HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Glen Sather

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-04-2011, 08:31 AM
  #126
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Started researching and 2 seasons ago, Richards was minus 12, the third worst on the team. To put it in perspective, another player on the team was plus 27.

In 07-08, Richards was second worst on TB.

In 06-07, Richards was second worst on TB.

In 01-02, Richards was second worst on TB.

In all his other seasons, he was never better than the median of the team. These stats point to his plus/minus being a real indicator of terrible defensive play and cannot be swept away as a statistical aberration.
This is what Inferno was talking about the stat has no context...I'll use 07-08 as an example. 07-08 TBL tied with LAK for worst record in the ENTIRE NHL...71 points each. It would be expected that a team with the WORST record in the league would have minus players...In fact only 3 players on the entire 07-08 were PLUS and one player was EVEN.

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 08:36 AM
  #127
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
You don't really get good offensive players who are also very good defensively. All the top teams in the league have players who are good offensively and usually only OK at best on defense.

Is it somewhat of a concern? Perhaps. But what exactly do you want his team to do instead of taking a shot at a guy like Richards? Say "oh this offensive player is not good on defense better not do it just gonna stay the course and play with only one legit 1st line player and magically hope the team gets better"?

This is the whole issue with getting Richards...without him, the Rangers just aren't gonna get a shot at being a cup contending team without tearing everything down again and restarting (trading players for a surefire centerman, or tearing down to rebuild with high draft picks). The odds of magically finding one in the later rounds of the draft aren't that great. So...you take a bit of a risk to get a decent shot at contending for the cup soon, or you sit there with your thumb up your ass and waste the best years of the guys you have developed at this point

As for his concussion, if he's healed up he should be just fine. The biggest problem is if he didn't give the concussion time to heal. He hasn't missed many games at all in his career so I'm hesitant to call him the most injury prone. Odds are good that Callahan is out for significantly longer than Richards in any given year
I agree that a lot of scorers are not great defenders. However, on paper at least, Richards is terrible.

I also understand that if Richards helps the power play enough, it is a tradeoff worth gambling on.

I hated the signing of Gaborik and still do. He has shown that even at his best he does not elevate his team. At that salary you should.

If we did not already have Gabs, I would be fine with signing Richards. But those two at their salaries and years is bad gambling to me. Hopefully I am wrong.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 08:39 AM
  #128
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
This is what Inferno was talking about the stat has no context...I'll use 07-08 as an example. 07-08 TBL tied with LAK for worst record in the ENTIRE NHL...71 points each. It would be expected that a team with the WORST record in the league would have minus players...In fact only 3 players on the entire 07-08 were PLUS and one player was EVEN.
The stats I posted were not absolute numbers. They are relevant to his teammates.

Over many seasons when compared with your teammates, plus/minus is a valid indicator.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 08:40 AM
  #129
Fitzy
All Is Well
 
Fitzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,917
vCash: 50
If Richards gets injured, what of it really? We weren't going to use that cap space on anyone else anyways, and we just return to the club we would've been if Richards had signed elsewhere.

Plus we didn't sign Connolly, which is great.

__________________
"I have something better than proof: I have anecdotal evidence."
Fitzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 08:54 AM
  #130
GAGLine
Registered User
 
GAGLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,112
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
First, that is a much smaller sample size.

Second, you are pointing to one season to try and refute a theory that another player's entire career has shown poor numbers.
I pointed to 2 seasons out of 5 where Callahan's plus/minus was the worst/3rd worst on the team. You pointed to 3 seasons out of 11 where Richards' plus/minus was 2nd worst on his team. Percentage-wise, Callahan has had more bad seasons than Richards, yet we all know Cally is a good defensive player. So how do you explain the numbers?

Either way, if Richards was that bad defensively, I'd have to imagine that would have been an issue between he and Torts.


Last edited by GAGLine: 07-04-2011 at 09:00 AM.
GAGLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 08:57 AM
  #131
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The stats I posted were not absolute numbers. They are relevant to his teammates.

Over many seasons when compared with your teammates, plus/minus is a valid indicator.
We can agree to disagree...but given the short bench that Torts played in TBL the numbers don't surprise me.

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:19 AM
  #132
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I pointed to 2 seasons out of 5 where Callahan's plus/minus was the worst/3rd worst on the team. You pointed to 3 seasons out of 11 where Richards' plus/minus was 2nd worst on his team. Percentage-wise, Callahan has had more bad seasons than Richards, yet we all know Cally is a good defensive player. So how do you explain the numbers?

Either way, if Richards was that bad defensively, I'd have to imagine that would have been an issue between he and Torts.
No, I pointed out that in Richards' entire career he has never been an average plus/minus player on his team. His average standing among his teammates would be around 2/3 of his teammates being better than him in any given season.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:20 AM
  #133
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
If Richards gets injured, what of it really? We weren't going to use that cap space on anyone else anyways.
Bullocks me man, almost every year players no one thought would be moved become available.

Its a fallacy to say that Brad Richards is our only hope and that no star players are ever available.

'Its only money' Also not true. It takes time, resources and creates a culture, you're selling the impact short.

Bluenote13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:24 AM
  #134
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
We can agree to disagree...but given the short bench that Torts played in TBL the numbers don't surprise me.
I'm also hopeful that surrounded by a very good set of dmen and a great goalie, the anticipated tradeoff will not be a big deal. We'll see.

My central point remains that people praising Sather are ignoring results and basing it on what they anticipate will happen. He could not have done a worse job, to date, and on any other team he would have been gone 7 or 8 years ago.

The same man who pays him is still trying to figure out a way to make Isaih Thomas a principal man of the Knicks.

Sather has been a league-wide joke for over a decade.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:28 AM
  #135
Cake or Death
.
 
Cake or Death's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 2,081
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
No, I pointed out that in Richards' entire career he has never been an average plus/minus player on his team. His average standing among his teammates would be around 2/3 of his teammates being better than him in any given season.
He was +1 last season at even strength and potted like 30 pts on the PP. This is seriously a problem?

Cake or Death is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:43 AM
  #136
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Bullocks me man, almost every year players no one thought would be moved become available.

Its a fallacy to say that Brad Richards is our only hope and that no star players are ever available.

'Its only money' Also not true. It takes time, resources and creates a culture, you're selling the impact short.
Richards was the best option of a very weak group, so Sather did what he always does: Sign the biggest name he can and hope.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:44 AM
  #137
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laces out Dan View Post
He was +1 last season at even strength and potted like 30 pts on the PP. This is seriously a problem?
Hopefully not, but we'll see.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 09:52 AM
  #138
Levitate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,442
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Richards was the best option of a very weak group, so Sather did what he always does: Sign the biggest name he can and hope.
Well, Richards also is the general type of player the Rangers actually needed, barring a legitimate "carry the team on your back superstar" that doesn't come around in free agency all that often.

A playmaking center was a pretty big need and Richards fills that well besides just being the best FA available.

edit: and what I mean is this wasn't exactly a "we need a center, let's just grab the best one available" like they did with Gomez and Drury. They were really looking for a specific type of center and Richards fills that role.

Levitate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 10:24 AM
  #139
Lion Hound
@JoeTucc26
 
Lion Hound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 3,701
vCash: 500
I remain one of Glens only fans here. I will freely admit that the checkbook has gotten out of hand. There has been alot of talk here and in and around the garden that he would gut the house strip the team bare of its assets just to add a player. I don't think that the case at all. I am comfortable with him as a GM.

This year Sather has built himself a very good hand. An excellent hand. But he has alot of work to do still. Of course the RFA's I think need to hold precedence. Once that is done and training camp is over I think Sather is in a positon of power here.

He's got himself a 2 superstar team, with one of the best in the business in net. He's got himself an excellent, and very young supporting cast. A great mix of physical and talented forwards in the bottom six, and a solid core in the top 6. The D is strong too. Plus both offense and defense has rookies chomping the bit to get on the big squad. There are positions open and will probably be some new faces this year.

For Sather, he now has a more appealing team to add the X-factor. The player that can put them over the top. He also has the assets to get this done. The question is...Who will that be? Iginla at the deadline? Maybe a Ryan Clowe? Or go the other route and swing for the fences... look to add youth. Evander Kane, Jaime Benn type of player? Having Brad Richards here to me just makes the NY Rangers a far more appealing place to come. And players certainly have influence on other players decisions on where they would like to be.

Two things left to do.

1) Make sure Tortorella and staff gets the most out of what Sather has put together.
2) Add the X-factor that gets this team out of the Eastern Conference.

Lion Hound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 11:11 AM
  #140
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I'm also hopeful that surrounded by a very good set of dmen and a great goalie, the anticipated tradeoff will not be a big deal. We'll see.

My central point remains that people praising Sather are ignoring results and basing it on what they anticipate will happen. He could not have done a worse job, to date, and on any other team he would have been gone 7 or 8 years ago.

The same man who pays him is still trying to figure out a way to make Isaih Thomas a principal man of the Knicks.

Sather has been a league-wide joke for over a decade.
We are in almost full agreement on this post

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 11:15 AM
  #141
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,214
vCash: 500
This team is missing 2 things:

A solid top-6 LW
A puck-moving, PP QB defenseman

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 11:17 AM
  #142
Fitzy
All Is Well
 
Fitzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,917
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
This team is missing 2 things:

A solid top-6 LW
A puck-moving, PP QB defenseman
If only Sanguinetti and Grachev were still here.

Looks like we're going to get to see if

A. Wolski fills need #1 and

B. Erixon/MDZ can fill hole two. Not enough cap space to try to fill those holes through anything but what we currently have.

Fitzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 11:23 AM
  #143
Shadowrunner
Registered User
 
Shadowrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,200
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Shadowrunner Send a message via AIM to Shadowrunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
We are in almost full agreement on this post
This is a team on the rise with two superstar forwards, a superstar goalie, an excellent defense and supporting cast, and one of the deepest prospect pools in the league. Sather deserves full blame for doling out horrid contracts circa 2007-2008, but the club has been moving in the right direction every year since the lockout, and is on the cusp of contending. If you fail to recognize that, you're either clueless or biased.

Shadowrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 11:32 AM
  #144
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
This is a team on the rise with two superstar forwards, a superstar goalie, an excellent defense and supporting cast, and one of the deepest prospect pools in the league. Sather deserves full blame for doling out horrid contracts circa 2007-2008, but the club has been moving in the right direction every year since the lockout, and is on the cusp of contending. If you fail to recognize that, you're either clueless or biased.
Brashear was a terrible contract and was Boogaard RIP.

You cannot look at Sathers body of work as GM of the NYR and state that it's been anything other than a debacle...I will agree that he has done better the last couple of years but that doesn't erase everything else. There isn't a GM in the NHL who would still be working with the same resume as Sather's NYR resume...if you fail to see that then you are clueless or blind.

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 11:53 AM
  #145
Shadowrunner
Registered User
 
Shadowrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,200
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Shadowrunner Send a message via AIM to Shadowrunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Brashear was a terrible contract and was Boogaard RIP.

You cannot look at Sathers body of work as GM of the NYR and state that it's been anything other than a debacle...I will agree that he has done better the last couple of years but that doesn't erase everything else. There isn't a GM in the NHL who would still be working with the same resume as Sather's NYR resume...if you fail to see that then you are clueless or blind.
Brashear, Boogard = suspect contracts, to be sure. But you can't call them terrible since they were easily solvable. Brashear was demoted, then traded. Boogard (RIP) probably would have been as well, so they didn't actually hurt the team.

Pre lockout Sather = one of the league's worst GMs, no question about it. Post lockout Sather = firmly in the top 10, if not top 5. For some reason you and some others can't seem to realize it's not 2003 anymore.

Shadowrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 12:00 PM
  #146
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Brashear, Boogard = suspect contracts, to be sure. But you can't call them terrible since they were easily solvable. Brashear was demoted, then traded. Boogard (RIP) probably would have been as well, so they didn't actually hurt the team.

Pre lockout Sather = one of the league's worst GMs, no question about it. Post lockout Sather = firmly in the top 10, if not top 5. For some reason you and some others can't seem to realize it's not 2003 anymore.
Your earlier post was it's not as bad as 07-08 now we are back to 03? Regardless of how he fixed his mistakes, he still made them...

I've already agreed that he is doing better as of late, but I'm not ready to forget what he did prior to the past couple of seasons...for some reason you want us to forget "Bad Sather"

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 12:08 PM
  #147
Blue Line Monster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
This is a team on the rise with two superstar forwards, a superstar goalie, an excellent defense and supporting cast, and one of the deepest prospect pools in the league. Sather deserves full blame for doling out horrid contracts circa 2007-2008, but the club has been moving in the right direction every year since the lockout, and is on the cusp of contending. If you fail to recognize that, you're either clueless or biased.
I'd like to actually see some results before I say they're on the cusp of contending. Maybe on the cusp of contending for the 5th seed or something. I'm not sure how a team that was "excellent" in almost every category needed to rely on the shootout to barely squeak into the playoffs. And then lost in 5 games to a team that sucks in the playoffs.

Right now, the best that can be said about Sather is that instead of barely making the playoffs with old teams, we did it with a young team.

Blue Line Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 12:59 PM
  #148
Shadowrunner
Registered User
 
Shadowrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,200
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Shadowrunner Send a message via AIM to Shadowrunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
Your earlier post was it's not as bad as 07-08 now we are back to 03? Regardless of how he fixed his mistakes, he still made them...

I've already agreed that he is doing better as of late, but I'm not ready to forget what he did prior to the past couple of seasons...for some reason you want us to forget "Bad Sather"
I said he gave out horrid contracts in 2007-2008, I didn't say the club as a whole was moving in the wrong direction.

It's not that I want to forget "Bad Sather," it's that I don't give a damn that he was bad 7 years ago. By your logic, if he were excellent from 2000-2004 and terrible from 2005 on, you'd want to keep him because of several excellent years almost a decade ago. I care much more about the current direction of the team.

Shadowrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 01:05 PM
  #149
Shadowrunner
Registered User
 
Shadowrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,200
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Shadowrunner Send a message via AIM to Shadowrunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Line Monster View Post
I'd like to actually see some results before I say they're on the cusp of contending. Maybe on the cusp of contending for the 5th seed or something. I'm not sure how a team that was "excellent" in almost every category needed to rely on the shootout to barely squeak into the playoffs. And then lost in 5 games to a team that sucks in the playoffs.

Right now, the best that can be said about Sather is that instead of barely making the playoffs with old teams, we did it with a young team.
I'm not sure how you can dispute that the team had excellent goaltending and defense last season. Our offense was inconsistent, sure, because we were also one of the league's youngest teams.

I believe it's fair to expect them to contend for the division lead next season, and that makes them contenders in my book. Not favorites yet, but contenders, in the mold of Tamba Bay this year.

Shadowrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2011, 01:25 PM
  #150
Chief
Registered User
 
Chief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NY, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Post lockout Sather = firmly in the top 10, if not top 5. For some reason you and some others can't seem to realize it's not 2003 anymore.
Wow!!! In 6 seasons the team has spent to the cap every year, missed the playoffs once, never made it out of the second round and "Sather = firmly in the top 10, if not top 5"???? And this while handing out three of the worst UFA contracts of all time, which resulted in wasted years.

Sather may be entering his finest moment as Rangers GM but other the the last couple of years he's been more bad than good.

Chief is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:59 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.