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Old
07-06-2011, 05:30 PM
  #351
bobbop
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I don't normally like to pick apart articles but this one demands a few specific replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
As for the ELC nonsense you are arguing about. He left Nashville because they didn't offer him the contract he wanted. As I said, whichever team gets him, if any team decides to trade for him, will have to entice and convince him to leave from his money nest in Russia to come play back in North America. 900k is hardly convincing there buddy. For someone who's talking about how realistic he's being... Understand the situation. He left because Nashville offered him market value. He got greedy, became a brat, and decided to go where he was being offered a lot more money. There is absolutely no scenario that I can see where he is willing to play for the ELC...
When you are on an ELC, you cannot sign a new contract until January 1 of the expiration year. So your point is moot -- Nashville couldn't have made him an offer until he was halfway through the last year of his ELC. It wasn't a matter of what he was or wasn't offered. There was no offer.

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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
As I said, Radulov will not need a large package to be attained. Thing is, you meant that the package you were giving up for him was not a lot at all. It is. Del Zotto is a huge piece to be giving. Not only that but you're also giving up a 1st, and Boyle (who is expendable but whose value only improved last year). Then you offer something like a 1st, a top FW prospect, and roster players for his rights? Come on man, what the hell are you thinking? A 1st alone would be overpayment. A top FW prospect... our depth is from our defensive prospect pool, we lack FW prospects... why in the world would we not deal from our strength but instead further put ourselves in a deeper hole prospect wise? That's just common sense. And then a roster player? This is just terrible.
No it's not. Radulov scored 26 goals and 58 points in the NHL as a 21 year old on an offensively challenged team. He is a terrific talent. He is not Zherdev. If he was ever traded, it would be at a premium cost. Nashville doesn't need defensemen. It would cost a premium prospect and a high draft pick in some combination. And it would be worth every cent.

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07-06-2011, 05:47 PM
  #352
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Exactly. People forget that Radulov put up 60 points in his second NHL season. If one of our prospects did that we'd be calling him the messiah.

It really is a shame he went to Russia. He's a tremendous talent and I would love to have him on the team. Don't know if he's still a primadonna kind of guy though and if he would click in the locker room.

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07-06-2011, 05:49 PM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
He tries hard, but just like skill isn't everything, effort isn't everything either.

You need to be able to keep up physically.

With guys like Kreider, Miller, Hagelin, Yogan... coming up behind Zuccarello, what is Zuccarello offering that these guys can't?

Putting up 40 points MAYBE, is not going to cut it. When he isn't providing much else. Can't be used on the PK.

Kreider, Miller, and Hagelin are on another level physically. Kreider has elite speed, far above average shot, and is a pure athlete. Strong, tough. Miller is already a legitimate two way player that is also a gym rat like Kreider and Hagelin. He's big, physical, and has pro level playmaking skills and vision. Hagelin is fast, has a high endurance level. All of them can play a variety of roles and can play in any situation.

Zuccarello is strictly an offensive player. And a shootout specialist. If he isn't really racking up points and a scoring threat every shift, then what is his realistic NHL shelf life? Not long.

St. Louis is where he is because he has elite vision, speed, hands, shot, physical strength. Zuccarello is nowhere near that.

We have seen lots of small guys with skill come and go. What separates Zuccarello from the pack?

I hope im wrong, I just don't see him lasting in the NHL, at least not with the Rangers, not with guys like Kreider, Miller, Hagelin, and Yogan nipping at his heals.
My big problem with Zucc last season was not his effort and skating, it was his poor defensive zone play at times and his offensive inconsistency. I can live with him making mistakes in the defensive zone as he is young, but how many times did we see him skate all the way back to break up a play that would then lead to a turnover and the opposing team still found a way to score. I will never question his effort and determination, but his body was not ready for the NHL last season and he has to work on where to be when he does not have the puck in the defensive zone and what to do with the puck when he gets it in the defensive zone. He was snake bitten at times offensively which was hard to watch.

The big problem i see with Wolski-Stepan-Zuccarello is that line is consistently inconsistent. Both wingers in Wolski and Zucc are capable of creating chances off the rush, cycling the puck leading to a chance, and scoring nifty goals. However, they can both disappear at times for stretches of a game or games and neither is very solid defensively. Wolski has proven more at the NHL level and has a bigger frame, I prefer he is not paired withe Stepan and Zucc, I want him with Richards and Gabby to get lost in the fray and bury some garbage goals home while opponents are worrying and chasing Richards and Gabby. Wolski-Richards-Gaborik should be defended by teams top defensive line and top defensive pair on a nightly basis, so I am not as worried about them defensively as I am a 3rd line of Wolski-Stepan-Zuccarello. If teams decided to match top line vs top line when we are on the road than Wolski may come off that line for a player like Fedotenko who is more defensively responsible, but lets get there first.

Zuccarello can benefit from starting in Hartford, we currently have 14 forwards on the roster and I'd Rather EC be a healthy scratch and let Zucc work on his overall game in Hartford until he is needed.

Wolski-Richards-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Avery-Stepan-Fedotenko
Rupp-Boyle-Prust

sc: Christensen

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07-06-2011, 07:21 PM
  #354
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issue isn't if radulov would be a good pickup...its would he come back and if so why would nashville move him/what would they want

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07-06-2011, 07:29 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
issue isn't if radulov would be a good pickup...its would he come back and if so why would nashville move him/what would they want
Well I think the thought is that he might consider coming back if he could play in NYC, but wouldn't come back to continue playing in Nashville. That being said, I think it's an altogether unrealistic scenario. Just doesn't seem all that likely to happen.

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07-06-2011, 08:30 PM
  #356
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i would do pretty much anything to get radulov here. hes a major league talent.

not a zuke fan at all. hes a creative little player for sure but hes too slow and when you are really small and not fast, too much to over come.

i do not want ftank any where near gaby and br19. hes a nice player and all, but hes not the right fit there.

its gonna be dubinsky or w2 by default im afraid. not the worst thing in the world as both those guys have upside. w2 could be filthy with them- hes certainly got teh skating and stick play to hang with them.. dubi could be the grit and power to make that line really go.

i rally think those 2 are gonna tear it up, so im thinking whom ever is lucky enough to play with them is gonna have a nice ride.

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07-06-2011, 08:47 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
Well I think the thought is that he might consider coming back if he could play in NYC, but wouldn't come back to continue playing in Nashville. That being said, I think it's an altogether unrealistic scenario. Just doesn't seem all that likely to happen.
nashville fans seem to be holding onto hope that he'll return to them when his contract is up in the khl after next year...of course then he'll resign during the lockout and stay there lol

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07-06-2011, 08:49 PM
  #358
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Need someone with grit, net presence, and can grind the corners for the puck and control it on the boards to play with Richards and Gaborik.

Neither Wolski or Zuccarello can do that.

Gotta be Dubinsky.

If not Dubinsky then Fedotenko.

Can not have an inconsistent, non-physical player on that line.

Radulov would be an awful move. He would cost too much and he's too much of a risk. He wouldn't help this season anyway, he's still obligated to his KHL club for another season. And by then Kreider AND Miller could be ready to step in.

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07-06-2011, 08:53 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Need someone with grit, net presence, and can grind the corners for the puck and control it on the boards to play with Richards and Gaborik.

Neither Wolski or Zuccarello can do that.

Gotta be Dubinsky.

If not Dubinsky then Fedotenko.

Can not have an inconsistent, non-physical player on that line.

Radulov would be an awful move. He would cost too much and he's too much of a risk. He wouldn't help this season anyway, he's still obligated to his KHL club for another season. And by then Kreider AND Miller could be ready to step in.

Kreider and Miller might not even ever be able to do what Radulov did in his SECOND NHL season as a 22(?) year old.

It would be a fantastic move if you don't gut the system and mess up the team as it is assembled right now.

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07-06-2011, 08:54 PM
  #360
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Brian Boyle as the #1 LW? I think he could put up 45-50 points on that line while adding a defensive presence, size, board play and hitting.

Boyle-Richards-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Wolski-Stepan-Prust
Rupp-_______-Fedotenko
Avery, Christensen

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07-06-2011, 08:58 PM
  #361
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Imagine a line that would have been

Rw- Gaborik
C- Richards
LW- cheraponav

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07-06-2011, 09:03 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by YoungD4 View Post
Imagine a line that would have been

Rw- Gaborik
C- Richards
LW- cheraponav
Cherry was a RWer but I get your point. That kid was a SPECIAL talent, and by all accounts, a great kid.

Far too young..........

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07-06-2011, 09:06 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Kreider and Miller might not even ever be able to do what Radulov did in his SECOND NHL season as a 22(?) year old.

It would be a fantastic move if you don't gut the system and mess up the team as it is assembled right now.
I don't care what Radulov did in the NHL. He's not in the NHL. He can't be next season. And nobody knows if he will be after that. I do not care how talented his is. He is never going to be a great PLAYER, and he has serious questionmarks that are one million percent warranted.

Kreider and Miller will be better hockey PLAYERS and guaranteed NHLers with ZERO risk of KHL or anything else associated with that nonsense.

I would give a 7th rounder in 2013 MAX for this guy.

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07-06-2011, 09:09 PM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I don't care what Radulov did in the NHL. He's not in the NHL. He can't be next season. And nobody knows if he will be after that. I do not care how talented his is. He is never going to be a great PLAYER, and he has serious questionmarks that are one million percent warranted.

Kreider and Miller will be better hockey PLAYERS and guaranteed NHLers with ZERO risk of KHL or anything else associated with that nonsense.

I would give a 7th rounder in 2013 MAX for this guy.
I understand not wanting Radulov, that's a completely understandable point of view.

But that statement is wayyyy too untrue, IMO. Let's say Kreider and Miller both become bottom 6 players. Sure, they'll play solid defensively. But I take the guy who puts up 60 points in his second NHL season over a 25-30 point average PKer every day of the week.

Is Blair Betts a better hockey player than Patrick Kane?

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07-06-2011, 09:21 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I understand not wanting Radulov, that's a completely understandable point of view.

But that statement is wayyyy too untrue, IMO. Let's say Kreider and Miller both become bottom 6 players. Sure, they'll play solid defensively. But I take the guy who puts up 60 points in his second NHL season over a 25-30 point average PKer every day of the week.

Is Blair Betts a better hockey player than Patrick Kane?
Listen. Guys who care and play hard, and bring level of grit to their game DOES NOT make them "bottom six Betts". The agenda is clearly noted. And its wrong.

Thinking they'll only put up 25-30 points is laughable.

Luckily, the guys getting paid to make these decisions disagree with you.

Kreider and Miller ARE top six talents.

Want to save this post? Go ahead. They WILL fill top six roles with the Rangers.

Radulov deserves nothing, I don't care for guys who ditch their teams.

First time he loafs and Tortorella benches him, he can go crying back to Russia. No thanks.

And before we spew some bull crap about xenophobia, Cherepanov was my favorite player at that time and I watched EVERY single one of his games after he was drafted.

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07-06-2011, 09:25 PM
  #366
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Luckily I don't even have to fret about Radulov.

The Rangers brass have their heads on straight and are building a team of guys who WANT to be here, and guys who are good character guys.

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07-06-2011, 09:29 PM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Listen. Guys who care and play hard, and bring level of grit to their game DOES NOT make them "bottom six Betts". The agenda is clearly noted. And its wrong.

Thinking they'll only put up 25-30 points is laughable.

Luckily, the guys getting paid to make these decisions disagree with you.

Kreider and Miller ARE top six talents.

Want to save this post? Go ahead. They WILL fill top six roles with the Rangers.

Radulov deserves nothing, I don't care for guys who ditch their teams.

First time he loafs and Tortorella benches him, he can go crying back to Russia. No thanks.

And before we spew some bull crap about xenophobia, Cherepanov was my favorite player and I watched EVERY single one of his games after he was drafted.
What agenda? I love Chris Kreider and want him to become a first line 80 point talent. He sure as hell has the tools.

But this is a kid who's struggled to put up points in college. Now I know you're going to bring up because he's been working on his defensive game and he's not been given the ample opportunity by his coach to prove himself. However, that contradicts reports from people who've watched BC extensively who say that he was being given 1st pairing PP duties, at least at some point during the year. We've seen flashes of Kreider's upside and it's beautiful, but right now you're comparing a 60 point talent in the NHL to a kid who has twice now refused to join the pros when his organization asks him to.

They do have top 6 potential. but Radulov already proved he's top 6 player at the NHL level. If he does come back to the NHL i'd put the money on him being the better offensive player.

Thinking Kreider's guaranteed to be a 60+ point talent is just as ridiculous as thinking he won't be. I want him to succeed and I have nothing but adoration for the kid. But to think he can score 60 points in the NHL meanwhile he's floundering in college is a jump i'm not willing to risk the future of this team on. If he booms, we're set on the top line LW for years. If he busts, we're ****ed.

Claiming you know the future doesn't mean you do, as much as I wish it did. Otherwise Hugh Jessiman would be better than Zack Parise right now .

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07-06-2011, 09:32 PM
  #368
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Wanting to be here isn't worth anything when you're not a player the organization deems worthy, otherwise Bobby Sanguinetti would have been a Ranger for his whole life. Like I said, I understand not wanting Radulov. KHL factor, locker room questions, etc. But to say he's not better than Kreider and Miller right now is something I can't agree with.

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07-06-2011, 09:35 PM
  #369
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Ok so let's say we put dubi with the big boys - should we be focusing on someone to put on the line with AA and Callahan? Someone maybe less prominent?

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07-06-2011, 09:36 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
Ok so let's say we put dubi with the big boys - should we be focusing on someone to put on the line with AA and Callahan? Someone maybe less prominent?
Thats what I think we should do. Trade for a 1st line/2nd line tweener or very good second liner, that way we don't have to part with too much.

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07-06-2011, 09:40 PM
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Listen. Guys who care and play hard, and bring level of grit to their game DOES NOT make them "bottom six Betts". The agenda is clearly noted. And its wrong.

Thinking they'll only put up 25-30 points is laughable.

Luckily, the guys getting paid to make these decisions disagree with you.

Kreider and Miller ARE top six talents.

Want to save this post? Go ahead. They WILL fill top six roles with the Rangers.

Radulov deserves nothing, I don't care for guys who ditch their teams.

First time he loafs and Tortorella benches him, he can go crying back to Russia. No thanks.

And before we spew some bull crap about xenophobia, Cherepanov was my favorite player at that time and I watched EVERY single one of his games after he was drafted.
Thinking they'll put up more than 25-30 points is just as laughable they aren't in the NHl yet. Radulov has proven himself against the toughest competition out there.

Whatever your opinion is on the matter you can't ignore the facts.

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07-06-2011, 09:48 PM
  #372
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Fair enough, Blitz.

Still, no matter how talented he is, guys like Radulov, Heatley, and Schremp are not the kind of people id waste my time and resources on.

Radulov may have been a young kid and didn't know better. He's still a liability for any NHL team that gives him a second chance. A liability not worth sacrificing any assets for.

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07-06-2011, 09:49 PM
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prustqvist24 View Post
What do you mean, young and fully of potential? He is already BETTER than Dubinsky.

Dubinsky's best season: 24 goals, 54 points in 77 games @24-25 years old.
Benn's best season: 22 goals, 56 points in 69 games @20 years old.

If you're confident Joey would bite it's because you have no clue about Benn and just like to sound informed. Why on earth would any GM trade a guy who is already outperforming the best player in the package you're offering while 4 years younger and on an entry level contract? Dubinsky is close to as good as he's going to get. Benn has already proven he is 60+ point player and at 20 years old, he's likely to develop into a 75+ one. You're just wrong, sorry.

I mean, it honestly sounds like you're just not being truthful about having seen Benn play. He doesn't stand up for his teammates? He probably fought more than Dubinsky last season and definitely stands up for himself and his teammates. Very simply, he is already 100% better than Dubinsky, not in terms of potential, but in terms of what he is already producing 4 years younger.

Is that how you judge players? Based on their best season. Here is one for you
Wolski's best season: 23 Goals, 42 Assists, 65 points as a 23 year old, does that make him better than Dubinski or Benn?
Quote:
If you're confident Joey would bite it's because you have no clue about Benn
You obviously have a short attention span. I said, Joey would bite for Dubi + MDZ.
Quote:
and just like to sound informed
Sound informed, or express an opinion?
Code:
o·pin·ion (-pnyn)
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
Seriously, how are old are you?
I have no freaking idea what Joey would do and neither do you.

Quote:
What do you mean, young and fully of potential?
Quote:
he's likely to develop into a 75+ one. You're just wrong, sorry.
You just described his potential. You are making my point and contradicting yourself.
Quote:
I mean, it honestly sounds like you're just not being truthful about having seen Benn play.
Here is what I think, I don't think YOU have seen Jamie play. You are judging him based on stats and youtube videos.
I don't give a crap what you think it sounds like.

Jamie is a talented young player, but he is not on par with Dubi right now.
Let's see some consistency before we trade our alternate captain for him.
This ain't a video game.

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07-06-2011, 09:52 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
Thinking they'll put up more than 25-30 points is just as laughable they aren't in the NHl yet. Radulov has proven himself against the toughest competition out there.

Whatever your opinion is on the matter you can't ignore the facts.
The only fact that needs to be known is he ditched his team while under contract.

He wasn't a UFA or an RFA. He was signed, being relied on and he abandoned his team, his scouts, his trainers, everyone in the Predators organization that wasted their time on him.

And he's still under contract in the KHL.

Those are the only facts anyone needs to know.

What ever stats he recorded don't matter.

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07-06-2011, 09:55 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Here is what I think, I don't think YOU have seen Jamie play. You are judging him based on stats and youtube videos.
He never said he was.

He put those YT videos to show the "stands up for his teammates" mantra applies to both players.

Not that it matters, because that doesn't make Dubinsky a better player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Jamie is a talented young player, but he is not on par with Dubi right now.
He outscored him last season, playing less games, while being better defensively. He had a better year last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Let's see some consistency before we trade our alternate captain for him.
Consistency?

Dubinsky isn't consistent. At all. So I don't understand how you can say Benn isn't consistent, but say Dubinsky is. It's quite the opposite.

And assistant captain? Dubinsky isn't the assistant captain.

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