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07-10-2011, 12:02 AM
  #526
kojiro
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My whole adult life i have seen this team take the moderate, cautious approach while other teams made daring moves and won...For once i would really like to see this organization swing for the fences and seize the opportunity.
If all it would cost us was 3-4 years’ worth of mid first round picks at best than i say go for it. Even if it doesn’t pan out in the end at the very least the next 4-5 seasons will be exciting... You can always find ways to get a first round pick via trade anyway, a ton of them are swapped every year!
Plekanec,Cammalleri and Gionta are all under contract until the 2013-14 season so we have a small window of opportunity to capitalize on, we have to make the best of it right now.

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07-10-2011, 12:13 AM
  #527
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I do NOT think trading away our core is something to do... However I believe we would certainly benefit from an offer sheet. Yes loosing 5 first round pick would suck.

Considering we typically do pretty well in round 2,3,4,etc... (Streit, Subban, Lapierre, Plekanek, Markov, White, Halak (now Eller), Obyrne, etc.. ). And I guess we will see with Kristo, Avstin, Archambeault, etc..). We could almost say our first round players have not turned into anything more special then our round 2-6 picks in the past years.

Our core is getting younger;; (Plekaneks, Pacioretty, Eller, DD, Subban, Georges, Price)

We still have some quality depth in the system: Kristo, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi to name a few...

So if there where a time where I would be willing to loose 5 first round for a player, it would be now... and Stamkos would certainly be at the top of my list.

I would offer him a Crosby type Contract and dump Gomez to the minors...Worst that can happen is that Tempa matches which in turn would be bad for them and we would force the hand of a competitor to spend more cap space then required.

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07-10-2011, 12:18 AM
  #528
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On an offer sheet of 80 mil for 10 years, we lose 4 first round picks, but we get one of the best goal scorers in the NHL. I'm not a big fan of losing 4 first round picks, but I do think Stamkos is worth it. Hell make it 90 mil for 10 years, it's still less then Alex O and we take away an important player on a team that can win now.

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:20 AM
  #529
SB164
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, winning teams have stars.

The stanley cup finals had Chara and Thomas versus Sedin and Sedin.
The semi finalists had Stamkos, Lecavalier, St-Louis on the one hand, and Thornton, Marleau and Heatley on the other.

Recent Stanley Cup champions had Toews, Kane and Keith; Crosby, Malkin and Fleury; Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom; Getzlaf, Selanne, Pronger and Niedermeyer; Staal and Ward.

That's objective reality. Another objective reality is Steven Stamkos as one of the elite centers in the NHL. The only maybes are the values of the 25th overall we would give up.

One of those players could turn into the Max Pacioretty of the 2018-2019 season !!!
Great point, while obvious, it's often overlooked. And winning teams not only have stars, but they also have potential future Hall of Famers. From the above list alone, I'd say there's at least six players who will one day be inducted at the HOF.

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:29 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
On an offer sheet of 80 mil for 10 years, we lose 4 first round picks, but we get one of the best goal scorers in the NHL. I'm not a big fan of losing 4 first round picks, but I do think Stamkos is worth it. Hell make it 90 mil for 10 years, it's still less then Alex O and we take away an important player on a team that can win now.
Amen!

Even if we force Tempa to sign him at a rediculous price... we gain by seeing another team be stuck with CAP issues (Lecavalier, St-Louis, Stamkos and Hedman to be signed soon, would chew up quite a big margin of there CAP space).

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:43 AM
  #531
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You offer a sheet to an RFA, you add a target onto your back as well. I don't know about you guys, but with Subban becoming RFA after next season, I wouldn't want the GMs of other teams looking at the Habs and thinking; "Well, they offered a sheet to Stamkos last year...."

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:45 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
To Tampa
Gomez, Weber + 1st in 2012 , 1st in 2013 and 1st in 2014

To Montreal
Stamkos, 1 ton of nuclear waste


An honest fair deal. We get their thrash and they get ours
At least, we can dream....

Oh and you can add a 4th first round pick.

Max Pacioretty - Tomas Plekanec - Steven Stamkos (I know SS is a center but I prefer sniper on the wing).
Michael Cammalleri - David Desharnais - Brian Gionta
Andrei Kostitsyn - Lars Eller - Erik Cole
Travis Moen - Ryan White - Mathieu Darche (Mike Blunden)

Andrei Markov - Josh Gorges/UFA
Hal Gill - P.K. Subban
Alexei Emelin - Josh Gorges/UFA (Jaroslav Spacek)

Carey Price - 1 ton of nuclear waste


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Old
07-10-2011, 12:58 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
I do NOT think trading away our core is something to do... However I believe we would certainly benefit from an offer sheet. Yes loosing 5 first round pick would suck.

Considering we typically do pretty well in round 2,3,4,etc... (Streit, Subban, Lapierre, Plekanek, Markov, White, Halak (now Eller), Obyrne, etc.. ). And I guess we will see with Kristo, Avstin, Archambeault, etc..). We could almost say our first round players have not turned into anything more special then our round 2-6 picks in the past years.

Our core is getting younger;; (Plekaneks, Pacioretty, Eller, DD, Subban, Georges, Price)

We still have some quality depth in the system: Kristo, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi to name a few...

So if there where a time where I would be willing to loose 5 first round for a player, it would be now... and Stamkos would certainly be at the top of my list.

I would offer him a Crosby type Contract and dump Gomez to the minors...Worst that can happen is that Tempa matches which in turn would be bad for them and we would force the hand of a competitor to spend more cap space then required.
Pretty much sums up my mind.

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Old
07-10-2011, 01:19 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
You offer a sheet to an RFA, you add a target onto your back as well. I don't know about you guys, but with Subban becoming RFA after next season, I wouldn't want the GMs of other teams looking at the Habs and thinking; "Well, they offered a sheet to Stamkos last year...."

Even if you play the niceGM type of guy there is no guarantee that other GM will not submit an offer sheet to PK or Price.

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Old
07-10-2011, 01:31 AM
  #535
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Stamkos is nice but I want Tavares

To Isles
Gomez (low cost high cap value)
Kristo
Tinordi
1st in 2013
1st in 2014

To Montreal
Tavares
Yashin (2,2M buyout)


Pacioretty - Tavares - Gionta
Cammy - Plekanec - Cole
Eller - Desharnais - Palushaj/AK

Him and Subban are like blood brothers.. Landing him would be just so amazing!

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Old
07-10-2011, 02:41 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Rscorpio View Post
Even if you play the niceGM type of guy there is no guarantee that other GM will not submit an offer sheet to PK or Price.

It may not be spoken about(collusion), but most GM's tend not to offer sheet because it just limits their ability to sign/retain their own talent later on as it drives up player values.


Plus payback is a *****. Just ask Edmonton when Burke offer sheets Paajarvi, Eberle and/or Hall to get back at Lowe for signing Penner.

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Old
07-10-2011, 02:43 AM
  #537
habshound247
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
Stamkos is nice but I want Tavares

To Isles
Gomez (low cost high cap value)
Kristo
Tinordi
1st in 2013
1st in 2014

To Montreal
Tavares
Yashin (2,2M buyout)


Pacioretty - Tavares - Gionta
Cammy - Plekanec - Cole
Eller - Desharnais - Palushaj/AK

Him and Subban are like blood brothers.. Landing him would be just so amazing!
Absolutely, and he would be cheaper than Stamkos too!

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Old
07-10-2011, 02:53 AM
  #538
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Any scouting report about that new 1 ton of nuclear waste ?

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07-10-2011, 03:07 AM
  #539
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Great point, while obvious, it's often overlooked. And winning teams not only have stars, but they also have potential future Hall of Famers. From the above list alone, I'd say there's at least six players who will one day be inducted at the HOF.
Keep in mind however that players who win cups also have a far greater chance of being inducted as HoFers.

Take Markov for instance ; he wins the cup, he's an HoFer. He doesn't, he's not.

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07-10-2011, 03:52 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Keep in mind however that players who win cups also have a far greater chance of being inducted as HoFers.

Take Markov for instance ; he wins the cup, he's an HoFer. He doesn't, he's not.
Kind of a chicken and an egg situation though isn't it? It's not so much that one's a great player because they've won a Cup, but that they won a Cup because they are a great player.

But more importantly, you also have to look at the contributions of said Stanley Cup-winning future Hall of Famers. Would Detroit/Anaheim/Tampa/Pittsburgh won their Stanley Cups without Lidstrom, Neidermayer, Pronger, Selanne, St-Louis and Crosby? Such players are not only great individually, they also make everyone around them look better. I tell you if Markov plays that type of level in the playoffs, the Habs will have a far better chance of winning it all in the next few years, and if they don't succeed, other teams will surely notice and perhaps even try to pry him away.


Last edited by SB164: 07-10-2011 at 04:10 AM.
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Old
07-10-2011, 07:00 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by kojiro View Post
My whole adult life i have seen this team take the moderate, cautious approach while other teams made daring moves and won...For once i would really like to see this organization swing for the fences and seize the opportunity.
If all it would cost us was 3-4 years’ worth of mid first round picks at best than i say go for it. Even if it doesn’t pan out in the end at the very least the next 4-5 seasons will be exciting... You can always find ways to get a first round pick via trade anyway, a ton of them are swapped every year!
Plekanec,Cammalleri and Gionta are all under contract until the 2013-14 season so we have a small window of opportunity to capitalize on, we have to make the best of it right now.
Which teams made daring moves and won?

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Old
07-10-2011, 07:01 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
You offer a sheet to an RFA, you add a target onto your back as well. I don't know about you guys, but with Subban becoming RFA after next season, I wouldn't want the GMs of other teams looking at the Habs and thinking; "Well, they offered a sheet to Stamkos last year...."
There have been so few offer sheets that I dont think weve seen the payback offer sheet. But, with longer contracts the top UFAs wont come up for auction again so wed probably see more offer sheets. It seems that human nature would say GMs would likelier target a GMs team who himself made an offer sheet because whats good for the goose...

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07-10-2011, 07:14 AM
  #543
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Originally Posted by habshound247 View Post
Absolutely, and he would be cheaper than Stamkos too!
How would he be cheaper ??

In term of players/picks : No, he is the NYI franchise and they have no pressure actually to trade him ...

In term of money : Yes & No, He is due a mother****ing big raise next summer... but yes technically for 1 year he would be cheaper but watch out next summer !

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Old
07-10-2011, 07:22 AM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yianik View Post
There have been so few offer sheets that I dont think weve seen the payback offer sheet. But, with longer contracts the top UFAs wont come up for auction again so wed probably see more offer sheets. It seems that human nature would say GMs would likelier target a GMs team who himself made an offer sheet because whats good for the goose...
The ultimate goal for a GM is to win and offer sheet are part of of the cba !

I don't know why it's considered cheap shot, because
1- The unsigned player has to accept the offer sheet
2- The initial team has a right to match (which they usually do)
3- The team/GM usually had more than enough time to re-sign that said so player
(+) If they are in cap hell, the team/GM did bad contract management and he has to deal with the consequences.

Look at every team that made offer sheet (none of them really felt the backslash) and if the habs offer enough money to retain price and subban next year then their shouldn't have any repercussion in the coming years either...


Last edited by Jeffrey: 07-10-2011 at 07:31 AM.
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Old
07-10-2011, 07:51 AM
  #545
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The problem with offer sheets is what you end up paying out for them. Don't think any GMs are willing to part with four first round picks for one player + major salary. Sure NJ lost one signing Kovalchuuk and people freaked out lol

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Old
07-10-2011, 07:54 AM
  #546
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
The ultimate goal for a GM is to win and offer sheet are part of of the cba !

I don't know why it's considered cheap shot, because
1- The unsigned player has to accept the offer sheet
2- The initial team has a right to match (which they usually do)
3- The team/GM usually had more than enough time to re-sign that said so player
(+) If they are in cap hell, the team/GM did bad contract management and he has to deal with the consequences.

Look at every team that made offer sheet (none of them really felt the backslash) and if the habs offer enough money to retain price and subban next year then their shouldn't have any repercussion in the coming years either...
None ?
I think that Edmonton was critisized for offering offer sheets back then.
And it was not an appropriate use of their assets, really, considering how poorly they played the next seasons.

Vancouver did throw an offer sheet to Backes...but then St.Louis respond by offering one to Bernier.

I'll also say that the players requesting a trade are not a model of correct behaviour towards their organization, teams, and teammates, and the cohesion and the importance of the team spirit are often overlooked.
I would have an hard time being ready to give 100% for a teammate ready to walk out a.s.a.p...

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Old
07-10-2011, 08:00 AM
  #547
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Which teams made daring moves and won?
Reposted, because some points need to be repeated:

- Chicago, Tampa Bay, and Pittsburgh had to tank for 5+ years. The basis of Chicago's Stanley Cup was the loss of Jeremy Roenick in 1996, that's an ugly way to give up your core. Pittsburgh's cup win came from the loss of Kovalev and Jagr. TB's conference final this year from the loss of Richards and Khabibulin.
- Vancouver had to have a tanking season plus a lot of wheeling and dealing to draft the Sedin twins.
- Anaheim gave up multiple 1st round picks for Chris Pronger. Philadelphia then gave up multiple 1st round picks (I think 3 if you include Sbisa) to Anaheim for the same Pronger, who took them to game 7 of the finals in 2010.
- Detroit was able to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 7th and 6th round back when NHL teams were doing a poor job of scouting Europe and Montreal drafted Markov in the 7th round. This is no longer possible.
- Boston, which squeaked through, gave up two 1st round picks for Kaberle (Joe Colborne + 30th overall), and a former 4th overall in Blake Wheeler for Rich Peverley.

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Old
07-10-2011, 08:02 AM
  #548
DAChampion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
You offer a sheet to an RFA, you add a target onto your back as well. I don't know about you guys, but with Subban becoming RFA after next season, I wouldn't want the GMs of other teams looking at the Habs and thinking; "Well, they offered a sheet to Stamkos last year...."
Two solutions:

1) Resign Subban before July 1st.
2) Take the draft picks if you don't think Subban is worth it.

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Old
07-10-2011, 08:05 AM
  #549
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
The first round picks of the next few years are actually pretty important because as many people have mentioned, our core is in their prime now and will be out of or close to the end of their primes in a couple of years.

So the draft picks of the years coming up will have been finishing their development as our core players exit their primes. The next few years are when we focus on getting forwards to replace our core once they are off the team or out of their prime.
I don't think making the playoffs in 2019 should be a priority of Gauthier.

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07-10-2011, 08:16 AM
  #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Reposted, because some points need to be repeated:

- Chicago, Tampa Bay, and Pittsburgh had to tank for 5+ years. The basis of Chicago's Stanley Cup was the loss of Jeremy Roenick in 1996, that's an ugly way to give up your core. Pittsburgh's cup win came from the loss of Kovalev and Jagr. TB's conference final this year from the loss of Richards and Khabibulin.
- Vancouver had to have a tanking season plus a lot of wheeling and dealing to draft the Sedin twins.
- Anaheim gave up multiple 1st round picks for Chris Pronger. Philadelphia then gave up multiple 1st round picks (I think 3 if you include Sbisa) to Anaheim for the same Pronger, who took them to game 7 of the finals in 2010.
- Detroit was able to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 7th and 6th round back when NHL teams were doing a poor job of scouting Europe and Montreal drafted Markov in the 7th round. This is no longer possible.
- Boston, which squeaked through, gave up two 1st round picks for Kaberle (Joe Colborne + 30th overall), and a former 4th overall in Blake Wheeler for Rich Peverley.
Tanking is not a daring move. And look at Florida or the Islanders. They have been tanking for years. Not worth it. Drafting a good player in the 7th round is not a daring move either, it's luck.

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