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[MIN/SJS] Minnesota trades Martin Havlat to San Jose for Dany Heatley - II

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Old
07-04-2011, 11:23 PM
  #26
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People act like Heatley is terrible. What Minnesota needs is a guy that can score, and possibly help them win some games. Minnesota needs a real top line guy. Havlat was supposed to be that guy, and he didn't produce as well as he was expected to.

Minnesota's goals aren't the exact same as San Jose's goals. San Jose wants to win a Stanley Cup. SJ has the pieces to win a cup, but they just haven't ever been able to get the job done. They get seemingly closer yearly, only to fall short. Minnesota, on the other hand, has trouble just scoring goals. Heatley could come up huge for them, and maybe he could help them possibly reach the playoffs. I still don't see them getting in, but if I had to choose Heatley or Havlat to play on my borderline playoff team, I'd take Heatley.

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07-04-2011, 11:35 PM
  #27
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This thread has devolved into silly bickering.

When this off-season started I had proposed trading Heatley for Burns. I did so because I thought Heatley would be great for the Wild (and still do) and it would be a better situation for both teams.

As it turns out, we got Burns and Havlat and the only roster player beyond Heatley we had to give up was Setoguchi. I'm extremely happy with the deal's and so should be the Wild. Both team's got better and that is the best kind of trade.

I will say I was surprised they Wild wanted Coyle and not Braun, Doherty or Petrecki (our top d prospects) in order to replace Burns. Either of which I would have been happier to give up (just because we have more depth on defense) over Coyle, but I'd still do the trade again (assuming we re-sign Burns, which I am confident we will).

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07-04-2011, 11:43 PM
  #28
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I just hope we can sign burns because talent wise we lost this trade for sure imo. Heatley had a bad year, but he's still Dany Heatley! Havlat is a borderline 1st liner that had one good playoffs 5 years ago.

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07-04-2011, 11:52 PM
  #29
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07-04-2011, 11:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheDanceOfMaternity View Post
I just hope we can sign burns because talent wise we lost this trade for sure imo. Heatley had a bad year, but he's still Dany Heatley! Havlat is a borderline 1st liner that had one good playoffs 5 years ago.
The only other recent time he made it to the playoffs(09) he was at a point per game pace and ended with 5 goals, that's an improvement over what heatley's been giving us in the postseason - 9 points in 19 games.

That "borderline 1st liner" also scored 29 goals/70 points the last time he was in a decent offense with chicago...

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07-05-2011, 12:00 AM
  #31
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"I just talked to fletcher I was like what the **** what the **** what the **** then he ****ing hung up on me, then I fired my agent and hired havlat's agent" LOL.

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07-05-2011, 12:05 AM
  #32
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Dobber: First i liked the moves SJ has made this summer. Then i woke up. Havlat and Burns are a couple of the biggest band-aid boys in the nhl. Considering the reasons for early exits recently are injury-related, how can this be good? It's doubtful that The Gooch and The Grinch were the reasons for SJ's demise before. Wild may have gotten the healthier, and therefore better players here.

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07-05-2011, 12:38 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOMapleLaughs View Post
Dobber: First i liked the moves SJ has made this summer. Then i woke up. Havlat and Burns are a couple of the biggest band-aid boys in the nhl. Considering the reasons for early exits recently are injury-related, how can this be good? It's doubtful that The Gooch and The Grinch were the reasons for SJ's demise before. Wild may have gotten the healthier, and therefore better players here.
Poor argument

Recent health suggests nothing of the nature

As much as you don't want to believe it, Sharks got much better

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07-05-2011, 01:38 AM
  #34
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Poor argument

Recent health suggests nothing of the nature

As much as you don't want to believe it, Sharks got much better
Havlat has yet to play a full season. Lately he's been holding back, ie. staying away from checking, so he can stay relatively healthy.

Burns is one season removed from a catastrophic, high risk to reoccur, head injury.

Let us not pretend that SJ is rolling the dice here.

However, the trading of Heatley so often kinda indicates where he's at. Kinda a lose-lose trade if you ask me.

The Gooch might be the best out of the bunch, long-term.

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07-05-2011, 02:06 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by D Huang View Post
Poor argument

Recent health suggests nothing of the nature

As much as you don't want to believe it, Sharks got much better
Wasn't everyone just saying a few months ago what an injury prone defenseman Burns was? That they didn't think his value is high because of his injuries?

And despite what people think, Minnesota got a hell of a lot better.

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07-05-2011, 02:24 AM
  #36
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I can understand the argument that San Jose needed to incorporate more speed into their line up, I guess.

But I think Heatley is going to out-shine Havlat, there is a chance that Martin could be somewhat the stir that stirs San Jose, but it is more likely that an injury will render him less effective

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07-05-2011, 03:00 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOMapleLaughs View Post
Havlat has yet to play a full season. Lately he's been holding back, ie. staying away from checking, so he can stay relatively healthy.

Burns is one season removed from a catastrophic, high risk to reoccur, head injury.

Let us not pretend that SJ is rolling the dice here.

However, the trading of Heatley so often kinda indicates where he's at. Kinda a lose-lose trade if you ask me.

The Gooch might be the best out of the bunch, long-term.
Why do people keep repeating this garbage? Havlat has played 3 seasons without missing 13 or more games per season. That is solid enough.

SJ was rolling the dice to begin with before and after they picked Heatley up. Cheechoo isn't even in the NHL anymore, and MM? That guy is 1 lower body injury away from never being the same again.

And of course Seto is the best long term. He still has years ahead of him in his career. With the way the game is these days, he will probably get his bell rung too, and we're all going to call him injury prone as well.

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Old
07-05-2011, 03:54 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by kolider
No offense, but you seem quite adamant to defend Heatley when the cold hard truth is that his play has diminished enough that he wasn't even earning his $7.5/mill paycheque in SJ.
The cold hard truth is he wasn't really ever expected to. We have Thornton locked up at 7m and Marleau locked up at 6.7, plus Boyle at 6.6, we knew when he came in we were paying a premium on his contract to add what was hoped to be a final piece to an already stacked roster.

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Originally Posted by kolider
I mean cripes, at least the guy put up the points in Ottawa which validated his salary. Now his goal totals have been cut in half and he has been quite brutal when it matters most.
He put up as many or more points with the Sharks in his 1st season as he did in his last two seasons with the Sens. This season was a down season for all Sharks due to the terrible start; Joe Thornton had a career-low 70 points this year and you will not find a single Sharks fan that would take him to task for it because we watched them play. This year the entire offense was crippled by a mediocre defense, plus the emergence of Logan Couture changed Heatley's role.

Heatley was probably going to be back on the top line this season and I'd have expected 80+ from him again, with 35+ goals. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him hit that with the Wild. Note that 80 points this season would have placed a player in the top 10 in the entire league.

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Originally Posted by kolider
I find it incredible that people continue to defend the man after what he has done up to this point in his career - both on and off the ice. The guy has been given enough of a fair shake so far that continuing to do so boggles the mind.
I find it incredible that people bash the man for what he has supposedly done on and off the ice ... since he has done essentially what was expected on the ice and at least in his latest stint, has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NEGATIVE off the ice that anyone knows of.

The guy has been given such a bum rap so far and it boggles the mind how far some fans will go to lay it on the guy. I will always think poorly of fans who would change their opinion of my team because of Heatley, and think even less if what happened in his time with the Sharks does anything other than improve their opinions of him.

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Old
07-05-2011, 04:15 AM
  #39
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The Sharks gave up way too much in these trades. I like this most recent trade for the Sharks, but when you add up both trades, the Wild look really good on the Burns trade.

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07-05-2011, 04:39 AM
  #40
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I like this trade for both teams. Heater gives Koivu a scoring threat that will shoot the puck at will and Havlat adds a better all round game and some great speed to the Sharks. Win-Win.

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07-05-2011, 05:01 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
This thread has devolved into silly bickering.

When this off-season started I had proposed trading Heatley for Burns. I did so because I thought Heatley would be great for the Wild (and still do) and it would be a better situation for both teams.

As it turns out, we got Burns and Havlat and the only roster player beyond Heatley we had to give up was Setoguchi. I'm extremely happy with the deal's and so should be the Wild. Both team's got better and that is the best kind of trade.

I will say I was surprised they Wild wanted Coyle and not Braun, Doherty or Petrecki (our top d prospects) in order to replace Burns. Either of which I would have been happier to give up (just because we have more depth on defense) over Coyle, but I'd still do the trade again (assuming we re-sign Burns, which I am confident we will).
Many of the Wild's best prospects are on D, and though they don't have the offensive capability that Burns has...our clear need prospect wise was skilled forwards. There was no doubt that if the Wild took a prospect it would have been skill up front!

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07-05-2011, 05:16 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Schennanigans View Post
The Sharks gave up way too much in these trades. I like this most recent trade for the Sharks, but when you add up both trades, the Wild look really good on the Burns trade.
It's a win for both teams. Ask any Sharks fan in the beginning of the off-season. We wanted to get rid of Heatley, but figured it would not be possible. Setoguchi was the most replaceable Top 6 forward.
Also, it depends on how you look at it. Instead of looking at it as Heatley for Havlat and Setoguchi for Burns, swap the players. Any Sharks fan would easily trade Heatley for Burns. Any Sharks fan would easily trade Setoguchi for Havlat. The 1st round pick for a 2nd is pretty negligible. Low 1st in a weak draft for a mid 2nd in a deep draft. Add in Coyle just to make the Wild fans happy.

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07-05-2011, 05:31 AM
  #43
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The Sharks gave up way too much in these trades. I like this most recent trade for the Sharks, but when you add up both trades, the Wild look really good on the Burns trade.
Yeah it would have been nice if we could have just gotten burns for seto and coyle to be honest considering burns could sign somewhere else(perhaps we should have given them a conditional 2012 1st with the condition being he re-signs with us, otherwise it turns into a 2nd)

...But oh well, the pick giveaway wilson does every year won't catch up to us for a few more years which is probably about how many more we can seriously contend for before our core is just too old anyway.

We upgraded our defense immensely with that trade, which was pretty much the #1 need coming out of the playoffs.

What the average outsider may not realize is we had 7 top six quality forwards, and it's a bit of a waste to put one down with bottom six talent. Making seto essentially more replaceable than you might think with a surplus of depth at the position.

Havlat for heatley is a good deal for both teams because they need more goals and we need speed(due to the seto deal), and to simply "shake things up" with our underperforming top forwards in the playoffs - heatley was the main one even with injury excuses.

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07-05-2011, 05:38 AM
  #44
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It's a win for both teams. Ask any Sharks fan in the beginning of the off-season. We wanted to get rid of Heatley, but figured it would not be possible. Setoguchi was the most replaceable Top 6 forward.
Also, it depends on how you look at it. Instead of looking at it as Heatley for Havlat and Setoguchi for Burns, swap the players. Any Sharks fan would easily trade Heatley for Burns. Any Sharks fan would easily trade Setoguchi for Havlat. The 1st round pick for a 2nd is pretty negligible. Low 1st in a weak draft for a mid 2nd in a deep draft. Add in Coyle just to make the Wild fans happy.
I completely forgot about next year's 2nd lol. That does make the 1st seem like not as big of a deal. The 1st we have next year and that 2nd could even be combined to trade up since we'll be far back in the 1st round of that draft .

and yes I would have traded heatley for pucks after his playoff performance, but I was afraid his NMC would get in the way.(to be fair I haven't liked him since the first game I saw him play with us).

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07-05-2011, 09:26 AM
  #45
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Alright the first thing I need to dispel, once again, is that Havlat has been "healthy" the last three seasons.

Again, I like Havlat just fine. I have an autographed picture of him in my living room. He was my favorite forward last year on the Wild. Very exciting to watch.

But he was injured in 2009-10 from training camp until December.

Here are excerpts from a piece I wrote last year: (I grant myself permission to quote myself at length without plagiarism)

Quote:
While Wild fans wanted to see Havlat put up 25+ goals and 70+ points, the most frustrating part of his appearance on these lists was the laziness of the writers who compiled them. It seems that whenever the Wild get any kind of national attention, it is based on hearsay and a casual glance of the stats. Havlat had 46 points in Minnesota, he should have had 70, he’s a bust.

Watching the first two months of last season, the former #14 looked slow and ineffective. He struggled to find chemistry with his countrymate Petr Sykora out of the lineup, he played the perimeter of the offensive zone, and he frankly looked frightened to be on the ice. And who could blame him, having been Kronwalled in the playoffs (perhaps the original Kronwalling).

But what is seldom reported is that he was playing through groin injuries. According to TheHockeyNews.com, Martin Havlat missed two games with a groin injury in October and four games with a hamstring injury in November. Again, he had 2 goals and 8 points in 19 games during that stretch, or 0.42 points per game, compared to his 2005-09 average of 0.93.

Havlat has never been a big speed guy, but any hockey player will tell you that trying to play on a strained or injured groin, hamstring, or hip flexor is incredibly painful. Especially when it comes to the quick starts and stops that a shifty offensive forward utilizes frequently. It is no wonder that he lacked speed and kept to the outside, dumping the puck off to teammates quickly.

After sitting out two weeks to heal, he returned to the lineup in December and immediately found chemistry with newly-acquired winger Guillaume Latendresse. His numbers through the rest of the year were fairly strong: 16 goals and 46 points in 54 games, or 0.85 points per game. Over a full season, that would be 24 goals and 70 points, almost exactly what was expected of him.

Of course, this year Havlat has failed to score (although he is third in points on the team) and became the center of controversy due to agent Alan Walsh’s claims that he is underutilized. And while he seems to have overcome the injury bug for now, he will have to find a way to produce without Latendresse, who is out indefinitely with a groin injury.
There are several things that this calls out:

1. Havlat in 2009-10 was cast as a complete disappointment by everyone in the media and by most fans.

2. Havlat was injured that year, despite what his games played statistics show.

3. Once he returned from injury, he played very well, up to expectations.

4. He did sulk last year and failed to produce early on. But of course he rebounded and played quite well after being challenged by the captain and the coach.

Now those are facts. Not opinion. You can argue them if you'd like, but you might as well argue about the Earth being flat.

I'd also like to turn the tables a bit. If it's possible that Havlat can have a "down year" (due to injury) that is overlooked by everyone in this thread NOT from Minnesota, why is it not possible that Heatley can have a "down year" (due to injury) as well? Havlat rebounded quite well from his injuries and regained his form.

It's been documented by Michael Russo that Heatley was injured last year:

Quote:
Heatley admitted he was disappointed with a subpar three-goal postseason. Of course, he was playing despite a broken bone above the wrist and below the thumb -- a k a his trigger finger. But he vowed to come to Minnesota in "great shape" and "prove people wrong."
For anyone who plays hockey, let's try an experiment: take a hammer and hit yourself in the thumb as hard as you can, then hit yourself on the wrist as hard as you can. Now try and shoot the puck.

This doesn't excuse Heatley from being slow and out of shape. It seems he's admitted that as well. I'm guessing that's why he dropped from 50 goals to 39 the two seasons before he broke his hand. That's probably why he gets ripped by San Jose fans (who apparently are so offensively spoiled that 39 goals is a huge disappointment for a pure sniper).

Again, I think this trade can be a definite win-win for both teams. Minnesota was last in the league in shots on goal. We had nobody who could shoot the puck. Havlat would score a great goal every few games, but mostly created space for his teammates, who of course couldn't score. But we also have Bouchard and Koivu who can create opportunities for their linemates. It seems San Jose has Marleau, Pavelski, and Couture who can score goals, and adding Havlat gives them another great playmaker. I don't buy the playoff performance of either player since it's such a small sample size each year and over their careers both have been pretty good.


Last edited by Jarick: 07-05-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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Old
07-05-2011, 09:40 AM
  #46
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I like this trade for both teams. San Jose needed more speed and Havlat provides that. As of today, San Jose is the team to beat in the West. They've made some great moves. It's time for Chicago or Detroit to make a big move to make up the ground. We know one is coming in Chicago, but Detroit is surprisingly quiet this offseason.

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07-05-2011, 10:06 AM
  #47
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San Jose will be disappointed. Havlat at his best is the caliber of player Heatley is at his worst. The Sharks want change so they're happy with anything. Good for them then.

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07-05-2011, 10:20 AM
  #48
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This doesn't excuse Heatley from being slow and out of shape. It seems he's admitted that as well. I'm guessing that's why he dropped from 50 goals to 39 the two seasons before he broke his hand. That's probably why he gets ripped by San Jose fans (who apparently are so offensively spoiled that 39 goals is a huge disappointment for a pure sniper).
The bolded is assinine.

The simple fact is he didnt fit in San Jose. His salary was preventing the team from upgrading their D, which is one of the reasons the offensive numbers for the entire team took a hit last year and is largely the only reason they didnt get through the Canucks.

The playoffs, which is what is important to San Jose, has no place for a "pure sniper". Sure, if your trying to get to the playoffs those goals are nice, but hes useless in the playoffs because his time and space are taken away and he cant skate well enough to create his own.

This trade will be a win/win for both teams. Heater will get his space and score his goals. The Sharks will get another top six forward who can skate and bring a bit more dynamic play to what will likely be the second line. The Sharks have plenty of trigger guys, this trade makes sense.

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07-05-2011, 10:23 AM
  #49
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San Jose will be disappointed. Havlat at his best is the caliber of player Heatley is at his worst. The Sharks want change so they're happy with anything. Good for them then.
I don't get it, do people not understand the concept of a bad fit? It doesn't matter if Havlat isn't better than Heatley, what matters is if the Sharks a better team than they were before the trade. Most sharks fans, and Mr. Brass balls himself (Doug Wilson) would say yes.

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07-05-2011, 11:06 AM
  #50
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Less a trade about Havlat and Heatley, more a trade about Logan Couture. If SJ can afford to keep that kid now 'because' of this trade, they win.

He is the true leader of that team.

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