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Old
07-06-2011, 01:05 PM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Um, what? What type of ridiculous trade is that?

Filatov went for a 3rd, or was it a 4th? He's younger, has more talent potential, and had a higher likelihood of returning to the Blue Jackets than Radulov has for returning to the Predators.
I find it far from ridiculous, must give to get... Comparing Filatov to Radulov is not really worthy of a comment. More like that is truly being ridiculous. Radulov has put up great numbers in the KHL (Player of the year, PPG...) + international play, Filatov is a shaky prospect. At best. Radulov is THE REAL DEAL. Top line potential PPG player. No way Filatov has more talent potential. None.

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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Radulov will also command more money from a team since he's a little more proven, which means that a team will have to not only be willing to trade a package but be willing to shell out serious money to convince him to return back to the NHL. He's not that attractive of a trade chip thus his trade value will be low - and for the Predators, they have no guarantee that he will ever return to them, so any trade package constructed really (unless one which a complete slap in the face) will likely be able to land him. Comparing Filatov to Radulov is not really worthy of a comment. Radulov has put up great numbers in the KHL + international play, Filatov is a shaky prospect. At best.
Of course he will command more money - he is far more developed and a better player. I doubt the Predators give him away for nothing. What I offered was fair value imo. Maybe revisit the situation Calgary was in when they gave up Erixon --- but Radulov is better and has faer more value. The ELC that would remain to pay is at 900.000 the first year, after that he could get 2 years at Wolskis range to prove himself.

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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
That being said, i can't see Radulov and Torts meshing. I can't see Radulov meshing period on this team and with the identity that the Rangers are trying to build.
Perhaps you are right here, but Torts likes talent. Everybody knowing and loving the sport of hockey does that. We need more top end talent on the team (we got one guy on board this offseason). Grinders and attitude only gets you so far (we are good here now btw), we need gamebreakers and sizzling dangler(s) to round out the elite combination necessary to contend.

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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
We need another winger. That is for sure. Legitimately, I see the Rangers being cup contenders next year. I think we'll have some stopgap winger on the first line (either Dubi, Wolski, or Fedotenko), then next year we'll likely be able to get a top line talent to go along w/ Richards and Gaborik. Parise would be amazing if we could sign him, he'd fit the mold we're trying to build, and we all know that there is an allure for playing the Rangers, especially for Devil players who are close enough to experience NY but don't have the prestige of being a Ranger or a passionate fan base that the Rangers do.

Another name that would definitely fit on the 1st line, on this team, and under this coach, is Bobby Ryan. Gritty, hard hitting, hard working, he'd be more than welcome on this team.
Parise and Bobby Ryan are great theoretical NHL 2011 alternatives - only problem is that they will be impossible to attain without hurting the team in far worse ways. They will need serious overpayment to snag. Radulov will not... So I stick with what is realistic in terms of being possible to build in this dimension & universe...

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Originally Posted by Miz View Post
HAH, you guys need to get off your Rudalov high horses. The way this team is being constructed, do you really think the team is going to move valuable pieces for someone who wants nothing to do with the NHL? Watch out for Wolski this year, i don't see him being here any longer than one year. But, going into a contract year, i can see him topping out at 60+ points. Keep him for this year.
High horses? He is a top end talent in any league imo. If we were to get him without giving up too much - just do it!!! IMO. Radulov never has said he wants nothing to do with the NHL. He even hinted he could go there this year here and be bought out of his KHL contract.
I agree that Wolski might break out as this is contract year and he will be playing for his life. Btw - not directed to you but all in general - Wolski is not European, he is Canadian. He is of Polish descent but raised through his entire hockey career in Canada. Just wanted to annihilate the "pansy, soft Euro with poor work-ethic" discuussion that keeps popping up here time & time again...

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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
These trades are ridiculous. Thank God none of you are GM's. We'd likely still have Mike Dunham as our goalie.
Thanks, it relieves me immensely to know that.

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07-06-2011, 01:39 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
I find it far from ridiculous, must give to get... Comparing Filatov to Radulov is not really worthy of a comment. More like that is truly being ridiculous. Radulov has put up great numbers in the KHL (Player of the year, PPG...) + international play, Filatov is a shaky prospect. At best. Radulov is THE REAL DEAL. Top line potential PPG player. No way Filatov has more talent potential. None.



Of course he will command more money - he is far more developed and a better player. I doubt the Predators give him away for nothing. What I offered was fair value imo. Maybe revisit the situation Calgary was in when they gave up Erixon --- but Radulov is better and has faer more value. The ELC that would remain to pay is at 900.000 the first year, after that he could get 2 years at Wolskis range to prove himself.



Perhaps you are right here, but Torts likes talent. Everybody knowing and loving the sport of hockey does that. We need more top end talent on the team (we got one guy on board this offseason). Grinders and attitude only gets you so far (we are good here now btw), we need gamebreakers and sizzling dangler(s) to round out the elite combination necessary to contend.



Parise and Bobby Ryan are great theoretical NHL 2011 alternatives - only problem is that they will be impossible to attain without hurting the team in far worse ways. They will need serious overpayment to snag. Radulov will not... So I stick with what is realistic in terms of being possible to build in this dimension & universe...



High horses? He is a top end talent in any league imo. If we were to get him without giving up too much - just do it!!! IMO. Radulov never has said he wants nothing to do with the NHL. He even hinted he could go there this year here and be bought out of his KHL contract.
I agree that Wolski might break out as this is contract year and he will be playing for his life. Btw - not directed to you but all in general - Wolski is not European, he is Canadian. He is of Polish descent but raised through his entire hockey career in Canada. Just wanted to annihilate the "pansy, soft Euro with poor work-ethic" discuussion that keeps popping up here time & time again...



Thanks, it relieves me immensely to know that.
That's great that Radulov is putting up numbers in the KHL. That doesn't really tell me a lot though since Marcel Hossa was at one point the leading goal scorer for that league and put up a 1 goal per game average.

What you offered was fair value? Del Zotto is an untouchable. I hope you remember this "fair value proposal" in a few years when he becomes a star and integral part on the Rangers defense. I wouldn't trade Del Zotto for Radulov straight up, let alone what else you included in that deal.

As for the ELC nonsense you are arguing about. He left Nashville because they didn't offer him the contract he wanted. As I said, whichever team gets him, if any team decides to trade for him, will have to entice and convince him to leave from his money nest in Russia to come play back in North America. 900k is hardly convincing there buddy. For someone who's talking about how realistic he's being... Understand the situation. He left because Nashville offered him market value. He got greedy, became a brat, and decided to go where he was being offered a lot more money. There is absolutely no scenario that I can see where he is willing to play for the ELC...

Torts likes talent, yes. Torts also hates talent which doesn't live up to its potential. He would rather have hard workers who are willing to sacrifice for the team. Radulov has only proven that he is a me-first player, and is notorious for taking off games, shifts, and not working to his potential. Torts would eat this guy alive, he'd be a healthy scratch for his tenure with the Rangers. Look at Zherdev, Antropov, Wolski, even Gaborik was dumped on by Torts on a consistent basis last year. You tell me Radulov would be any different and I won't be able to keep a straight face.

As for needing talent, yes we are in desperate need. I've been saying that for the last 3 years. But Radulov will not solve that problem since he'll likely become a locker room cancer and likely will hardly see any ice time because of our coach.

As for Parise he'll likely only cost money and contract years after this year to attain. We won't be able to trade for him, even if we wanted to, so we'll have to wait a year on him. As for Ryan, we'll have to sacrifice a little to get him but he's a top end talent that would directly fit on this team. It won't take a massive package to get him, he's not an absolute star, but it'd be more than most are willing to give on this board. As you said you have to be willing to give a little to get a little, and for this particular team he's worth giving up our prospects and draft picks more than Radulov is.

And you're right. As I said, Radulov will not need a large package to be attained. Thing is, you meant that the package you were giving up for him was not a lot at all. It is. Del Zotto is a huge piece to be giving. Not only that but you're also giving up a 1st, and Boyle (who is expendable but whose value only improved last year). Then you offer something like a 1st, a top FW prospect, and roster players for his rights? Come on man, what the hell are you thinking? A 1st alone would be overpayment. A top FW prospect... our depth is from our defensive prospect pool, we lack FW prospects... why in the world would we not deal from our strength but instead further put ourselves in a deeper hole prospect wise? That's just common sense. And then a roster player? This is just terrible.

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07-06-2011, 01:52 PM
  #328
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i don't know if he's been mentioned yet, but since this board seems to love talking about trades with edmonton what about linus omark? 22 assists in 51 games last year and the rangers could probably trade a 2nd rounder and a big prospect (maybe defensive..del zotto?) for a guy like him. with richards and gaborik, you would have two guys to set up gaborik, and omark could be the guy to set up richards for goals too.

also, what about avery? if he comes into camp in good shape and shows he can actually play at a high level he could do some damage. he's great passing from behind the net and grinds down defenses well to open up spots for richards and gaborik to take shots. avery had a down year last season but he also wasn't playing on lines with skill players, and he's shown that when he's with some skill players he can put up good numbers.

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07-06-2011, 02:35 PM
  #329
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Although he isn't going to give you the offensive numbers of Dubinsky or even Wolski, playing Fedotenko with Richards and Gaborik makes a lot of sense, imo. He's great defensively, and great on the forecheck, which is exactly what you need to help balance out Richards and Gaborik. It also allows you to balance the depth lines much better and keep in tact the chemistry of our second and third lines.

Fedotenko - Richards - Gaborik
Dubinsky - Anisimov - Callahan
Wolski - Stepan - Zuccarello
Rupp - Boyle - Prust
Avery

Quote:
Fedotenko played on a line with Richards with the Lightning and said, while it was completely up to Tortorella and the coaching staff, he would “love to play” with Richards and Marian Gaborik.
http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/r...ack_to_no._26/

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07-06-2011, 02:38 PM
  #330
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[QUOTE=azrok22;34733703]Although he isn't going to give you the offensive numbers of Dubinsky or even Wolski, playing Fedotenko with Richards and Gaborik makes a lot of sense, imo. He's great defensively, and great on the forecheck, which is exactly what you need to help balance out Richards and Gaborik. It also allows you to balance the depth lines much better and keep in tact the chemistry of our second and third lines.

Fedotenko - Richards - Gaborik
Dubinsky - Anisimov - Callahan
Wolski - Stepan - Zuccarello
Rupp - Boyle - Prust
Avery

This really may be our best option

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07-06-2011, 02:40 PM
  #331
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I'm sure Torts will try a bunch of guys on their wing, maybe all in one game.

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07-06-2011, 02:44 PM
  #332
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While I agree that Fedetenko may be our best option right now to play 1st line LW, i think a really intriguing fit is Zuccarello.

He's very methodical, very creative with the puck, has offensive ability, and would probably benefit the most (career wise) from playing on the same line with these 2.

Torts may want to try him out as our own version of St. Louis. God knows St. Louis wasn't as talented and dominant of a player before Torts got his hands on him, and playing on the same line as Richards and Lecavier did wonders for him.

We saw Zuccarello mesh very well with Stepan and Wolski - 2 players who are poorer versions of Gaborik and Richards respectively. I think he can mesh even better with BRich and Gabby and improve leaps and bounds throughout the course of the season.

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07-06-2011, 03:29 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Although he isn't going to give you the offensive numbers of Dubinsky or even Wolski, playing Fedotenko with Richards and Gaborik makes a lot of sense, imo. He's great defensively, and great on the forecheck, which is exactly what you need to help balance out Richards and Gaborik. It also allows you to balance the depth lines much better and keep in tact the chemistry of our second and third lines.

Fedotenko - Richards - Gaborik
Dubinsky - Anisimov - Callahan
Wolski - Stepan - Zuccarello
Rupp - Boyle - Prust
Avery



http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/r...ack_to_no._26/
I actually like that lineup a lot.

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07-06-2011, 03:49 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I'm sure Torts will try a bunch of guys on their wing, maybe all in one game.
Expect to see everyone and their mother on the top line LW spot during pre-season.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he threw Marty Biron out there.

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07-06-2011, 03:59 PM
  #335
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Zuccarello is a huge question mark.

He wasn't strong enough, and he wasn't a good enough skater to hold onto a regular shift last season.

No indication that he did anything to rectify either issue so far this summer.

Hagelin is bigger, stronger, faster, and a better two way player.

Hagelin has a better shot at earning a spot then Zuccarello at this point.

Fedotenko. Richards. Gaborik
Dubinsky. Anisimov. Callahan
Hagelin. Stepan. Wolski
Rupp/Avery. Boyle. Prust

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07-06-2011, 04:07 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Zuccarello is a huge question mark.

He wasn't strong enough, and he wasn't a good enough skater to hold onto a regular shift last season.

No indication that he did anything to rectify either issue so far this summer.

Hagelin is bigger, stronger, faster, and a better two way player.

Hagelin has a better shot at earning a spot then Zuccarello at this point.

Fedotenko. Richards. Gaborik
Dubinsky. Anisimov. Callahan
Hagelin. Stepan. Wolski
Rupp/Avery. Boyle. Prust
I could not disagree more. I think you're focusing way too much on how he finished the season -- a season that is longer that he was used to playing in the SEL. On the whole, he put up 23 points in 42 games (45 point pace), which is very solid for a rookie. Plus, he was absolute money in the shootout. He certainly was no worse than Wolski (42 point pace). Neither is going to win a Selke, but there's no doubt that Zuccarello competes a lot harder.

Writing Zuccarello off is beyond foolish, imo, and while Hagelin may prove to be a successful NHLer, he has not proven anywhere near what Zuccarello has at this point.

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07-06-2011, 04:12 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Zuccarello is a huge question mark.

He wasn't strong enough, and he wasn't a good enough skater to hold onto a regular shift last season.

No indication that he did anything to rectify either issue so far this summer.

Hagelin is bigger, stronger, faster, and a better two way player.

Hagelin has a better shot at earning a spot then Zuccarello at this point.

Fedotenko. Richards. Gaborik
Dubinsky. Anisimov. Callahan
Hagelin. Stepan. Wolski
Rupp/Avery. Boyle. Prust
Working with Barb Underhill isn't an indication he's trying to improve his skating?

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07-06-2011, 04:13 PM
  #338
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Zuccarello is a huge question mark.

He wasn't strong enough, and he wasn't a good enough skater to hold onto a regular shift last season.

No indication that he did anything to rectify either issue so far this summer
No? Like going back to NY and training the whole summer, plus getting a powerskate instructor for example?

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07-06-2011, 04:22 PM
  #339
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Working with Barb Underhill isn't an indication he's trying to improve his skating?
Where was it indicated that he was doing this?

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07-06-2011, 04:23 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
While I agree that Fedetenko may be our best option right now to play 1st line LW, i think a really intriguing fit is Zuccarello.

He's very methodical, very creative with the puck, has offensive ability, and would probably benefit the most (career wise) from playing on the same line with these 2.

Torts may want to try him out as our own version of St. Louis. God knows St. Louis wasn't as talented and dominant of a player before Torts got his hands on him, and playing on the same line as Richards and Lecavier did wonders for him.

We saw Zuccarello mesh very well with Stepan and Wolski - 2 players who are poorer versions of Gaborik and Richards respectively. I think he can mesh even better with BRich and Gabby and improve leaps and bounds throughout the course of the season.
MZA is too small...but maybe on PP #1

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07-06-2011, 04:23 PM
  #341
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No? Like going back to NY and training the whole summer, plus getting a powerskate instructor for example?
Again, where is it confirmed he did this?

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07-06-2011, 04:25 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Where was it indicated that he was doing this?


Somewhere, Zuccarello is walking down the street with a swagger, whispering "Haters gonna hate."


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07-06-2011, 04:27 PM
  #343
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Zucc, Boyle, Underhill

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07-06-2011, 04:27 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
While I agree that Fedetenko may be our best option right now to play 1st line LW, i think a really intriguing fit is Zuccarello.

He's very methodical, very creative with the puck, has offensive ability, and would probably benefit the most (career wise) from playing on the same line with these 2.

Torts may want to try him out as our own version of St. Louis. God knows St. Louis wasn't as talented and dominant of a player before Torts got his hands on him, and playing on the same line as Richards and Lecavier did wonders for him.

We saw Zuccarello mesh very well with Stepan and Wolski - 2 players who are poorer versions of Gaborik and Richards respectively. I think he can mesh even better with BRich and Gabby and improve leaps and bounds throughout the course of the season.
St. Louis is an elite level skater and in elite level physical shape.

Zuccarello is nowhere near that.

He was extremely small, not strong, and not fast.

If he drastically improves those areas he could make it.

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07-06-2011, 04:28 PM
  #345
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i've seen that picture before and though it was boyle with two little kids....had no idea that was MZA

and stepan should really be there too...that kids skating needs some work if he's going to take it to the next level

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07-06-2011, 04:32 PM
  #346
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Corey Stillman? 1yr deal?

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07-06-2011, 04:32 PM
  #347
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Somewhere, Zuccarello is walking down the street with a swagger, whispering "Haters gonna hate."

Uh huh.

Im not a hater. Im looking at it realistically. He was not a good skater by NHL standards, and was weak. Ontop of being one of the smallest players in the league.

He has above average hands and vision and good IQ.

Its great to see that he's working on his skating and strength.

Ill be rooting for him. We could use the offensive creativity.

But to say he doesn't have big obstacles to conquer would be just as foolish as writing him off.

And Hagelin does NOT have these same obstacles to overcome. He's in great shape, he's a gym rat, he's fast, has an incredible high level of endurance.

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07-06-2011, 04:40 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
St. Louis is an elite level skater and in elite level physical shape.

Zuccarello is nowhere near that.

He was extremely small, not strong, and not fast.

If he drastically improves those areas he could make it.
see, i sorta agree and i sorta disagree with you.

I think the thing is, MZA is extremely skilled, and is a very hard worker. he tries his hardest shift in and shift out. hes also extremely shifty out there and sees the game outstandingly. however his game doenst really seem to fit the Rangers philosophy of hockey. we're more of a grind it out kinda team. play the corners, play the walls, get in deep on the forecheck. these attributes dont fit his game, which is why he looks so overwhelmed physically. very talented kid. if he could get faster, his lack of strength wouldnt matter as much. good to see hes been trying at least.

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07-06-2011, 04:52 PM
  #349
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Uh huh.

Im not a hater. Im looking at it realistically. He was not a good skater by NHL standards.
Actually, he is not a bad skater by NHL standards either. Have a look at his back checking and with the speed he gets back there. Very often he is the first forward back, mostly due to his pretty decent speed.

His big issue has been skating with the puck. A big part of hockey for a creative winger, off course, but keep in mind he has had to get used to skating with a shorter stick. This has affected his speed to some degree. Having had time to adapt and with the instructions of Barb Underhill, he should have no trouble with speed.

I'm not saying he should be at the top LW, though. If he does well in camp, he cold be looking at the third line RW and one of the pp units. He was one of our most effective players on the pp last year, and had one of the best production values. Also, even if he is a small player, he was present in the physichal play and recorded a respectable number of hits.

He put up 23 points in 42 games. That puts him on pace to 46 points in his rookie season, his first season on smaller ice surfaces. Not great, but more than acceptable for a third line winger. Let's see how he does in camp. He has obstacles, but he might overcome them.

As for the LW: If prospal isn't brought back, I'd like to see Feds or Aves on the top LW.

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07-06-2011, 04:57 PM
  #350
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see, i sorta agree and i sorta disagree with you.

I think the thing is, MZA is extremely skilled, and is a very hard worker. he tries his hardest shift in and shift out. hes also extremely shifty out there and sees the game outstandingly. however his game doenst really seem to fit the Rangers philosophy of hockey. we're more of a grind it out kinda team. play the corners, play the walls, get in deep on the forecheck. these attributes dont fit his game, which is why he looks so overwhelmed physically. very talented kid. if he could get faster, his lack of strength wouldnt matter as much. good to see hes been trying at least.
He tries hard, but just like skill isn't everything, effort isn't everything either.

You need to be able to keep up physically.

With guys like Kreider, Miller, Hagelin, Yogan... coming up behind Zuccarello, what is Zuccarello offering that these guys can't?

Putting up 40 points MAYBE, is not going to cut it. When he isn't providing much else. Can't be used on the PK.

Kreider, Miller, and Hagelin are on another level physically. Kreider has elite speed, far above average shot, and is a pure athlete. Strong, tough. Miller is already a legitimate two way player that is also a gym rat like Kreider and Hagelin. He's big, physical, and has pro level playmaking skills and vision. Hagelin is fast, has a high endurance level. All of them can play a variety of roles and can play in any situation.

Zuccarello is strictly an offensive player. And a shootout specialist. If he isn't really racking up points and a scoring threat every shift, then what is his realistic NHL shelf life? Not long.

St. Louis is where he is because he has elite vision, speed, hands, shot, physical strength. Zuccarello is nowhere near that.

We have seen lots of small guys with skill come and go. What separates Zuccarello from the pack?

I hope im wrong, I just don't see him lasting in the NHL, at least not with the Rangers, not with guys like Kreider, Miller, Hagelin, and Yogan nipping at his heals.

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