The fact that we've heard so little, as in like 'nothing', from the Islanders side, I feel inclined to simply see this as a case of Isles sleeping at the helm. Been said in other threads, but if the team had any idea these guys were gonna take this route, they'd have handled things differently, at least doing what they did when they traded Walter for Romano or Niemi for a 6th.
They missed the boat here - and I must say that we shouldn't downplay either Gregoire and Kessel's prospects here. Both have done some nice things at the NCAA level and should be seen as prospects.
Correct, Garth and his staff either did not know about the rule or enjoy giving up prospects for free. This shows incompetence, similar to Nashville with the RFA situation this year.
Hopefully they learned and will sign Lee and try to get him to Bport this season. He proved he can handle the college game so it would be nice to see what he can do in the AHL. If he stays in college this year, he would have little motivation to sign here if he can wait another year to become a UFA.
Even if he hasn't signed in Winnipeg yet, I still doubt he winds up signing with us. It's too bad, but what can you do. Luckily, we're pretty deep in the prospect department.
The best result if he signs elsewhere is to have him on the losing side when we next hoist the Cup. And again the next year.
Of course we could always line Haley up against him on his first shift in the NVMC and let him whisper sweet things in his ear about the Isles not being good enough for him . . .
While it would have been nice to see Gregoire and Kessel signed or at least had their rights traded for other picks or players, because you never want to see assets walk away for nothing, we have to remember that there are a lot of players ahead of them on the overall Islanders depth chart. Both players probably realized that too and have opted to look for a quicker path to the NHL with another team.
Even though Gregoire and Kessel are interesting prospects, they are definitely behind Nino, Strome, de Haan, Poulin, Nilsson, Cizikas, Donovan, KK, KP, Lee, Nelson and Wishart in terms of attention from the Isles (i.e., $$$), promotions, etc. In all likelihood they are probably behind even Rakhshani and Ullstrom, who have produced in the AHL, and perhaps even Katic, Ness and Koskinen (if he can get it turned around this season). That is at least a dozen-plus players to jump over, and up to 20 overall, plus even more when you add in the young vets already on the Isles.
More than likely Gregoire and Kessel wanted an easier path to the NHL and, as late bloomers who were not locked up early, they are taking that road. Based on all of the above, this is probably best for all concerned. Let's just be thankful for the deep pool of young talent the Isles have stockpiled so far and not dwell on a couple names who got away. Especially since the main concern for the Isles should be adding a couple more established names to help the young players win and develop.
While it would have been nice to see Gregoire and Kessel signed or at least had their rights traded for other picks or players, because you never want to see assets walk away for nothing, we have to remember that there are a lot of players ahead of them on the overall Islanders depth chart. Both players probably realized that too and have opted to look for a quicker path to the NHL with another team.
Welp, that is pretty much the sucky part of this.
Decent guys gone for nothing - and no explanation as to why it was allowed to happen.
I have no doubt Gregoire and Kessel believe they can give themseves better possibilities by going the UFA route. Both will be signed somewhere.
Decent guys gone for nothing - and no explanation as to why it was allowed to happen.
I have no doubt Gregoire and Kessel believe they can give themseves better possibilities by going the UFA route. Both will be signed somewhere.
I have to assume that the Isles initially took a wait-and-see approach to extending a contract offer given that both players made slow but steady progress and the Isles had so many other players listed ahead of them on the depth chart. Then it got to the point where it was in the best interests of the players to simply play it out and hit the market.
Perhaps the Isles did shop their rights around the league and found no takers or were offered very little in return. After all, why offer anything for middling prospects when you know they will simply become available in a month or so and you can just bid then and only give up $$$?
This is probably a case where the depth of the Isles prospect pool and limited spots and $$$ worked against them. It is unfortunate, and could probably have been handled better, but it is what it is now. This is not on the level of another Blackhawks' RFA incident from a couple years ago, a Tim Erixon mistake or a Blake Wheeler error. Again unfortunate but (hopefully) this will not make or break the Isles and they can find comparable replacements for the system in coming drafts, college signings, trades, etc.
No, this is not as bad as some of the other teams screw ups, Tallon with Versteeg, Blake Wheeler, Tim Erixon. But it has all the signs of an unneccessary FUBAR by Garth.
I have followed Gregoire's career at UND pretty closely the past two years, watched about 30 of their games on TV.
This is not to say he is a sure thing or a definate missed opportunity, but do not downplay his chances of being a very good two way NHL winger.
Gregoire was a 3rd round selection who played at a somewhat higher level on a stacked UND team. He is a finisher who plays an active and responsible defensive game, so no, I do not see him being behind many other of our prospects. Kabanov for example may have more raw ability, but it hasn't been applied other than a small playoff run, as has Gregoire.
I would say that he performed as a good 2nd round selection could be expected to at UND, and we should have been very excited to have seen him at Bridgeport except for this mess. Be clear, he is not just a filler or a body. This kid has game. Of course that is no guaranty, I just would have been happier if we had the chance to keep him and see if he could take that to the level I think he has in him.
It's not even a loophole folks... its actually quite a normal clause, just hardly anyone has made use of it.
Basically, if you get drafted and THEN play a year of USHL hockey before going to college, you get UFA rights as of the summer after your junior year.
The agreement is saying that a team does NOT get to have the rights of a player for 5 years, should in this case, the player do one year of USHL and then 4 years of college.
The idea is that no matter what, a team only has a maximum of 4 years of a player's rights, if the player so chooses.
As Ettlinger alludes to, I'm afraid we have to chalk this up to the Islanders, if we see the Gregoire/Kessel situation as having been a mistake.
The fact that we've heard so little, as in like 'nothing', from the Islanders side, I feel inclined to simply see this as a case of Isles sleeping at the helm. Been said in other threads, but if the team had any idea these guys were gonna take this route, they'd have handled things differently, at least doing what they did when they traded Walter for Romano or Niemi for a 6th.
They missed the boat here - and I must say that we shouldn't downplay either Gregoire and Kessel's prospects here. Both have done some nice things at the NCAA level and should be seen as prospects.
Katic is all we have left from the '07 draft.
Dude, no need for the crayola-esque explanation. Whether one refers to it as a loophole or otherwise, the point is that I think it's an unfortunate rule leaving teams with little leverage. Maybe in the future they shouldn't pick college bound prospects b/c they know going in that they can bail if they play a year of ushl and get draft prior to college. Signing a 3rd round pick that had a pretty good year is tricky, especially if he wanted first round money (i don't know), which is why i don't blame snow.
you make it seem like the islanders had hand, but they didn't because he always had this fallback option.
I like the UND blogger (aka, liar) who gave the bogus statements of how he was pre-writing an article which included a guestimate that Winnipeg was the destination and it somehow got posted.
The world must be stupid.
Also, I disagree that this is Snow's fault. I'm usually the first guy to take bad news and look for the fall guy, but here, this is simply a matter of a player and his agent being fully aware of the loophole and tactically biding time.
What did they do?
Freshman year. Weigh progress. Analyze situation. Make decision to sign or not. No pressure.... no risk of never being signed. Wait.
Sophomore year. Weigh progress. Analyze situation. Make decision to sign or not. No pressure.... no risk of never being signed. Wait.
Junior year. Weigh progress. Analyze situation. Make decision to sign or not. No pressure.... no risk of never being signed. Wait.
Senior year. Injury free. Made bit of a name. Wait an extra month or two and execute on the loophole.
Loophole or not, this says everything about the integrity of the player.
I hope he falls flat on his face.
Bring on the arguments of "those are the rules" and "its a business".... but this was a controllable situation on the players end. He very well could have said -- this organization put their faith in me and it's time to honor that.
Dude, no need for the crayola-esque explanation. Whether one refers to it as a loophole or otherwise, the point is that I think it's an unfortunate rule leaving teams with little leverage. Maybe in the future they shouldn't pick college bound prospects b/c they know going in that they can bail if they play a year of ushl and get draft prior to college. Signing a 3rd round pick that had a pretty good year is tricky, especially if he wanted first round money (i don't know), which is why i don't blame snow.
Welp, even Botta is calling it a loophole, and I think we need to move away from that word.
My idea of a loophole is that there are several stipulations in an agreement that somewhat contradict, or a stipulation is omitted or very poorly worded, thus creating gray area that someone can use to get out of the agreement.
In this case we just seem to have a seldom-used but thoroughly existing stipulation. It had been made use of before. Basta.
When we heard the news about Gregoire and then Kessel, the first thing that I wrote here was that this was a situation that would surely be dealt with in the CBA negotiations (the Erixon case will need to be dealt with as well).
Then again, it seems to be there to ensure that a team doesn't have a guy's rights for more than four seasons. Maybe the two parties will continue to think that's perfectly fine.
Quote:
Maybe in the future they shouldn't pick college bound prospects b/c they know going in that they can bail if they play a year of ushl and get draft prior to college. Signing a 3rd round pick that had a pretty good year is tricky, especially if he wanted first round money (i don't know), which is why i don't blame snow.
Well, we chatted about this before the draft. I felt a lot like you do when it all started taking place.
We came to the conclusion that at least Snow was HIGHLY unlikely to pick a kid who they knew was committed to college, but was going to spend another year in the AHL.
If you take a kid who goes straight to the NCAA, like I believe is the case with Russo, then this stipulation is not applicable.
Quote:
you make it seem like the islanders had hand, but they didn't because he always had this fallback option.
Um yes, actually that's my point in nitpicking on the term loophole.
The onus is on the Islanders here. This should not be downplayed. If they really had been awake and knew they wanted to at least try to keep these boys in the system, then they would have known that they had to sign them over the course of this past season. If either had then said "I'm not conducting contract negotiations at this point", much less had informed the Isles that they would be making use of this stipulation, then the Isles would have had to decide to trade those rights or chance it that they'd walk away for nothing.
A realist would have then traded the rights due to the uncertainty arising through their actions and the knowledge that they could use this stipulation, i.e. that they'd be walking anyway.
Gregoire has now done that.
The chances are MIGHTY high that Kessel will too.
Again, the onus is on the Isles for not having kept these kids as prospects OR at least turning them into other assets. From what we've seen of Snow, I'm almost certain he's a realist and would have moved them for at least a 6th rounder, much like when he pawned off Niemi - albeit that was a different situation - had he and the legal staff have seen this coming whatsoever. I think they were completely oblivious to this possibility.
Naturally, neither player could have been forced into a contract with us one way or the other. But that's technically the case for any draftee.
Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 07-07-2011 at 12:09 PM.
Bring on the arguments of "those are the rules" and "its a business".... but this was a controllable situation on the players end. He very well could have said -- this organization put their faith in me and it's time to honor that.
Well, it was a controllable situation from the Islanders side too, had they acted pre-emptively.
See the post before this one, but if you're aware that the situation is possible (which I don't think the Isles were), then you sign them in-season or you trade their rights by the deadline so as to not take the chance that they simply walk.
It takes TWO to tango, so both sides are at fault.
That said, the "loophole" must be addressed. Let's take a look:
If you don't sign an OHL, WHL, QMJHL player after two years, he goes back into the draft
If you draft a player playing in an overseas league, you keep his rights until he comes to the NHL
Why is it that an NCAA player who's played 3 years plus a USHL year can just become a UFA? I understand if he had to go back into the draft, but to give him the rights of a 25 year old at the age of 21 is silly at best and a travesty at worst.
It takes TWO to tango, so both sides are at fault.
The Islanders are at fault here, 100%. Blame Snow, blame the intern, blame the ice girls, blame Wang, someone is at fault. Someone either Snow or his staff f'd up. It is VERY obvious that they did not know the rule being that 2 players took advantage of it. They should have locked them up after freshman or sophomore year or at least dealt them. They are both good prospects that we lost for nothing. This team has a long way to go and can not give away any assets for free.
Welp, even Botta is calling it a loophole, and I think we need to move away from that word.
My idea of a loophole is that there are several stipulations in an agreement that somewhat contradict, or a stipulation is omitted or very poorly worded, thus creating gray area that someone can use to get out of the agreement.
In this case we just seem to have a seldom-used but thoroughly existing stipulation. It had been made use of before. Basta.
When we heard the news about Gregoire and then Kessel, the first thing that I wrote here was that this was a situation that would surely be dealt with in the CBA negotiations (the Erixon case will need to be dealt with as well).
Then again, it seems to be there to ensure that a team doesn't have a guy's rights for more than four seasons. Maybe the two parties will continue to think that's perfectly fine.
Well, we chatted about this before the draft. I felt a lot like you do when it all started taking place.
We came to the conclusion that at least Snow was HIGHLY unlikely to pick a kid who they knew was committed to college, but was going to spend another year in the AHL.
If you take a kid who goes straight to the NCAA, like I believe is the case with Russo, then this stipulation is not applicable.
Um yes, actually that's my point in nitpicking on the term loophole.
The onus is on the Islanders here. This should not be downplayed. If they really had been awake and knew they wanted to at least try to keep these boys in the system, then they would have known that they had to sign them over the course of this past season. If either had then said "I'm not conducting contract negotiations at this point", much less had informed the Isles that they would be making use of this stipulation, then the Isles would have had to decide to trade those rights or chance it that they'd walk away for nothing.
A realist would have then traded the rights due to the uncertainty arising through their actions and the knowledge that they could use this stipulation, i.e. that they'd be walking anyway.
Gregoire has now done that.
The chances are MIGHTY high that Kessel will too.
Again, the onus is on the Isles for not having kept these kids as prospects OR at least turning them into other assets. From what we've seen of Snow, I'm almost certain he's a realist and would have moved them for at least a 6th rounder, much like when he pawned off Niemi - albeit that was a different situation - had he and the legal staff have seen this coming whatsoever. I think they were completely oblivious to this possibility.
Naturally, neither player could have been forced into a contract with us one way or the other. But that's technically the case for any draftee.
I disagree, and that's fine. I think the "onus" is shared by these types of players and organization.
It takes TWO to tango, so both sides are at fault.
That said, the "loophole" must be addressed. Let's take a look:
If you don't sign an OHL, WHL, QMJHL player after two years, he goes back into the draft
If you draft a player playing in an overseas league, you keep his rights until he comes to the NHL
Why is it that an NCAA player who's played 3 years plus a USHL year can just become a UFA? I understand if he had to go back into the draft, but to give him the rights of a 25 year old at the age of 21 is silly at best and a travesty at worst.
The Islanders are at fault here, 100%. Blame Snow, blame the intern, blame the ice girls, blame Wang, someone is at fault. Someone either Snow or his staff f'd up. It is VERY obvious that they did not know the rule being that 2 players took advantage of it. They should have locked them up after freshman or sophomore year or at least dealt them. They are both good prospects that we lost for nothing. This team has a long way to go and can not give away any assets for free.
Say what you want about Snow but I would bet my life that he knows very well exactly what the rules are. A little bit ago Botta published some quotes from random, anonymous agents that basically said that Snow knows the CBA inside and out. And even if he didn't he has some specialist on staff who had have told him about this.
how do you know he didn't want to play with the team from the get go and wanted to walk before negotiations? it goes both ways, IMO.
If you offered a contract early on they probably would have taken it. The players/agents outsmarted Snow and the Isles. Why take a last minute deal with a team that means nothing to you when you can be a UFA?
If you offered a contract early on they probably would have taken it. The players/agents outsmarted Snow and the Isles. Why take a last minute deal with a team that means nothing to you when you can be a UFA?
you're blinded by snow hate and you're totally not getting it.
Why is it that an NCAA player who's played 3 years plus a USHL year can just become a UFA? I understand if he had to go back into the draft, but to give him the rights of a 25 year old at the age of 21 is silly at best and a travesty at worst.
Because the idea that the NHLPA pushed through is that a kid's rights should only be held for two seasons, or four seasons in the case of an NCAA player.
The idea that a guy's rights should not belong to a club for more than a maximum of 4 seasons is what led to this stipulation.
They wanted to prevent that teams possess a guy's rights for 5 years via an USHL season and then 4 years of college.
