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Old
07-10-2011, 08:17 AM
  #551
Physical HABuse
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Two solutions:

1) Resign Subban before July 1st.
2) Take the draft picks if you don't think Subban is worth it.
Yes but these sort of offers can disrupt your team and your cap. Someone comes in and signs Subban to an inflated contract. You can't match it cuz you don't have cap space. It's great that you get draft picks but two things happen: 1) it sets you back on your timeline of developing a contender because you are now out a #1 or #2 defenseman and have to find a replacement which may not necessarily be there at the time, and 2) you may not have anywhere near the same luck as you did with Subban in developing those picks you've acquired into talented NHLers, a few years down the road now.

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07-10-2011, 08:37 AM
  #552
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It may not be spoken about(collusion), but most GM's tend not to offer sheet because it just limits their ability to sign/retain their own talent later on as it drives up player values.
I don't think that is the reason for the low number of offer sheets given over the years.

The real reason is economics.

To make an offer sheet that does not get matched essentially requires the acquiring team to pay a UFA level salary.

However, they also have to pay the draft compensation associated with desiring an asset of another organization. This is usually prohibitively expensive.

For example, most Hab fans are happy the Habs sent an offer to Mike Cammalleri and that Calgary "did not match" but chose to let him go. However, it would have been a bad deal if on top of assuming Cammy's $6M salary, we also had to give Calgary 2 1st rounders, a 2nd rounder and a 3rd rounder.

Same with Gionta, the deal would have been bad if we had to give New Jersey a 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder and a 3rd rounder to get him.

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07-10-2011, 09:04 AM
  #553
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So funny to even imagine Stamkos would be traded.....to us. We never would be so lucky. I also laugh to the ones who think offer sheets would be an other idea? Not a chance , we know TB would match it. Giving offer sheets means also doing the dirty work for TB and why do that?
I don't know what a fair offer for Stamkos is by I would hope to keep Subban and Price, and I'm sure a deal would only happen with one of those in it. Also giving 2/3 of your current core for 1 players is real risky if not bad.

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07-10-2011, 09:39 AM
  #554
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So funny to even imagine Stamkos would be traded.....to us. We never would be so lucky. I also laugh to the ones who think offer sheets would be an other idea? Not a chance , we know TB would match it. Giving offer sheets means also doing the dirty work for TB and why do that?
I don't know what a fair offer for Stamkos is by I would hope to keep Subban and Price, and I'm sure a deal would only happen with one of those in it. Also giving 2/3 of your current core for 1 players is real risky if not bad.
Giving offer sheets is a way of weakening your opponent, look what the Sharks did last year to Chicago, they sent an offer sheet to Hjalmarsson, which forced Chicago to match it, then they had to onload players because they were over the cap.

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07-10-2011, 09:57 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
To Tampa
Gomez, Weber + 1st in 2012 , 1st in 2013 and 1st in 2014

To Montreal
Stamkos, 1 ton of nuclear waste


An honest fair deal. We get their thrash and they get ours
That made me laugh...

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07-10-2011, 09:58 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
Giving offer sheets is a way of weakening your opponent, look what the Sharks did last year to Chicago, they sent an offer sheet to Hjalmarsson, which forced Chicago to match it, then they had to onload players because they were over the cap.
I do understand but you didn't understand me. The longer negociation goes on between TB and Stamkos, the better chance they it gets ugly. So let it get ugly between those 2 party.

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07-10-2011, 10:08 AM
  #557
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I do understand but you didn't understand me. The longer negociation goes on between TB and Stamkos, the better chance they it gets ugly. So let it get ugly between those 2 party.
Not necessarily. I think that's pure, typical, HF assumption right there. If it takes longer, then the assumption is that there's problems. That's not true. Yzerman can be trying to complete his team and then play with whatever salary he has left for Stamkos. Maybe he's working on trying to move a player in order to fit under his budget.
Really, nobody knows..

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07-10-2011, 10:24 AM
  #558
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Not necessarily. I think that's pure, typical, HF assumption right there. If it takes longer, then the assumption is that there's problems. That's not true. Yzerman can be trying to complete his team and then play with whatever salary he has left for Stamkos. Maybe he's working on trying to move a player in order to fit under his budget.
Really, nobody knows..
True that.....we have no clue to what really goes on in negotiation. One thing I do know is that during any type of negotiation, the longer it takes....tthe more frustration built. Take it for what it is but I'm sure Stamkos' camp want that contract and the longer it takes to get it, the more and more he feels the pressure. Stevy Y may have moves to make in order to get Stamkos sign but Stamkos wants that contract none the less. Patient only last so long.

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07-10-2011, 10:27 AM
  #559
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Tanking is not a daring move. And look at Florida or the Islanders. They have been tanking for years. Not worth it. Drafting a good player in the 7th round is not a daring move either, it's luck.
People always point at Florida and NYI as proof that "tanking" isn't worth it.

No one has ever claimed that tanking was a surefire way to get a cup.

If you don't draft well, you're gonna fail even if you "tank".

If you don't develop the players you drafted properly, you're also going to fail.

Once you have drafted good players and developped them into stars, you also need to surround them with the appropriate players and manage your cap and your assets properly.

The fact that the NYI and Florida panthers failed miserably at many of those things isn't proof that "tanking" isn't worth it. Just like Nashville, Calgary, Vancouver, Philly, etc aren't proof that not tanking isn't worth it (wow lots of negations there... I've confused even myself). I mean, it's not because those teams haven't won and haven't tanked, that you need to tank. It would be nice if people kept things in perspective and didn't exaggerate one way or the other.

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Old
07-10-2011, 10:40 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Physical HABuse View Post
Yes but these sort of offers can disrupt your team and your cap. Someone comes in and signs Subban to an inflated contract. You can't match it cuz you don't have cap space. It's great that you get draft picks but two things happen: 1) it sets you back on your timeline of developing a contender because you are now out a #1 or #2 defenseman and have to find a replacement which may not necessarily be there at the time, and 2) you may not have anywhere near the same luck as you did with Subban in developing those picks you've acquired into talented NHLers, a few years down the road now.
If the priority is to exploit Subban by paying him less than market value, then that can be done by negotiating a contract before July 1st.

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07-10-2011, 10:50 AM
  #561
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Fun thread.

Would I love to see Stamkos in Mtl YES, but not at the expense of 4 draft picks. We'd be guaranteeing TB would challenge for the cup, maybe not this year but in 3-4 years they'd be so deep in talent they would be a force for years to come.

Look at the leafs/Bruins for the past couple years. The leafs would be a great team in a couple years if they'd just taken their lumps and the high draft picks. Now they've set the bruins up for the immediate future. Yes they have Kessel, but Seguin/Nugent >>>> Kessel.

Stamkos would make us a contender for the next couple years, but we may not be able to afford Price/PK/Stamkos in 3 years and we'd end up in the toilet.

I like the idea of convincing Crosby to sign here in a couple years when he's UFA. I can be patient til then.

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Old
07-10-2011, 10:54 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
Fun thread.

Would I love to see Stamkos in Mtl YES, but not at the expense of 4 draft picks. We'd be guaranteeing TB would challenge for the cup, maybe not this year but in 3-4 years they'd be so deep in talent they would be a force for years to come.

Look at the leafs/Bruins for the past couple years. The leafs would be a great team in a couple years if they'd just taken their lumps and the high draft picks. Now they've set the bruins up for the immediate future. Yes they have Kessel, but Seguin/Nugent >>>> Kessel.

Stamkos would make us a contender for the next couple years, but we may not be able to afford Price/PK/Stamkos in 3 years and we'd end up in the toilet.

I like the idea of convincing Crosby to sign here in a couple years when he's UFA. I can be patient til then.
Not when all of their skilled players come up for contracts and they end up spending a ton.

Also, Tampa doesn,t want 4 first round picks from a team that shouldn't finish any lower than 20th. They'd match

Also, Subban, Price, and Eller are RFAs next year. Now, unless Eller does extremely well, he probably wont be a target, but you can bet the other 2 will be. Montréal isn't in the business (I hope at least) of offer sheets, as they don't want it to backlash.

In a few years, when Edmonton will have Eberle, Hall, RNH, Paarjarvi, etc as RFA I bet Buffalo will tender one of those kids an offer sheet.

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Old
07-10-2011, 10:57 AM
  #563
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The idea seems to be that,

If Montreal management is polite to other teams,

No other GM will bother signing Subban or Price to an RFA offer sheet, even if we're trying to underpay them by a lot.

OK.

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Old
07-10-2011, 10:58 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If the priority is to exploit Subban by paying him less than market value, then that can be done by negotiating a contract before July 1st.
Before or after July 1st, the rules give the Habs an asset value in PK Subban until June 30 2016.

If we lose Andrei Kostityn to a fantastic offer on July 1st 2012, we get nothing, but if PK Subban fetches an $8M contract, we get 4 First rounders, therefore he probably WON'T get an $8M offer and so if he gets an RFA-level offer, Habs can match and still be below full market value.

Subban and his agent know all this too which is why they can sign an offer before July 1st for less money than a full freely-negotiated (UFA) salary.

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07-10-2011, 11:01 AM
  #565
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My whole adult life i have seen this team take the moderate, cautious approach while other teams made daring moves and won...For once i would really like to see this organization swing for the fences and seize the opportunity.
If all it would cost us was 3-4 years’ worth of mid first round picks at best than i say go for it. Even if it doesn’t pan out in the end at the very least the next 4-5 seasons will be exciting... You can always find ways to get a first round pick via trade anyway, a ton of them are swapped every year!
Plekanec,Cammalleri and Gionta are all under contract until the 2013-14 season so we have a small window of opportunity to capitalize on, we have to make the best of it right now.
You talk about moderate cautious approach. Is that how you define the recent summer where the core of the team was totally retooled?

In the cap era those early picks are really important. They give you guys like Price, Subban and Pacioretty who contribute top minutes but who cost relatively little money. Having these kind of contracts allows you in turn to pay for more established players.

You say we have a small window. In 2013-14 Malkin is UFA. Some more of our prospects will have joined the team. We'll have done more trades and signed different UFA's by then.

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07-10-2011, 11:02 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Before or after July 1st, the rules give the Habs an asset value in PK Subban until June 30 2016.

If we lose Andrei Kostityn to a fantastic offer on July 1st 2012, we get nothing, but if PK Subban fetches an $8M contract, we get 4 First rounders, therefore he probably WON'T get an $8M offer and so if he gets an RFA-level offer, Habs can match and still be below full market value.

Subban and his agent know all this too which is why they can sign an offer before July 1st for less money than a full freely-negotiated (UFA) salary.
I'm just ridiculing the notion that we'll be free to underpay Subban and Price if we play nice with the RFAs of other teams.

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07-10-2011, 11:16 AM
  #567
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Eklund
Hemsky on the Move(e4)---Teams involved Montreal, Colorado, NYI, Vancouver

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07-10-2011, 11:25 AM
  #568
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Hell I'd probably trade Subban, Price and Pactioretty for a cup, but not just the chance at a possible cup run. If you trade important future assets like that, close isn't good enough.

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07-10-2011, 11:27 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm just ridiculing the notion that we'll be free to underpay Subban and Price if we play nice with the RFAs of other teams.
Price is arbitration elligible this time around, so no.

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07-10-2011, 11:57 AM
  #570
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Eklund
Hemsky on the Move(e4)---Teams involved Montreal, Colorado, NYI, Vancouver
AK 46 going the other way???

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07-10-2011, 11:59 AM
  #571
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AK 46 going the other way???
That's the only way I see it working logically.

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07-10-2011, 12:05 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
People always point at Florida and NYI as proof that "tanking" isn't worth it.

No one has ever claimed that tanking was a surefire way to get a cup.

If you don't draft well, you're gonna fail even if you "tank".

If you don't develop the players you drafted properly, you're also going to fail.

Once you have drafted good players and developped them into stars, you also need to surround them with the appropriate players and manage your cap and your assets properly.

The fact that the NYI and Florida panthers failed miserably at many of those things isn't proof that "tanking" isn't worth it. Just like Nashville, Calgary, Vancouver, Philly, etc aren't proof that not tanking isn't worth it (wow lots of negations there... I've confused even myself). I mean, it's not because those teams haven't won and haven't tanked, that you need to tank. It would be nice if people kept things in perspective and didn't exaggerate one way or the other.
Well based on what I read on this forum, Habs are terrible at drafting in the first round. Also these teams you named never tanked, they didn't trade away all their assets to have the first pick overall. Philly had one bad season and drafted VanRiemsdyk but that summer they signed Briere and they came back. They never really had any intention of losing for some years.

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:14 PM
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's the only way I see it working logically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
AK 46 going the other way???
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Originally Posted by mikeysvette View Post
Eklund
Hemsky on the Move(e4)---Teams involved Montreal, Colorado, NYI, Vancouver
Its Eklund, of all the non-credible people, hes probably the worst to have faith in.

We have to outbid those teams if thats the case, we give AK46, but who could Colorado, NYI and Vancouver give? Mason Raymond, Jordan Schroeder, Josh Bailey, Okposo, Colorado could give picks, not sure who from that side of the woods is tradable.

Point is in terms of potential trading assets, I think we are out gunned.

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07-10-2011, 12:20 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Yarfangor View Post
Its Eklund, of all the non-credible people, hes probably the worst to have faith in.

We have to outbid those teams if thats the case, we give AK46, but who could Colorado, NYI and Vancouver give? Mason Raymond, Jordan Schroeder, Josh Bailey, Okposo, Colorado could give picks, not sure who from that side of the woods is tradable.

Point is in terms of potential trading assets, I think we are out gunned.
Schroeder is a bust IMO, we could outbid if necessary I think AK 46 is a servicable top 6er and then you could give up someone like Kristo

Getting Hemsky though as a set up man, drool

Hemsky-Pleks-Cammy
Gionta-Gomez-Cole
Patches-Eller-Desharnais

Or

Gionta-Gomez-Patches
Cole-Eller-Desharnais


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07-10-2011, 12:26 PM
  #575
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Originally Posted by subbanged View Post
Schroeder is a bust IMO, we could outbid if necessary I think AK 46 is a servicable top 6er and then you could give up someone like Kristo

Getting Hemsky though as a set up man, drool

Hemsky-Pleks-Cammy
Gionta-Gomez-Cole
Patches-Eller-Desharnais

Or

Gionta-Gomez-Patches
Cole-Eller-Desharnais
not a fan of giving up Kristo in almost every trade proposal. And if they wanted Isles could out bid us easy by offering Okposo, Bailey or a mix of one with a prospect or pick. Do you really wanna trade one of our best prospects, and possibly alot more for Hemsky? He's great but I'm not looking to fill one hole by making another.

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