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*OFFICIAL* Windsor Spitfires 2011-12 Season Thread (Pt.2)

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Old
09-18-2011, 04:13 PM
  #976
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Foolish to think the Spitfires are in the same echelon as the Sting are at now. One team is geared up for a championship, the other starting a rebuild. That showed last night and was reflected in the number of penalties the Spits took. Windsor's pk did well I thought, but it was just a matter of time before the bottom fell out and it did.

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09-18-2011, 04:21 PM
  #977
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Anyone else having issues logging in, or logging in then it logs you out before you can post? Been doing this off and on for months and I haven't figured out why.

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09-18-2011, 04:27 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
My disappointment began at the draft when they selected Smith and DeKort in round 2 and they have nothing to show for those picks this year it looks like. Well you can include Bateman I guess since the pick they got in the Carnevale deal was used to get Bateman. Still like cfaub said you need to get these kids ice time at the highest level. We can throw out examples of the organization using Jr B to develop players eg. Blacker but he still got in 22 games for the Spits and all their playoff games. Wellwood he still got in 23 games and all their playoff games. DeKort isn't #1 goalie in LaSalle, he got some run against Sarnia because the game was out of hand 22 mins in. DeKort may not end up with much development time period this year. Smith will be in LaSalle. I just want to see the top picks get time in Windsor. I think it's a myth players develop in Jr B and suddenly are ready to play in the OHL. Jr B isn't very good hockey.
It's only a myth because you want it to be a myth.

You're getting all upset over 2 players? How many goalies make an impact at 16? Do you know for a fact that Smith will be "wasted" away in Jr. B all year? Lets just ignore my earlier post that listed the players who are going to get major ice time this year...and the Spits are doomed because Hunter Smith isn't playing in the OHL this year.

You just proved my point that your looking for the smallest thing to be negative about. I'll let the guys who've been around this game at lot longer and at a higher level than any of us do what they do best.

Too many things can happen

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09-18-2011, 04:28 PM
  #979
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Anyone else having issues logging in, or logging in then it logs you out before you can post? Been doing this off and on for months and I haven't figured out why.
No issues here.

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09-18-2011, 04:29 PM
  #980
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From what I have heard the most the spits have been offered is a 5th rd pick

the rd he was drafted by the spits
This is absurd. I guess we know why WR didn't trade Ellis last season - he must have been offered one second for him because that's where he was drafted. Campbell was also drafted in the first round of the NHL draft.

If we can't move Campbell or Cullen, I assume Cully would be released to make room for DeKort come the trade deadline.

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09-18-2011, 04:44 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Libbs View Post
It's only a myth because you want it to be a myth.

You're getting all upset over 2 players? How many goalies make an impact at 16? Do you know for a fact that Smith will be "wasted" away in Jr. B all year? Lets just ignore my earlier post that listed the players who are going to get major ice time this year...and the Spits are doomed because Hunter Smith isn't playing in the OHL this year.

You just proved my point that your looking for the smallest thing to be negative about. I'll let the guys who've been around this game at lot longer and at a higher level than any of us do what they do best.

Too many things can happen
How many goalies selected in the top 2 rounds go on to have major success in the OHL? This is what I posed earlier during the draft and the answer was not many. So just as you can pose that question I can respond with another. The pick of DeKort shows a lot of hubris in Rychel. Keeps on saying the only thing they haven't done as an organization is develop a top tier goalie. Why is that so bad? Instead they took guys with high ceilings who played a lot early on. That won't happen with DeKort. Nobody said Smith is doomed but he's not going to learn anything by playing in Jr B. He's a big kid who needs to play against bigger kids and that will happen in the OHL. Want to charge big time prices when your top tier picks aren't in the OHL? Not buying.

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09-18-2011, 04:49 PM
  #982
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Please please please please Cortellessa
Agreed, but only because Dunning is tedious right now. We have several players who do the same thing. Nothing against Dunning, but I'd rather have a youngster do the job.

That said, I'm impressed by Feasey. He has stood out and made himself noticed on the ice. Could be one of those kids that quietly gets 15-20 goals this year.

Regarding opener - Agreed on Legend's lineup. Guelph isn't an overly physical team, so I don't think you need all four beasts (Czinder, Alonge, Bowen, Bilcke) in there. Two should be alright.

Regarding DeKort - Get him as much as he can handle in LaSalle, then, once a goalie is dealt at the deadline, he comes up and he's ours til he graduates.

Regarding Smith - While I'd LOVE to see him play right now, you can tell he's a step behind and not quite used to his body. Let him throw his weight around and get some foot work in with LaSalle. He'll be a monster next year with confidence. That's scary.

Regarding MacQueen - I think he's going the Sullivan route, where if he's dealt, he's done in the O and goes to school. If Ryan returns, MacQueen is University bound. Nothing against the kid, but we have young goal scorers, smaller players, and there's no real need for him. He's like Dunning in that fashion.

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1. I agree getting in games is important for goalie. Keep in mind though Windsor is gunning for 2014 Memorial Cup. They want DeKort to be ready for that. In order to have an impressive bid you need to have a goalie that's showing signs of being the man. I am not sure if him sticking in LaSalle and throwing him into the fire next year makes sense. Heck they may still need another goalie next year as well. No guarantees DeKort is starter next year either.
There's a difference between going from Min Midget (or a similar level) to the OHL, and going from MM to Jr B. It's essentially going from the OHL to the NHL, or the OHL to the AHL. Jordan is going to get a ton of playing time with us down the road. He's not going to get it here, unless we deal Campbell or Cullen real fast. Send him down until a deal is made, get him the ice time, and go from there. Besides, there's no reason he has to be thrown into the fire next year. If he backs up whoever is left between Cullen and Campbell, he'll get that natural development this year.

Legend, you said pencil in DeKort and Kuchmey next year. Would either one of them go for that? If DeKort is the goalie of the future, would Kuchmey accept a back-up role?

The Carrick deal was a reasonable one, but not a great one. I LOVED having Jake in the line-up and nobody is going to convince me the concept was bad. What we gave up was too much, but I think if Jake hadn't taken the penalty in Owen Sound, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Our expectations were set far too high after Lane MacDermid, too.

One question I have - why the restriction on 15/16 year olds? If a team wants to ice six or seven, why shouldn't they be allowed?

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In goal we know Campbell and Cullen will be back to start. We are rebuilding so do we really need two experienced goaltenders while our second round pick that is touted as the goaltender of the future plays JR. B? I do feel that if he will be riding the bench then yes he should be playing down but if this team is rebuilding then I am sure starting one out of every three games (20+) at a higher level would be as beneficial as 30 games at a lower level.
From what has bee posted on here, and what I've heard at the rink, I don't think the intention was to start with two veterans. It was to deal one of the vets and let DeKort back-up. With both veterans still around, you can't have DeKort being a third-string, so off to LaSalle he goes for much deserved playing time, until a deal is struck.

[QUOTE]I don't think it's the sky is falling but the last couple games the defense you will see to start the season is the one that played against Sarnia and they gave up 10 goals in 2 games. [QUOTE]

Given Sarnia is in the upper echelon of teams this season, I'm not using them as a measuring stick. Guelph will be key because they're expected to be near us in the standings. I realize we did well against Plymouth, but their forwards aren't quite as explosive as Sarnias.

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My disappointment began at the draft when they selected Smith and DeKort in round 2 and they have nothing to show for those picks this year it looks like.
It's the pre-season! What have Smith or DeKort done for you to say "they have nothing to show for those picks"? Just because they're sent to Jr B? I think people are forgetting how bad we were with the youngsters at the start of the last process. It's not like they were golden kids from the first pre-season game until the Memorial Cup win in Brandon. Give it time.

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I think it's a myth players develop in Jr B and suddenly are ready to play in the OHL. Jr B isn't very good hockey.
It's a stepping stone, like I said earlier with the NHL/AHL comparison. I'd rather have a kid get 20-25 min of ice in Jr B, with occasional practices for the Spits, than 3-5 min of ice on a fourth line with the Spitfires.

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How many goalies selected in the top 2 rounds go on to have major success in the OHL?
Challenge accepted.

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The pick of DeKort shows a lot of hubris in Rychel. Keeps on saying the only thing they haven't done as an organization is develop a top tier goalie. Why is that so bad?
It saves other assets. If you keep dealing for the top goaltenders, or bringing them in when they're 18 or 19 like Campbell, you spend the money, players, or picks to get them. DeKort cost you a second round pick. That's it!

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Nobody said Smith is doomed but he's not going to learn anything by playing in Jr B.
You know this how?

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Old
09-18-2011, 05:46 PM
  #983
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OHLTG

excellent post agree with all your pts

in regards to Kuchmey and Dekort I say yes both would be okay the setup.

Kuchmey was not on radar scene before rookie camp so that he got a contract

What happens from here on forward is to Kuchmey and his development

Would not surprise however if Spits have a 18 or 19 year old goalie next to be with

Dekort,etc

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09-18-2011, 05:47 PM
  #984
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OHLTG

excellent post agree with all your pts

in regards to Kuchmey and Dekort I say yes both would be okay the setup.

Kuchmey was not on radar scene before rookie camp so that he got a contract

What happens from here on forward is to Kuchmey and his development

Would not surprise however if Spits have a 18 or 19 year old goalie next to be with

Dekort,etc
Edit

should read 18 or 19 year old goalie next year

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Old
09-18-2011, 06:18 PM
  #985
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I don't necessarily believe going from MM to the OHL is that big of a leap especially for top tier players. There are a lot of 1st rounders and 2nd rounders that come into the league and have good seasons depending on the situation they are put in. Windsor should be a perfect situation for Smith to come in and make an impact, not with the Vipers.

I think you forget about the contributions the rookies made during the rough year for Windsor in 06/07

Nemisz 11g 23a
Henrique 23g 21a
Cundari 6g 16a

I think the fact the team was so bad it's clouding your vision. Those 3 both made very good impacts on the Spits in their rookie year.

I am going by the fact DeKort and Smith didn't make the Spits this year out of camp after being given every opportunity to make the team. When the opening lineups are called out and DeKort and Smith aren't dressed that's not good.

Like I said earlier Jr B hockey isn't very good hockey. The top 6 forwards on Jr B teams are borderline 11-12th forwards on all other OHL teams. That's not a high caliber hockey.

It doesn't save other assets. It only saves other assets if the goalie is actually good. There's a reason why not a lot of goalies are selected high in the draft and if they are there's a low success rate.

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09-18-2011, 06:41 PM
  #986
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I am going by the fact DeKort and Smith didn't make the Spits this year out of camp after being given every opportunity to make the team. When the opening lineups are called out and DeKort and Smith aren't dressed that's not good.
While I may agree on Smith, you can't look at DeKort like that. The Spitfires have been trying to deal Cullen and Campbell. It's been well publicized on here. Do you want them to have DeKort sitting in the stands, watching, while Cullen and Campbell split time? I don't get what you'd like them to do with DeKort if they have two veterans in the pipes.

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It doesn't save other assets. It only saves other assets if the goalie is actually good. There's a reason why not a lot of goalies are selected high in the draft and if they are there's a low success rate.
So, DeKort has yet to play an official OHL game, yet you're writing him off? Sorry, I have a bit of an issue with that.

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09-18-2011, 06:41 PM
  #987
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Could that lack of success be due to the goalie being placed in a situation they weren't ready to handle (ie playing in the OHL as a 16yo)? Maybe a forward can make the jump from midget with little adjustment, but the shooters from Midget to OHL is night and day.

You can't hold a goalie to the same standard as a player. How many goalies (regardless of draft position) have a major impact before their 18yo season?

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09-18-2011, 06:45 PM
  #988
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Hunter Smith was always a project. Kid turned 16 a week ago and is 6'7" 215lbs, he grew an inch since the draft. He needs to get used to his body. Not playing in the OHL as a 16 yr old doesn't doom your career.

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09-18-2011, 06:50 PM
  #989
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Hunter Smith was always a project. Kid turned 16 a week ago and is 6'7" 215lbs, he grew an inch since the draft. He needs to get used to his body. Not playing in the OHL as a 16 yr old doesn't doom your career.
He needs to step up next year though because that's his draft eligible year. He can't really afford to toil in Jr B and then have the pressure of having to be drafted next year.

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09-18-2011, 07:15 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Libbs View Post
Could that lack of success be due to the goalie being placed in a situation they weren't ready to handle (ie playing in the OHL as a 16yo)? Maybe a forward can make the jump from midget with little adjustment, but the shooters from Midget to OHL is night and day.

You can't hold a goalie to the same standard as a player. How many goalies (regardless of draft position) have a major impact before their 18yo season?
I agree shooters are night and day. Also remember these goalies drafted into the OHL quite often played on stacked teams where they rarely lost because they had a lot of top tier guys. Probably another reason why goalies aren't picked very high. Here are the starting goaltenders for the OHL teams and where they were drafted.

Oshawa-Altshuller 3rd round
Kingston-Bobkov 2nd pick by London import draft
Peterborough-Probably Morrison 6th round Kitchener or D'Agostini 3rd round Peterborough or OHagan 3rd round SSM
Belleville-Malcolm Subban 11th round
Ottawa-Mrazek 1st round import pick

Barrie-Windsor 4th round, maybe Niederberger import pick
Brampton-Machovsky import pick
Sudbury-Mattsson import pick
Mississauga-Anderson 1st round pick
Niagara-Visentin 3rd round pick

London-Houser free agent signing
Kitchener-Gibson 11th round
Guelph-Sparks 8th round
Erie-Teichmann 1st round
Owen Sound-Binnington 2nd round

Windsor-Campbell 6th round
Sarnia-Maxwell 2nd round
Saginaw-Galansky import pick or Paterson 2nd round
Plymouth-Wedgewood 7th round
Sault-Perugini 3rd round, Murray 2nd round

Now if we break it down to best goalies in the league who do we have Visentin, Subban, Houser, Anderson and probably Wedgewood. 1st rounder in Anderson but I think people are skeptical based upon the system Mississauga played. Visentin was a 3rd rounder and the other 3 none were selected before the 7th round with Houser being a free agent. Where is the value in selecting a goaltender high? We can have a discussion on import picks but it would be difficult to quantify their value based on the nature of the draft.

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09-18-2011, 07:27 PM
  #991
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Not really sure what point you're trying to make with this list.

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09-18-2011, 07:32 PM
  #992
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Not really sure what point you're trying to make with this list.
You don't have to draft a goalie with a high pick to get a good goalie. In fact drafting is all about value and you can make the case guys like Subban, Wedgewood, Houser have been more valuable than guys selected with high picks. Is it still wise to select goalies higher than round 3?

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09-18-2011, 07:46 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
You don't have to draft a goalie with a high pick to get a good goalie. In fact drafting is all about value and you can make the case guys like Subban, Wedgewood, Houser have been more valuable than guys selected with high picks. Is it still wise to select goalies higher than round 3?
I'll ask this again, how many of these goalies were played as a 16yo? With being a high pick has the added pressure of having to perform as a 16yo. Just look at Teichman.

Can you not make more of a relevant comparison between a goalie and his early exposure to the league rather than their draft position?

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09-18-2011, 07:55 PM
  #994
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I'll ask this again, how many of these goalies were played as a 16yo? With being a high pick has the added pressure of having to perform as a 16yo. Just look at Teichman.

Can you not make more of a relevant comparison between a goalie and his early exposure to the league rather than their draft position?
Not many and I think this is the reason why teams don't invest high picks into goalies. You're already wasting a year and not getting much out of a draft pick. In the case of DeKort he has a lot of work to do, he's not #1 in LaSalle and there's no guarantee he will ever be #1 and get the development time.

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09-18-2011, 08:05 PM
  #995
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Just to clear up one thing, Razor, DeKort missed the first two games with a hurt hand, but played the game last Wednesday, although the gamesheet has him backing up.

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09-18-2011, 08:12 PM
  #996
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Just to clear up one thing, Razor, DeKort missed the first two games with a hurt hand, but played the game last Wednesday, although the gamesheet has him backing up.
Okay because the only game action they have him in was against Sarnia.

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09-18-2011, 08:12 PM
  #997
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Didn't five goalies go in the first two rounds this past draft?

Also Campbell and Gibson would have been first rounders if they didn't lean hard towards the NCAA route.

I see a lot of first, seconds and thirds on that goalie list actually.

If you're not playing in the OHL at 16 you might as well hang up the skates? Even if it's because you're behind two veteran goalies or because you're a giant and folks that big usually take much longer to develop? Smith was drafted as a project - he offers a really intriguing package if he could put it together. Webermin played sparingly because he wasn't physically ready, Clarke - a second rounder - didn't play with the Spits because he seemed shell shocked, and both are getting good reviews this pre-season. I guess we should write off Deeley, Bowen, Feasey - and hell Ben Johnson was playing high school hockey as a 16 yr old.

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09-18-2011, 08:31 PM
  #998
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Didn't five goalies go in the first two rounds this past draft?

Also Campbell and Gibson would have been first rounders if they didn't lean hard towards the NCAA route.

I see a lot of first, seconds and thirds on that goalie list actually.

If you're not playing in the OHL at 16 you might as well hang up the skates? Even if it's because you're behind two veteran goalies or because you're a giant and folks that big usually take much longer to develop? Smith was drafted as a project - he offers a really intriguing package if he could put it together. Webermin played sparingly because he wasn't physically ready, Clarke - a second rounder - didn't play with the Spits because he seemed shell shocked, and both are getting good reviews this pre-season. I guess we should write off Deeley, Bowen, Feasey - and hell Ben Johnson was playing high school hockey as a 16 yr old.
Who said for these players to hang up the skates because they didn't perform well at 16? Once again it's not about DeKort being behind 2 goalies in Windsor. It's about this being a rebuilding year and wins and losses are taking a back seat to development.

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09-18-2011, 08:31 PM
  #999
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You don't have to draft a goalie with a high pick to get a good goalie. In fact drafting is all about value and you can make the case guys like Subban, Wedgewood, Houser have been more valuable than guys selected with high picks. Is it still wise to select goalies higher than round 3?
That can be said with any player, though. We've seen players in rounds 7+ be drafted or dominate the OHL.

BTW, 11 of those goaltenders you listed were rounds 1-3. A lot of them ended up doing very well.

Going back a while...

2002:

1st rd - Dan LeCosta - 3rd round pick Columbus
2nd rd - Carlo DiRienzo - college route after OHL
3rd rd - Justin Peters - 2nd rd Carolina, doing well in their minors.


2003:

None taken in rounds 1-3


2004:

3rd rd - Ryan Daniels - college route
3rd rd - Parker Van Buskirk - minor pros


2005:

2nd rd - Darryl Borden - done after OHL


2006:

2nd rd - Peter Di Salvo - great career with Barrie/Osh. No word on location this year.

3rd rd - Eddie Pasquale - 4th rd Atl...dominant with Saginaw.
3rd rd - Chris Carrozzi - 6th rd Atl - Great with Mississauga.

2007:

Rds 1-3 had Zador, Maxwell, Stajcer, O'Hagan, and Foote. I'd say they've done well for themselves.

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09-18-2011, 08:33 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
It's about this being a rebuilding year and wins and losses are taking a back seat to development.
How? If you're referring to Smith, I can see both sides of the argument. If you're referring to DeKort, how?

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