, maybe he didnt see thornton there, but he was a step away, that's why ap can be held accountable,

it's not a suicide pass when there is no pressure from an oncoming checker on the opposing team, no chance a player can be destroyed.
Hence, why I stated Joe was still in the box (one foot out) when Pietrangelo made the pass! No matter there is one and only one person to blame..his name is Joe Thornton. You keep tweaking your analysis of the situation to prove a pointless point (pun intended).

Again, we're going to agree to disagree as previously stated..

Peas

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08-04-2011, 05:04 PM
  #106
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Feel free to take your discussion to PMs if you'd like, this isn't the place for your pissfest.

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08-05-2011, 10:57 AM
  #107
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why wasn't thornton suspended...it was a head shot, was it not?

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08-05-2011, 11:26 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czeckers View Post
why wasn't thornton suspended...it was a head shot, was it not?
He was suspended for 2 games.

Can this rehashing of this topic end now please? If you want to debate it, go read the old threads on the main board and get emotional.

The current thread is about Perron's recovery and speculation about when he returns and his impact.

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08-05-2011, 11:26 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by czeckers View Post
why wasn't thornton suspended...it was a head shot, was it not?
He got 2 games.

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08-05-2011, 11:27 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by czeckers View Post
why wasn't thornton suspended...it was a head shot, was it not?
He was suspended two games.

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08-07-2011, 01:13 AM
  #111
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Halak banging his stick could have saved Perron, instead he's standing there watching the play looking right at Thornton get ready to leave the box. Goalie FAIL.

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08-08-2011, 02:32 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectr17 View Post
Halak banging his stick could have saved Perron, instead he's standing there watching the play looking right at Thornton get ready to leave the box. Goalie FAIL.
Oh my. I don't blame Thornton for the hit, but you're blaming Halak for this? This all happened in about a second. How the **** could Halak have seen this coming if Perron/Thornton/players on ice/players on bench didn't?

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08-08-2011, 12:22 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bob Sacamanu View Post
Oh my. I don't blame Thornton for the hit, but you're blaming Halak for this? This all happened in about a second. How the **** could Halak have seen this coming if Perron/Thornton/players on ice/players on bench didn't?
Thornton saw him coming. Video doesn't lie. He braced himself for the eventual hit as he was coming out of the box. If you don't know something is coming, there is no way you'd know to brace yourself or prepare yourself for it. Watch the video. You can see Thornton brace himself and turn his shoulder slightly.

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08-08-2011, 05:22 PM
  #114
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I don't view Petro's pass to Perron as a suicide pass since at the time he passed the puck, Thornton wasn't there. He was still in the penalty box. If Thornton had been there then yes, that's pretty much the definition of a suicide pass.

When you think about it, there are a ton of things which led to Perron getting knocked silly and why he has been out so long.

-Thornton's penalty expiring at the right time.
-Thornton waiting in the box 2 seconds to jump out at just the precise moment.
-Perron taking his route right in the area next to the penalty box.
-Petro passing him the puck while thinking the coast is clear as Thornton is still in the box at the time.
-Thornton then being able to take 2 strides right at Perron before the puck reaches him.
-Perron having his head turned back (not down) as any and every player would in that situation to accept the pass.
-Thornton being that much bigger than Perron.
-Halak not banging his stick on the ice to signify to his teammates that Thornton's penalty was expiring (although I'll note that goalies oftentimes don't do this except to warn his teammates of a possibly breakaway opportunity against and this was a different situation).

Basically, all those things came together into a recipe of disaster.

One could also speculate that the following things might have also caused the concussion symptoms to last longer than they otherwise would but again, it's something we'll never know for sure.
-Perron returning the game.
-Perron going on a flight afterward (there's mixed ideas on if the increased pressure of the altitude might have made things worse).

The bottom line though is what's done is done and all we can really do now is give Perron our best and wish him well in his recovery. He's making progress, albeit fairly slow progress but at least it's progress in the right direction. There are obvious reasons to wonder how this might affect his career long-term, ie. how much more susceptible to additional concussions will he be? will it require him to retire sooner than he otherwise would have?, etc. but let's just hope for the best. Hopefully Perron is able to return relatively early this season and is able to remain healthy once he does return.

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08-08-2011, 05:38 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamanu View Post
Oh my. I don't blame Thornton for the hit, but you're blaming Halak for this? This all happened in about a second. How the **** could Halak have seen this coming if Perron/Thornton/players on ice/players on bench didn't?
Goalie not in the play is staring right at the scoreboard and penalty timer count down, something the players INVOLVED in the play don't have the luxury of. Last time I checked it's the goalie's responsibility to bang his stick to alert other teammates of a player coming out of the box, whether for a breakaway or someone about to be creamed. You slap the stick so those who can't see (Perron) know instantly an opposing player is coming out of the box and can alter their skating or pass. I know if I'm looking back for a suicide pass in front of the penalty box and hear my goalie slapping his stick I'm bailing out, or at least bracing and ducking. Most players with situational awareness would do the same.

Also, if you're half way into the game you're playing goal in you'd see Thornton stand up, signaling he's about to come out of the box. Time to bang your stick instead of imitating a statue. Yeah it's a small thing but those sublte things win you games.


Last edited by Fred Murtz: 08-08-2011 at 05:47 PM.
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08-08-2011, 05:53 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectr17 View Post
Goalie not in the play is staring right at the scoreboard and penalty timer count down, something the players INVOLVED in the play don't have the luxury of. Last time I checked it's the goalie's responsibility to bang his stick to alert other teammates of a player coming out of the box, whether for a breakaway or someone about to be creamed. You slap the stick so those who can't see (Perron) know instantly an opposing player is coming out of the box and alter their skating or pass. I know if I'm looking back for a suicide pass and hear my goalie slapping his stick I'm bailing out.

Also, if you're half way into the game you're playing goal in you'd see Thornton stand up, signaling he's about to come out of the box. Time to bang your stick instead of imitating a statue.

Obviously you're not a golfer

.

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Old
08-08-2011, 07:23 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL fan in IA View Post
I don't view Petro's pass to Perron as a suicide pass since at the time he passed the puck, Thornton wasn't there. He was still in the penalty box. If Thornton had been there then yes, that's pretty much the definition of a suicide pass.

When you think about it, there are a ton of things which led to Perron getting knocked silly and why he has been out so long.

-Thornton's penalty expiring at the right time.
-Thornton waiting in the box 2 seconds to jump out at just the precise moment.
-Perron taking his route right in the area next to the penalty box.
-Petro passing him the puck while thinking the coast is clear as Thornton is still in the box at the time.
-Thornton then being able to take 2 strides right at Perron before the puck reaches him.
-Perron having his head turned back (not down) as any and every player would in that situation to accept the pass.
-Thornton being that much bigger than Perron.
-Halak not banging his stick on the ice to signify to his teammates that Thornton's penalty was expiring (although I'll note that goalies oftentimes don't do this except to warn his teammates of a possibly breakaway opportunity against and this was a different situation).

Basically, all those things came together into a recipe of disaster.

One could also speculate that the following things might have also caused the concussion symptoms to last longer than they otherwise would but again, it's something we'll never know for sure.
-Perron returning the game.
-Perron going on a flight afterward (there's mixed ideas on if the increased pressure of the altitude might have made things worse).

The bottom line though is what's done is done and all we can really do now is give Perron our best and wish him well in his recovery. He's making progress, albeit fairly slow progress but at least it's progress in the right direction. There are obvious reasons to wonder how this might affect his career long-term, ie. how much more susceptible to additional concussions will he be? will it require him to retire sooner than he otherwise would have?, etc. but let's just hope for the best. Hopefully Perron is able to return relatively early this season and is able to remain healthy once he does return.
I give it two or three more pages until the thread turns into this:

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Old
08-08-2011, 07:56 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectr17 View Post
Goalie not in the play is staring right at the scoreboard and penalty timer count down, something the players INVOLVED in the play don't have the luxury of. Last time I checked it's the goalie's responsibility to bang his stick to alert other teammates of a player coming out of the box, whether for a breakaway or someone about to be creamed. You slap the stick so those who can't see (Perron) know instantly an opposing player is coming out of the box and can alter their skating or pass. I know if I'm looking back for a suicide pass in front of the penalty box and hear my goalie slapping his stick I'm bailing out, or at least bracing and ducking. Most players with situational awareness would do the same.

Also, if you're half way into the game you're playing goal in you'd see Thornton stand up, signaling he's about to come out of the box. Time to bang your stick instead of imitating a statue. Yeah it's a small thing but those sublte things win you games.
If he was banging the stick to let his team know the penalty is over, then thats all I am thinking as a player. "Alright we killed that off". At no point in my hockey playing days did I associate a banking stick to mean I was about to get creamed.

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08-09-2011, 03:03 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
If he was banging the stick to let his team know the penalty is over, then thats all I am thinking as a player. "Alright we killed that off". At no point in my hockey playing days did I associate a banking stick to mean I was about to get creamed.
I guess that's where you and I differ, yeah you just killed the penalty but you'd better be moving on to your next thought real fast. Knowing WHO was in the box and what he's going to do when he hits the ice dictates how you react to the stick slapping. A quick peek at their bench before the penalized player steps on the ice will tell you if the coach is waving him to come off or stay on. It's called anticipation. If the guy in the box is a headhunter the last thing I'm going to be doing is public skating and thinking about the great PK we just had, I'm swiveling my coconut to see where he is. Stick slapping can let you know that the easy puck retrieve you just had is now gonna be a foot race. It's a heads up if you're not already aware of the 6th skater coming back on. And yes, I've seen a couple players in my career who heard the slapping in time to either deke the guy coming out of the box for a break or duck the hit. With Perron's intensity and skill set I would guess he'd of had time to make a move. Heck, if you watch the video Petro still has the puck when Thornton is standing up waiting for the PB door to open, a heads up from Halak might have even changed Petro's pass decision. I was kind of surprised Halak just stood there and watched the play. Do they even teach Euros to slap their goalie sticks? Is it just for potential break aways as STL Fan in IA pointed out? What harm is there in slapping the stick every time?

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08-09-2011, 05:26 AM
  #120
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Anyone else think Perron could come back midseason and be productive?

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08-09-2011, 11:58 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by spectr17 View Post
I guess that's where you and I differ, yeah you just killed the penalty but you'd better be moving on to your next thought real fast. Knowing WHO was in the box and what he's going to do when he hits the ice dictates how you react to the stick slapping. A quick peek at their bench before the penalized player steps on the ice will tell you if the coach is waving him to come off or stay on. It's called anticipation. If the guy in the box is a headhunter the last thing I'm going to be doing is public skating and thinking about the great PK we just had, I'm swiveling my coconut to see where he is. Stick slapping can let you know that the easy puck retrieve you just had is now gonna be a foot race. It's a heads up if you're not already aware of the 6th skater coming back on. And yes, I've seen a couple players in my career who heard the slapping in time to either deke the guy coming out of the box for a break or duck the hit. With Perron's intensity and skill set I would guess he'd of had time to make a move. Heck, if you watch the video Petro still has the puck when Thornton is standing up waiting for the PB door to open, a heads up from Halak might have even changed Petro's pass decision. I was kind of surprised Halak just stood there and watched the play. Do they even teach Euros to slap their goalie sticks? Is it just for potential break aways as STL Fan in IA pointed out? What harm is there in slapping the stick every time?
Hey here's a thought, it didn't happen and it can't be fixed, and Halak's stick wouldn't have kept Thornton's shoulder out of Perron's face unless Thornton wanted it to. This all happened in about 5 seconds time, Perron immediately said he never thought of Thornton as a dirty player that would go for his head on purpose; so no he wouldn't have anticipated to duck out of the way and give his team an icing call out of paranoia. The Blues got their 5 min PP, Thorton got his 2 games, Perron got a goal, no one could have protected him from sticking around unless they knew better, so the fact of the matter is nothing can be changed to remedy the situation.

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08-09-2011, 12:15 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie the Blue View Post
Anyone else think Perron could come back midseason and be productive?
Assuming the concussion symptoms resolve, I think its going to take about 3 months just to get his body back into NHL shape. I think he'll come back this season, but not at the level he was when he left.

Fortunately, team depth will allow for him to come along slowly and not ask him to do more than he needs to. I'd love to see him back at the all-star break. That would be enough time for him to be a contributor in the play-offs. I'll be pretty pleased if we get that out of Perron this season.

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08-09-2011, 02:48 PM
  #123
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"oh hai guys, this thread is really supposed to be about Perrons recovery and not arguing the hit from months and months ago, don't mind me. Just moderating around the mess, ooops, you dropped some of the rhetoric let me just get that for you. Go on about your bidnezz, nothing to see here..."

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08-10-2011, 02:08 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie the Blue View Post
Anyone else think Perron could come back midseason and be productive?
I have been trying to find some real data on this but you guys might be able to help:

Has there been a player in recent history - last 10 years or so - that was hit and out with a concussion or concussion like symptoms for over a year that ever played as well or better than they played prior to the hit?

I am really thinking we have seen the last of our beloved 57. I just don't see the evidence supporting his return and being even close to the dominance we hoped for him. He was at least 2 years from reaching what I would have thought was going to be his peak when he got injured.

Thoughts?

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08-10-2011, 03:35 PM
  #125
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I really don't understand why people are concluding Perron's career is done. That seems like a gigantic leap. Dude is having a slow recovery, but it is progressing. When its far enough along, he'll resume working out. When he's in good enough shape and cleared for contact, he'll rejoin the team. When he's able to be useful on the ice, he'll be playing again.

Might he be susceptible to recurrent concussions? Maybe....but that's no guarantee. But without recurrent concussions piling up, I don't see why he'd contemplate retiring.

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