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Penguins to host prospect development camp from 7/11 - 7/16

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Old
07-14-2011, 06:51 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Honestly, that statement just sounds blindly homerish. I don't know how you can say that, especially considering the bulk of the drafting performance is as a result of rankings by our scouting staff.

Shero has only been on the job since 2006, and since that time, only 1 player (Jordan Staal) has become an NHL regular. Even if you examine that pick, you can say pretty definitively that he didn't select the best player that year (Toews).

The fact is not enough time has passed to make any such definitive statement. We have also drafted very few players out of Europe, and only one (Kuhnhackl) seems to have legit promise; and selecting him in the 4th round was a fairly easy & lucky choice, considering he was ranked #8 among European skaters.

So there's nothing I see that doesn't indicate a general lack of talent mining in Europe. So I was simply saying that I don't buy into the idea that the Pens don't draft Europeans because of an issue with style of play.
Esposito, Veilleux, Bennett, Kuhnhackl, Hanowski, and Moon were all guys who were drafted as skilled forwards. Honestly, Shero's MO since he's been here has been on defensemen.

Despres was drafted because he was a superior player. Shero takes what is there. Just because he doesn't take what you want doesn't mean he's not taking what he and his squad feels is the best available player. Rumor is he tried to move up to get Tarasenko. He's not opposed to taking Europeans, as much as some want to think he is.

I think you're completely off base, and you're one of those people who gets pissy when Shero passes over a guy you like for a guy you don't. He knows more than you. I trust his opinion. He has hit much more than he has missed. In reality, Shero's 1st draft class was 2007, and we're just creeping up now on the time period where those guys should begin trickling into the league, and that class doesn't look bad. It still has some developing to do.

I said it around the draft that yes, we don't have the staff in Europe. It is what it is and no matter the amount of *****ing you want to do will change that. With that being said, Shero and Co should draft what they know. They know North Americans and they draft them well. Stick with what works.

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You can't really compare different teams that didn't play against each other at the same time (i.e. Philly beat MTL because they had X, so we lost because we didn't have X).

The fact is: we lost to MTL because they outplayed us, and pretty significantly. If you go back and watch that series, you will see that Pascal Dupuis was probably the best and most consistent player for us in that series. That is a case where if your best players aren't your best players (and the other team's best were their best), you probably aren't going to win.
They didn't outplay us. For all but one game, we dominated shot totals, and we spent a huge portion of every game in their zone. That's partially why the series was as frustrating as any. Halak played some unreal goal, and Fleury did the complete opposite.


Last edited by JTG: 07-14-2011 at 06:59 PM.
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07-14-2011, 07:00 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Face-offs would undoubtedly be better, but I don't think we've seen enough of the two of them together to judge the rest.

Personally, I loved the Cooke - Letestu - Kennedy line last year.



Agreed.
If Sid centers Kunitz and Neal, then Sullivan on Geno's RW would work. Sullivan is a C/W. And, unlike Staal, I just think he's got the offensive smarts and hands to make the hybrid thing with Geno work better than Staal.

I think one of the reasons it worked with Talbot is because Talbot completely got Geno out there. He knew when to get him the puck. He knew where to go and often where Geno would go with the puck. He knew when to give Geno space with the puck and when to support. And, most of all, he knew how to clear out of the middle of the ice when it was time for Geno to come swooping through in transition.

The two things that really give me pause about Staalkin:

1. Geno is more likely to get confined in transition to the right side of the ice than he is at center. It won't happen always, but it will happen. And, that's a heck of a price to pay.

2. Geno on the wing is flat footed more in the neutral zone than he is when he's playing center. No speed going, easier to keep to a side and stand up . . .

That said, I have no problem doing it sometimes. I have no problem using Geno as the ultimate lineup rover, playing on every single line and with almost every player during the course of the game. I'm still in the camp that thinks it's less important to count how many shifts are at C and how many are at W than it is to make sure he gets steady, consistent minutes, especially early in a game. On this issue, I've always seen Sid as kind of an energizer bunny . . . flip the switch, drop the puck, and he goes, whether he plays 5 minutes total or 20 minutes total. Geno, by contrast, is like a wind up doll (it's something Therrien figured out and something Bylsma figured out in game 3 Washington before forgetting [or because Granato, rather than Fitgerald, was making line changes thereafter]).

Last comment of the night: The reason I really obsess about putting Geno in a position to succeed isn't about excuses for the last two years or who deserves what. Rather, it's this: Sid is the straw that stirs the drink for this team. He's the captain, the leader, period. But, Geno is like the team's nexus. He swings one way, especially in the playoffs, and everything just seems to follow, for better or for worse. It's why I view getting Geno going as being a far more important matter for Bylsma this year than deciding whether Staal deserves to be 2C or 3C.

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07-14-2011, 07:03 PM
  #178
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Just watched the Guerin mic'd up part, lol...looks like he's really taken Beau under his wing. He was bugging him like a little brother the entire time but also making sure he didn't get down on himself when he missed a few shots.

Side note: Morrow has an absolute cannon of a slap shot. That's if #7 was Morrow.

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07-14-2011, 07:05 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Speaking of conditioning it looks like Sid is ready for the season to start.

http://www.jimloomisphotography.com/...sc1705.jpg.php

What a cream puff. Trade him. He's getting lazy.

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07-14-2011, 07:07 PM
  #180
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Sid's arms look stronger then Geno's chicken legs.

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07-14-2011, 07:07 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
If Sid centers Kunitz and Neal, then Sullivan on Geno's RW would work. Sullivan is a C/W. And, unlike Staal, I just think he's got the offensive smarts and hands to make the hybrid thing with Geno work better than Staal.

I think one of the reasons it worked with Talbot is because Talbot completely got Geno out there. He knew when to get him the puck. He knew where to go and often where Geno would go with the puck. He knew when to give Geno space with the puck and when to support. And, most of all, he knew how to clear out of the middle of the ice when it was time for Geno to come swooping through in transition.

The two things that really give me pause about Staalkin:

1. Geno is more likely to get confined in transition to the right side of the ice than he is at center. It won't happen always, but it will happen. And, that's a heck of a price to pay.

2. Geno on the wing is flat footed more in the neutral zone than he is when he's playing center. No speed going, easier to keep to a side and stand up . . .

That said, I have no problem doing it sometimes. I have no problem using Geno as the ultimate lineup rover, playing on every single line and with almost every player during the course of the game. I'm still in the camp that thinks it's less important to count how many shifts are at C and how many are at W than it is to make sure he gets steady, consistent minutes, especially early in a game. On this issue, I've always seen Sid as kind of an energizer bunny . . . flip the switch, drop the puck, and he goes, whether he plays 5 minutes total or 20 minutes total. Geno, by contrast, is like a wind up doll (it's something Therrien figured out and something Bylsma figured out in game 3 Washington before forgetting [or because Granato, rather than Fitgerald, was making line changes thereafter]).

Last comment of the night: The reason I really obsess about putting Geno in a position to succeed isn't about excuses for the last two years or who deserves what. Rather, it's this: Sid is the straw that stirs the drink for this team. He's the captain, the leader, period. But, Geno is like the team's nexus. He swings one way, especially in the playoffs, and everything just seems to follow, for better or for worse. It's why I view getting Geno going as being a far more important matter for Bylsma this year than deciding whether Staal deserves to be 2C or 3C.
Getting Geno going is definitely a top priority.

How that will be best accomplished remains to be seen though. Staalkin may be the catalyst, and I'd like to see it a legitimate shot. If it doesn't work, I'd have no problems bumping Staal back.

Either way, I'd like to see Malkin get more minutes too.

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07-14-2011, 07:11 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Speaking of conditioning it looks like Sid is ready for the season to start.

http://www.jimloomisphotography.com/...sc1705.jpg.php
Jesus. Remember that picture from Cannes where he was looking a little soft (for him) a couple of months ago?

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07-14-2011, 07:14 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Getting Geno going is definitely a top priority.

How that will be best accomplished remains to be seen though. Staalkin may be the catalyst, and I'd like to see it a legitimate shot. If it doesn't work, I'd have no problems bumping Staal back.

Either way, I'd like to see Malkin get more minutes too.
Geno's a work horse. I think he needs to get the most mins on the team to be the most effective.

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07-14-2011, 07:28 PM
  #184
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Despres was drafted because he was a superior player. Shero takes what is there. Just because he doesn't take what you want doesn't mean he's not taking what he and his squad feels is the best available player.
When did I ever say Shero should have taken "X" player instead of another? I'm not sure if you're just trying to put words in my mouth just so you can argue with me.

You said Shero always takes the best player. If what you mean by that is Shero takes the player that is ranked highest remaining on their list, well that goes without saying and all GMs do that. If it implies that Shero always takes the player who is the best period, well that can't be said.

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Rumor is he tried to move up to get Tarasenko. He's not opposed to taking Europeans, as much as some want to think he is.
I was going to bring up this example, as well. You were the one who said Shero likes to take NA players and wouldn't draft the type of guys Detroit woulkd because the Pens play an NA style game. I thought that statement was nonsense and the Tarasenko example is a perfect one.

But again, Tarasenko was a consensus "top-10 talent" in that draft, and only fell because of the Russian factor (CBA & KHL issue). So for the Pens to like Tarasenko is very obvious and not dependent on great scouting because he was a well known commodity as a player.

The problem is not the "obvious" selections (Malkin, Tarasenko, or Kuhnhakl in the 4th round), but the fact that the Pens don't seem to find the diamonds that are hidden in the rough. I was simply stating: I believe this is an issue of lack of quality scouting in Europe and not an ideological decision; and one that hopefully gets corrected soon.

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I think you're completely off base, and you're one of those people who gets pissy when Shero passes over a guy you like for a guy you don't. He knows more than you. I trust his opinion. He has hit much more than he has missed. In reality, Shero's 1st draft class was 2007, and we're just creeping up now on the time period where those guys should begin trickling into the league.

Again, please give me an example. Outside of Harrington, I don't remember ever complaining, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong about that player. And when did I say I know more than him? I simply said: the Pens do not draft well in Europe.

And you can't say: he has hit much more than he has missed, when 1 player out of the 25 drafted since 2006, Staal, (and not including 2011 draft) has become a regular NHLer, while one of the better ones (Muzzin) wasn't signed. Granted, I agree with you that it's too early to early to tell with some of our younger guys, which is why I remain undecided, while you make conclusive statements such as him hitting more than he misses. That's why I said your statement comes across as homerish.

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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I said it around the draft that yes, we don't have the staff in Europe. It is what it is and no matter the amount of *****ing you want to do will change that. With that being said, Shero and Co should draft what they know. They know North Americans and they draft them well. Stick with what works.
I agree with that concept: that they should draft the players they know now. But at the same time, they should be trying to address the weakness of lack of talent mining in Europe. They have not done that yet, and that is what I am disappointed about.

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07-14-2011, 08:08 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
When did I ever say Shero should have taken "X" player instead of another? I'm not sure if you're just trying to put words in my mouth just so you can argue with me.

You said Shero always takes the best player. If what you mean by that is Shero takes the player that is ranked highest remaining on their list, well that goes without saying and all GMs do that. If it implies that Shero always takes the player who is the best period, well that can't be said.



I was going to bring up this example, as well. You were the one who said Shero likes to take NA players and wouldn't draft the type of guys Detroit woulkd because the Pens play an NA style game. I thought that statement was nonsense and the Tarasenko example is a perfect one.

But again, Tarasenko was a consensus "top-10 talent" in that draft, and only fell because of the Russian factor (CBA & KHL issue). So for the Pens to like Tarasenko is very obvious and not dependent on great scouting because he was a well known commodity as a player.

The problem is not the "obvious" selections (Malkin, Tarasenko, or Kuhnhakl in the 4th round), but the fact that the Pens don't seem to find the diamonds that are hidden in the rough. I was simply stating: I believe this is an issue of lack of quality scouting in Europe and not an ideological decision; and one that hopefully gets corrected soon.




Again, please give me an example. Outside of Harrington, I don't remember ever complaining, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong about that player. And when did I say I know more than him? I simply said: the Pens do not draft well in Europe.

And you can't say: he has hit much more than he has missed, when 1 player out of the 25 drafted since 2006, Staal, (and not including 2011 draft) has become a regular NHLer, while one of the better ones (Muzzin) wasn't signed. Granted, I agree with you that it's too early to early to tell with some of our younger guys, which is why I remain undecided, while you make conclusive statements such as him hitting more than he misses. That's why I said your statement comes across as homerish.



I agree with that concept: that they should draft the players they know now. But at the same time, they should be trying to address the weakness of lack of talent mining in Europe. They have not done that yet, and that is what I am disappointed about.
He has guys playing in pro hockey, and quite a few more on the way. Saying, "he only has one guy in the NHL" is a dumb comment because anyone who knows anything about the maturation of prospects knows that it takes 4-7 years for guys to get to the NHL. Shero came in 2006...2011 is 5 years.

WBS' stacked blueline is all Shero. Jeffrey, Staal, Letestu, Lovejoy are all Shero. They can address their lack of high end talent by drafting in North America.

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07-14-2011, 08:23 PM
  #186
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He has guys playing in pro hockey, and quite a few more on the way. Saying, "he only has one guy in the NHL" is a dumb comment because anyone who knows anything about the maturation of prospects knows that it takes 4-7 years for guys to get to the NHL. Shero came in 2006...2011 is 5 years.
Exactly. Which is why I'm saying I'll take an open-minded, jury's-still-out approach to our prospects before polishing Shero's knob for drafting them.

Way to miss my point and to evade backing up your statement about me allegedly complaining about our draft picks.

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07-14-2011, 08:27 PM
  #187
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There's really no evidence to support the myth that the Penguins are avoiding skilled forwards. The Penguins do select and acquire players that play Pittsburgh Penguins hockey, but that's it. There are plenty of skilled players who also play Pittsburgh Penguins hockey. Shero has done a fine job of bringing those guys in.

The following is a comprehensive (albeit subjective and quickly assembled; feel free to edit) list of 'skilled' players acquired by the Pittsburgh Penguins under Ray Shero and his scouting staff. By 'skilled players,' I mean players who had the skill set to either be placed in or project into a top six role.

Drafted:
Angelo Esposito (2007)
Keven Veilleux (2007)
Casey Pierro-Zabotel (2007)
Luca Caputi (2007)
Dustin Jeffrey (2007)
Ben Hanowski (2009)
Nick Petersen (2009)
Beau Bennett (2010)
Tom Kuehnhackl (2010)
Kenneth Agostino (2010)
Josh Archibald (2011)


Signed:
Mark Recchi (2006, 2007)
Petr Sykora (2007)
Miro Satan (2008)
Ruslan Fedotenko (2008)
Janne Pesonen (2008)
Mike Comrie (2010)
Steve Sullivan (2011)


Traded For:
Nils Ekman (2006)
Marian Hossa (2008)
Chris Kunitz (2009)
Eric Tangradi (2009)
Bill Guerin (2009)
Alexei Ponikarovsky (2010)
James Neal (2011)
Alexei Kovalev (2011)


The drafts have seen a nice combination of big-name skilled fallers (Esposito, Veilleux, CPZ, Kuehnhackl) and under-the-radar picks. Most (but not all) play a solid all-around game in addition to their offensive skills. In all, 11 of our 30 draft picks under Shero have been 'skilled forwards' who were drafted with point production in mind for the future.

The trade list speaks for itself. All of those guys except Kovalev and maybe Ekman were highly valued and/or highly sought-after. Some didn't work out, but the intent to add skill was absolutely there.

Skilled UFA signings have been rare, and when they have happened, they have come from the lower-middle tier (aka the bargain bin and/or targeting 'veteran presence'). This is absolutely because skilled players are the ones who end up getting overpaid on July 1st, not because of some sort of organizational allergy to skill. Even at that, it's well-known that signing Hossa was a top priority in 2008.

The recent list of highly-skilled UFA signees is riddled with contracts that teams already regret. Considering Shero's focus on cap space for the core and the defense, the Penguins simply can't risk having that sort of albatross of a contract. I mean, are we advocating signing Kristian Huselius at a cap hit of 4.75 per or Michael Ryder at 3.5 per? I'd rather not go down that path. Guys of that ilk tend to be passengers. Guys with their hands who play Penguins hockey are simply out of our price range. I'm not sure why people think a guy with silky smooth hands will be better for this team than a guy who will skate through a brick wall to score. One shows up consistently; the other is everything that Penguins fans look for in a scapegoat.

I have no problem with saying the search for talented wingers hasn't produced 4 simultaneous top six wingers yet (though I believe it will very soon), but I do have a problem with implying that the organization is somehow turning a blind eye to the problem. That's clearly not the case. They may not have added the skilled players that you wanted, but they have added the skilled players that they had targeted through every method of acquisition.

I will say that I would like to see a stronger scouting presence in Europe, though. There's no way around that. I just don't think it's necessary to imply that the Penguins avoid Europe because they're avoiding skill. There's only a very loose and general correlation there. Players out of North America can be just as skilled as any silky smooth Swede.

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07-14-2011, 08:29 PM
  #188
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He has a pretty damn good start. WBS' blueline is all his doing. Some of the top performers to go through WBS are all his doing.

For all the *****ing that goes on about Shero's drafting...he has sure had some pretty good players turn out of those picks.

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07-14-2011, 08:32 PM
  #189
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Skilled UFA signings have been rare, and when they have happened, they have come from the lower-middle tier (aka the bargain bin and/or targeting 'veteran presence'). This is absolutely because skilled players are the ones who end up getting overpaid on July 1st, not because of some sort of organizational allergy to skill. Even at that, it's well-known that signing Hossa was a top priority in 2008.

The recent list of highly-skilled UFA signees is riddled with contracts that teams already regret. Considering Shero's focus on cap space for the core and the defense, the Penguins simply can't risk having that sort of albatross of a contract. I mean, are we advocating signing Kristian Huselius at a cap hit of 4.75 per or Michael Ryder at 3.5 per? I'd rather not go down that path. Guys of that ilk tend to be passengers. Guys with their hands who play Penguins hockey are simply out of our price range. I'm not sure why people think a guy with silky smooth hands will be better for this team than a guy who will skate through a brick wall to score. One shows up consistently; the other is everything that Penguins fans look for in a scapegoat.

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07-14-2011, 08:36 PM
  #190
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GM's are hit or miss, for Shero he's more hit than miss. I'm fine with his drafting, some of the stuff makes me wonder, but it's clear he's done his research and with the draft, it's never a guarantee every pick.

My only complaints are the lack of scouting in certain areas, like the WHL, Europe, etc.

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07-14-2011, 08:39 PM
  #191
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I have always kind of complained about the lack of WHL talent we bring in, but he reversed that role this draft. I hope it stays that way.

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07-14-2011, 08:43 PM
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He has a pretty damn good start. WBS' blueline is all his doing. Some of the top performers to go through WBS are all his doing.

For all the *****ing that goes on about Shero's drafting...he has sure had some pretty good players turn out of those picks.

Wow. The goalposts have really changed in this discussion from your original statement about how the Pens don't draft good European players like Detroit because we play a NA style game, to free agents or other draft picks that comprise the WBS team. Two completely separate issues...


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I have always kind of complained about the lack of WHL talent we bring in, but he reversed that role this draft. I hope it stays that way.
A great example of how we CAN improve the breadth of our scouting. Perhaps we've taken this step forward in the WHL, and now it's time we do that in Europe.

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07-14-2011, 08:51 PM
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Wow. The goalposts have really changed in this discussion from your original statement about how the Pens don't draft good European players like Detroit because we play a NA style game, to free agents or other draft picks that comprise the WBS team. Two completely separate issues...




A great example of how we CAN improve the breadth of our scouting. Perhaps we've taken this step forward in the WHL, and now it's time we do that in Europe.
Nothing has changed. Shero takes, especially in the 1st round, the best player that is there. He's not adverse to skill, he's not adverse to Europeans.

You said he doesn't take the best players that are available (which lead to my comment where because they weren't the best players on your board doesn't mean they weren't the best on his), and that for all the flak he gets about his drafting, all his guys have done is turn pro. So far, he's 4/5 in 2006.

In 2007, Espo was the best player, he took Veilleux, Caputi, Bortuzzo, Jeffrey, and Muzzin who all look to have NHL potential. Grant will probably be AHL fodder.

Those are really the only 2 years you can go by right now, and IMO, that's a ton of NHL potential in 13 picks.

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07-14-2011, 09:24 PM
  #194
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Starting to believe Tangradi will make the big squad.

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07-14-2011, 10:09 PM
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The more I read and watch Joe Morrow, the more I like him.

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07-14-2011, 10:27 PM
  #196
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The more I read and watch Joe Morrow, the more I like him.
It's too early to predict ceilings, but he comes off as a character guy with great work ethic to go along with being a terrific athlete. On many other teams, he might be able to make the jump from his final year of eligibility at the Junior level to the NHL (What Despres is trying to do this year). Probably won't be the case with the Pens, but you catch my drift.

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07-14-2011, 10:29 PM
  #197
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Nothing has changed. Shero takes, especially in the 1st round, the best player that is there. He's not adverse to skill, he's not adverse to Europeans.

You said he doesn't take the best players that are available (which lead to my comment where because they weren't the best players on your board doesn't mean they weren't the best on his), and that for all the flak he gets about his drafting, all his guys have done is turn pro. So far, he's 4/5 in 2006.
I think this is where the miscommunication occurred, because I never, ever said anything of the sort. I was a big supporter of the Morrow pick, for example (and advocated drafting a Dman since we traded Goligoski).

My foray into this discussion was simply a response to your point about not drafting Europeans and how we won't be like Detroit. I'm sure others may have criticized his drafting, but please remember it wasn't me who said that -- so it is best that people (not just you or me) don't project those sentiments made by some people onto others who never said it.

With all that said, I would give the Pens an above-average grade on drafting, with the understanding that things could change in the near future. They are by no means in the bottom tier, but they are not in the elite tier either of drafting either. But I do not put this blame on Shero at all (and in general GM's are not the ones who really decide picks after maybe the first round or two). Shero has come in as a new GM and has slowly built-up the front office staff & scouting departments, and that is something we need to continue so we can become one of the elite drafting teams -- especially because we're unlikely to be picking in the top 15 for the next 10 years.

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07-14-2011, 10:31 PM
  #198
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Jeff Goldblum View Post
I will say that I would like to see a stronger scouting presence in Europe, though. There's no way around that. I just don't think it's necessary to imply that the Penguins avoid Europe because they're avoiding skill. There's only a very loose and general correlation there. Players out of North America can be just as skilled as any silky smooth Swede.
Oh no, the Pens aren't averse to drafting for skill, and your list proves it.

But having so little presence in Europe virtually ensures that when we do draft for skill, we don't have a full enough picture to make the most informed selection we can, which could easily lead to missing out on the BPA.

That's what bothers me. That and the fact that the organization doesn't seem to believe there's anything wrong with it.

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07-14-2011, 10:32 PM
  #199
Jacob
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I think the lack of WHL draft picks is merely a coincidence that'll probably balance itself over the next few years.

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07-14-2011, 10:37 PM
  #200
AgentM
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Starting to believe Tangradi will make the big squad.
What are the max number of active players we can have to start the year? 21 skaters and 2 goalies?

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