Bärtschi is going to be going down for at least one more year and he is one month younger than Nino..I don't think either is more ready than the other. Nino should go down for one more year.
Hmmm for Nino I think it really depends on one thing and that's zone play. He's going to go into training camp skating better than he did last year but for me it's what he does in the offensive zone. When he had his 9 game tryout here last season I felt he was one of the Isles better players in the defensive and neutral zones but felt totally lost in the offensive zone. If he has that figured out and shows that he belongs he definitely should be up with the big club this year. He was extremely poised on the defensive side of things for a kid last year and that will only get better. The only question I have is if he figured it out offensively when in terms of the NHL game.
I don't understand this notion. Can you name one player who has ever had their development ruined by being kept in junior too long? I keep hearing stuff like the bolded, but I can't come up with a single name who was drafted highly, highly touted, but whose career just went down the toilet because his NHL club decided to keep him in junior until he was 20 years old.
This is the problem with the debate about bringing players up v leaving them down...every player who comes up early and fails it is because he came up too early, while every player who stays in juniors for two more years and fails to make it is because of the player.
A player like Josh Bailey struggles as a 21 year old, and everyone says it is because he was rushed.
A player like Tomas Hickey can't crack the NHL and it is because he is a bust.
People assign cause and affect without any evidence one way or the other.
IMO, if a kid is mature and has his head screwed on straight then bringing them up "early" is not such a big deal. So long as a kid is physically mature and capable of playing defensive hockey at the NHL level they'll be okay up here. The danger is that they lose confidence in their offensive game when the points don't come. But if they're mature enough to handle that, then I think that's less of a danger. The question is, do they need the confidence of piling up points against kids or can they handle having less success against superior compeition. There have plenty of kids who made the jump in their draft year (Nino had another year in the WHL and WJC), had a transition period, and then started putting up points in a few years.
If a kid is going to be an NHL player, I think it's going to happen with a reasonable development path (assuming they're not brought up before they're physically or emotionally mature enough).
The "ridiculous rule" I was talkng about, is the rule that says you can't play in the AHL, unless your 20 years of age. That gives Nino little option.
It's 20 OR 4 years of service. It's a good rule to protect CHL teams and the players they develop from being scooped up and the teams ripped apart. The lifecycle in the CHL is already short for teams, so this is needed to provide stability.
As someone who lives in a CHL town, I think it's a good rule. I also think there are few CHL players that are ready to play against men in either the NHL or AHL so it really doesn't matter much and by and large they should stay in junior.
I want him in juniors, Sidney hit the nail on the head. We need to bump up expectations, part of that is not giving away roster spots based on age and potential. We should have/hopefully sign a top 6 forward which would bump down a player to the 3rd line so we don't have to give Nino a spot. He did not really earn the 9 games last year his draft position did.
Nino has to have a huge camp to make the team. Anything less than that and he goes to juniors. Schenn looked fine getting another year and dominating juniors
I'm honestly shocked at the overwhelming degree of sensibility here. It is a tremendous mistake to just annoint Nino a position on the NHL squad next season. He's a real young guy, even now. Another season in junior will not in any way hurt him. He's not Eric Lindros, he's not John Tavares, nothing about him indicates that he's outgrown the Major Junior level. His WJC showing was, quite frankly, underwhelming. If he is lights out in training camp and is one of the best players on the ice at all times, then yes, absolutely consider it. But also consider that he just missed being eligible for the 2011 draft. He has to earn a position on the NHL squad. If he doesn't blow anyone away, he should go back to Portland.
As to the bold- Meh, he can make the roster by simply being the best 3rd liner. I don't think anyone expects him to come to the NHL and become one of our best players even if he has 2 more years in Junior.
And lets face it, on our third line he wont have to be superman to stick. Physical, offensive and a nose for the front of the net will see him rewarded. I don't expect any end to end rushes, blowing by defense men by any big young kid.
I want him in juniors, Sidney hit the nail on the head. We need to bump up expectations, part of that is not giving away roster spots based on age and potential. We should have/hopefully sign a top 6 forward which would bump down a player to the 3rd line so we don't have to give Nino a spot. He did not really earn the 9 games last year his draft position did.
Nino has to have a huge camp to make the team. Anything less than that and he goes to juniors. Schenn looked fine getting another year and dominating juniors
Actually, all he has to do is to be one of the top 6 wingers and display physical and emotional maturity and he'll make the team.
As to the bold- Meh, he can make the roster by simply being the best 3rd liner. I don't think anyone expects him to come to the NHL and become one of our best players even if he has 2 more years in Junior.
And lets face it, on our third line he wont have to be superman to stick. Physical, offensive and a nose for the front of the net will see him rewarded. I don't expect any end to end rushes, blowing by defense men by any big young kid.
Don't misconstrue what I'm saying. What I mean is that if he's one of the best players on the ice at all times, that's the only reason why he should stay. Otherwise saying, I really think it's bes that he goes back to junior.
Don't misconstrue what I'm saying. What I mean is that if he's one of the best players on the ice at all times, that's the only reason why he should stay. Otherwise saying, I really think it's bes that he goes back to junior.
How about this crazy idea....the top 12 forwards play no matter what your name is. No matter how old you are...Same with the defense and goaltending and let's see where we are at.
Bärtschi is going to be going down for at least one more year and he is one month younger than Nino..I don't think either is more ready than the other. Nino should go down for one more year.
Actually, all he has to do is to be one of the top 6 wingers and display physical and emotional maturity and he'll make the team.
He is automatically behind Moulson, Grabner, Comeau, and Okposo right now. One could even argue PAP at this point for this season. If you really want to stretch it you can argue Martin (which I am not). We all want them to bring in a veteran top 6 winger. If it pushed Nino out for a year and he can dominate juniors and work on his skating and not burn a year of the ELC the team and a Nino can only gain.
Hmmm for Nino I think it really depends on one thing and that's zone play. He's going to go into training camp skating better than he did last year but for me it's what he does in the offensive zone. When he had his 9 game tryout here last season I felt he was one of the Isles better players in the defensive and neutral zones but felt totally lost in the offensive zone. If he has that figured out and shows that he belongs he definitely should be up with the big club this year. He was extremely poised on the defensive side of things for a kid last year and that will only get better. The only question I have is if he figured it out offensively when in terms of the NHL game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptDenisPotvin
How about this crazy idea....the top 12 forwards play no matter what your name is. No matter how old you are...Same with the defense and goaltending and let's see where we are at.
How about this crazy idea....the top 12 forwards play no matter what your name is. No matter how old you are...Same with the defense and goaltending and let's see where we are at.
Because if Nino's one of those top 12 forwards in training camp, and then he finds himself in over his head during the NHL season, there are no options for him. He's going to waste a year struggling. It's time to be cautious with the under 20's. There's no reason to rush him.
Because if Nino's one of those top 12 forwards in training camp, and then he finds himself in over his head during the NHL season, there are no options for him. He's going to waste a year struggling. It's time to be cautious with the under 20's. There's no reason to rush him.
Exactly, right now he is 1 of the top 12 forwards by default. Why are some so anxious to rush a 19-20 year old onto the team. He will probably have little impact on the team and burn a year of his ELC. In juniors he would be getting huge minutes on a good team and be counted on as a leader. Reminds of you of Bailey who was Captain of a great team who would have got huge minutes but he was rushed and now has the confidence of an nonathletic 13 year old with acne.
Lets bring in a player over 25 who can play and let prospects develop in the minors and juniors. Good teams like Detroit, Philly, Vancouver etc.. don't bring up kids out of cheapness and necessity
I agree to an extent. I would rather have Nino in the AHL. I think he's done everything to prove he's ready to advance past the WHL, but he may not quite be ready for the NHL. You're game can't improve if you don't get challenged. The WHL is not going to challenge Nino. The AHL is where he belongs.
I was listening to a soccer anaylist recently (that irish guy on espn) commenting on the fact that the American teams never seem to get over the hump. He blamed the fact that americans play in college and there's no way you can improve your game playing in an inferior league. In europe I guess the system allows you to play in various leagues and improve your game by playing against better competition. He said better competition forces you to raise the level of your game. I have to think the same thing applies to hockey. Nino's game won't get better in the WHL. The "ridiculous rule" I was talkng about, is the rule that says you can't play in the AHL, unless your 20 years of age. That gives Nino little option.
That "ridiculous rule" is in place so that the junior leagues don't lose all their players at age 18, after NHL teams draft them. If the rule/agreement wasn't in place, then the NHL could send every single player they drafted directly to the AHL/ECHL, which would mean that about 40% of the players currently playing in the CHL wouldn't be in the league.
Those players are the life blood of the CHL, and would seriously hurt not only the quality of hockey played in the various CHL leagues, but also hurt the box office. Right now, their unnofficial slogan is "watch tomorrow's stars today", but if every single NHL draftee is sent to the AHL instead of back to junior after being picked, then who is going to come out and see that? Tickets are about $20 a piece, but who is going to pay that amount if there's no "stars of tomorrow" to go see? You might as well go watch Tier II or Junior C hockey, which costs about $2 bucks to go see.
I know some folks who don't follow, or don't know much about, the CHL think it's no big deal. But the CHL is *the* development league for junior aged players. If the CHL dies, guess what? So does a major source of development for these same players.
The NHL *relies* on the junior leagues to act as a feeder league for them. It's a no-cost development league for them. That's why the NHL is fine with the agreement, because the CHL assumes the majority of the costs of developing these "stars of tomorrow", and the NHL eventually reaps the benefit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper11
This is the problem with the debate about bringing players up v leaving them down...every player who comes up early and fails it is because he came up too early, while every player who stays in juniors for two more years and fails to make it is because of the player.
A player like Josh Bailey struggles as a 21 year old, and everyone says it is because he was rushed.
A player like Tomas Hickey can't crack the NHL and it is because he is a bust.
People assign cause and affect without any evidence one way or the other.
The flaw in your thinking above is that, are you suggesting that Hickey wouldn't be a bust if he was allowed to play in the AHL at age 18 or 19? Hickey simply wasn't ready for pro -- whether it be NHL or AHL -- at age 19, because of his size/strength issues. So putting him in the AHL wouldn't have been the solution, since he'd be pushed around and feasted on by *men*.
In junior, he could gain strength/muscle, but since he was competing against other boys, the lack of strength wouldn't hamper his game. So him being kept in junior for that extra year or two was the *right* decision.
Hickey's a bad example for you to use, because he's the perfect example (smallish, weak physically) of a prospect who desperately needs his full junior career in order to bulk up and get stronger, before he has any chance of surviving at the pro level.
Him turning into a bust (can you really write him off this early?) has more to do with him being a reach of a pick, than it does because he was kept in junior "too long", IMO.
Bärtschi is going to be going down for at least one more year and he is one month younger than Nino..I don't think either is more ready than the other. Nino should go down for one more year.
It's not such an age issue. It's a physically mature issue. Nino is physically ready for the NHL, Bartschi still needs to get a little stronger.
Again, I'd prefer it if Nino could go to the AHL and get used to the size and speed, rather then back to the WHL or up to the NHL.
It's 20 OR 4 years of service. It's a good rule to protect CHL teams and the players they develop from being scooped up and the teams ripped apart. The lifecycle in the CHL is already short for teams, so this is needed to provide stability.
As someone who lives in a CHL town, I think it's a good rule. I also think there are few CHL players that are ready to play against men in either the NHL or AHL so it really doesn't matter much and by and large they should stay in junior.
I understand the rule is to protect CHL teams and players, but we all mature at different times, and are built differently. A player like Nino had done all he can at Portland. He's much better suited to the AHL and I think it will improve his game and better prepare him for the NHL. If the Islanders feel that way, Nino will stay with them after camp, although given the option of the AHL, the Islanders might have choosen that route instead.
That "ridiculous rule" is in place so that the junior leagues don't lose all their players at age 18, after NHL teams draft them. If the rule/agreement wasn't in place, then the NHL could send every single player they drafted directly to the AHL/ECHL, which would mean that about 40% of the players currently playing in the CHL wouldn't be in the league.
Your concern is more about the league then the player. If a team believes their prospect can no longer progress in the juniors, but is too young for the AHL, that player might just be rushed to the NHL, as opposed to getting used to the speed and the size gradually by going through the AHL.
I also think a better system can be worked out. Instead of requiring a player to be at least 20 years old before being eligible for the AHL, what if the rule states a player drafted at 18 years old, has to play at least 1 year in juniors. In the 2nd year the team that drafted the player has an option of sending that player to the AHL if they think the player's ready.
Again, it's all about bringing a player along gradually and giving that player a chance to play against better competiton as his game improves.
