While I think it would be great for True North to bring a WHL team to Winnipeg, I agree with a few of the other posters here that they will wait a period of 3 - 5 years - when season ticket renewals are up - before pursuing a franchise. If there is still a significant waiting list for Jets tickets - like the current one at 8,000 - I would guess True North would leverage the continued interest in hockey in this market by bringing in a WHL team.
After all, you can't make money off people sitting on a list when there isn't any other options, at least hockeywise, is there?? A second team in Winnipeg will not only whet the appetites of those on the Jets' waiting list but will open up live hockey as an entertainment option to lower and middle income families, high school and university students, and in general, people who find NHL hockey to be too expensive as an entertainment option.
There are a couple myths in this thread that should be dispelled. Winnipeg is no longer the 3rd busiest arena in Canada and hasn't been for some time. Back in 2009, Winnipeg dropped to the 6th busiest venue in Canada behind the Bell Center, the ACC, Scotiabank Place, Rexall Place and General Motors Place. Mts Center was ranked 50th in the world, still an impressive number. In comparison to Edmonton, whose Rexall Place ranked 23rd in the World and drew 406 453 persons for non-sporting events, the MTS Center drew 260 956 persons.
In 2010, the MTS Center ranked 60th Worldwide and 7th in Canada with 196 931 persons. For comparison's sake, Edmonton finished 31st worldwide and 3rd in Canada with 322 114 persons.
No numbers released by PollStar for 2011 but I suspect they will look similar
Why do I bring up Edmonton?? Well, their arena manages to consistently be one of the busiest venues in the world and the third busiest in Canada despite the fact they lose 37 concert dates each year to WHL hockey. If they can manage this why can't Winnipeg??
Secondly, WHL teams in Calgary and Edmonton tend to schedule home games during weekdays thereby leaving weekends open not only to the NHL, but also to various entertainment acts.
Thirdly, the bulk of the WHL season -October to MArch - occurs when the overall concert tour industry is at a low ebb, thus ensuring minimal interference between the two enitities when booking dates at arena venues. The majority of the big concert acts tour from April to October when both the NHL and WHL are on hiatus, for the most part.
Again, I would love to see the WHL back in the 'Peg and the only blockade I see is a drop in demand for Jets tickets, not scheduling difficulties with the NHL and concert acts.
I've heard this same thing for about 5 years now, from a person who works in major city contracts. It's been thrown around numerous times but has never come to fruition.
this is true i was looking at the Wheat Kings schedule and most of there games are Friday and Saturday....maybe because Brandon is so far west most teams have to play them on the weekends?
my guess is that true north will let at least a couple of rounds of season ticket renewals happen, allowing them to evaluate the depth of the post honeymoon market, before they look to expand into it.
winnipeg is not edmonton or calgary....those cities are 50% larger and substantially wealthier.
While I think it would be great for True North to bring a WHL team to Winnipeg, I agree with a few of the other posters here that they will wait a period of 3 - 5 years - when season ticket renewals are up - before pursuing a franchise. If there is still a significant waiting list for Jets tickets - like the current one at 8,000 - I would guess True North would leverage the continued interest in hockey in this market by bringing in a WHL team.
After all, you can't make money off people sitting on a list when there isn't any other options, at least hockeywise, is there?? A second team in Winnipeg will not only whet the appetites of those on the Jets' waiting list but will open up live hockey as an entertainment option to lower and middle income families, high school and university students, and in general, people who find NHL hockey to be too expensive as an entertainment option.
There are a couple myths in this thread that should be dispelled. Winnipeg is no longer the 3rd busiest arena in Canada and hasn't been for some time. Back in 2009, Winnipeg dropped to the 6th busiest venue in Canada behind the Bell Center, the ACC, Scotiabank Place, Rexall Place and General Motors Place. Mts Center was ranked 50th in the world, still an impressive number. In comparison to Edmonton, whose Rexall Place ranked 23rd in the World and drew 406 453 persons for non-sporting events, the MTS Center drew 260 956 persons.
In 2010, the MTS Center ranked 60th Worldwide and 7th in Canada with 196 931 persons. For comparison's sake, Edmonton finished 31st worldwide and 3rd in Canada with 322 114 persons.
No numbers released by PollStar for 2011 but I suspect they will look similar
Why do I bring up Edmonton?? Well, their arena manages to consistently be one of the busiest venues in the world and the third busiest in Canada despite the fact they lose 37 concert dates each year to WHL hockey. If they can manage this why can't Winnipeg??
Secondly, WHL teams in Calgary and Edmonton tend to schedule home games during weekdays thereby leaving weekends open not only to the NHL, but also to various entertainment acts.
Thirdly, the bulk of the WHL season -October to MArch - occurs when the overall concert tour industry is at a low ebb, thus ensuring minimal interference between the two enitities when booking dates at arena venues. The majority of the big concert acts tour from April to October when both the NHL and WHL are on hiatus, for the most part.
Again, I would love to see the WHL back in the 'Peg and the only blockade I see is a drop in demand for Jets tickets, not scheduling difficulties with the NHL and concert acts.
This is a good post and made me rethink this as a viable option as far as squeezing in the dates around concerts but I am still sceptical it will happen and if it does I agree with the bulk of the posters who say 3 to 5 years out at a minimum.
I talked to a friend who is in ownership in the WHL and asked him back of the napkin if TNSE drew 5000 fans a game without playoffs what would they make all in and he felt they would be in and around $500,000 in profit.
That is Tim Stapleton's contract value and you have to ask yourself is it really worth the effort?
I do like that it would bring more people into the SHED and even though it would be family based I can tell you most of the establishments filled up around the MTS centre on Moose nights even though the fills were later and the guest check averages were lower it still made for busier nights.
I hope this link works as it shows the average attendance of WHL teams in 2010-11
Although Vancouver and Calgary drew very well and a couple of other teams were solid things fell off pretty fast after that and you can see even a good market like Edmonton only drew 4000 fans a night so this would not be a slam dunk by any means and would probably require real work. You have to ask yourself past the return on investment what is the return on attention this would take?
Ok so my cut and paste skills aren't great. Go over to the colum were it says 4676 for Brandon and that was there average attendance and follow that down and it will show you the averages
This is a good post and made me rethink this as a viable option as far as squeezing in the dates around concerts but I am still sceptical it will happen and if it does I agree with the bulk of the posters who say 3 to 5 years out at a minimum.
I talked to a friend who is in ownership in the WHL and asked him back of the napkin if TNSE drew 5000 fans a game without playoffs what would they make all in and he felt they would be in and around $500,000 in profit.
That is Tim Stapleton's contract value and you have to ask yourself is it really worth the effort?
I do like that it would bring more people into the SHED and even though it would be family based I can tell you most of the establishments filled up around the MTS centre on Moose nights even though the fills were later and the guest check averages were lower it still made for busier nights.
I hope this link works as it shows the average attendance of WHL teams in 2010-11
Although Vancouver and Calgary drew very well and a couple of other teams were solid things fell off pretty fast after that and you can see even a good market like Edmonton only drew 4000 fans a night so this would not be a slam dunk by any means and would probably require real work. You have to ask yourself past the return on investment what is the return on attention this would take?
Very imformative thank you! Maybe TNSE could steal 5 games from Brandon then? Maybe that is more realistic???
There are a couple myths in this thread that should be dispelled. Winnipeg is no longer the 3rd busiest arena in Canada and hasn't been for some time. Back in 2009, Winnipeg dropped to the 6th busiest venue in Canada behind the Bell Center, the ACC, Scotiabank Place, Rexall Place and General Motors Place. Mts Center was ranked 50th in the world, still an impressive number. In comparison to Edmonton, whose Rexall Place ranked 23rd in the World and drew 406 453 persons for non-sporting events, the MTS Center drew 260 956 persons.
In 2010, the MTS Center ranked 60th Worldwide and 7th in Canada with 196 931 persons. For comparison's sake, Edmonton finished 31st worldwide and 3rd in Canada with 322 114 persons.
No numbers released by PollStar for 2011 but I suspect they will look similar
Why do I bring up Edmonton?? Well, their arena manages to consistently be one of the busiest venues in the world and the third busiest in Canada despite the fact they lose 37 concert dates each year to WHL hockey. If they can manage this why can't Winnipeg??
Secondly, WHL teams in Calgary and Edmonton tend to schedule home games during weekdays thereby leaving weekends open not only to the NHL, but also to various entertainment acts.
Thirdly, the bulk of the WHL season -October to MArch - occurs when the overall concert tour industry is at a low ebb, thus ensuring minimal interference between the two enitities when booking dates at arena venues. The majority of the big concert acts tour from April to October when both the NHL and WHL are on hiatus, for the most part.
Again, I would love to see the WHL back in the 'Peg and the only blockade I see is a drop in demand for Jets tickets, not scheduling difficulties with the NHL and concert acts.
The myths in this thread are being spread by yourself.
The difference between Edmonton and Winnipeg as venues is that the Edmonton venue is not owned by the NHL team while Winnipeg is. The key beneficiaries from any concerts or trade shows in Edmonton are Northlands (similar to the former Winnipeg Enterprises Corporation) and the local promoters; in Winnipeg the building is owned, run, and promoted via TNSE. They garner every dollar from MTS Centre; in Edmonton the Oilers do not from their venue.
The value of open arena dates to the NHL team is much greater in Winnipeg as such. Frankly speaking, the monies culled from a single Roger Waters date alone for example is likely worth more to TNSE than would be a quarter season or more of home WHL dates.
Weekend open dates in fact are even more valuable to MTS for concerts as more people have available free time on weekends to attend. Others have touched on it, but the majority of CHL games are scheduled on the weekends for a reason; many on the rosters are high school aged and weekend games minimize interference with schooling while traveling.
Anyone expecting TNSE to schedule WHL hockey at the MTS Centre at the expense of concert promotion is being willfully naive in their expectations.
It would be interesting if True North and the WHL came to an agreement to have a team in Winnipeg. At the same time I think I would not spend money on supporting a WHL team when I would rather use all my recreation funds to go to a Jets game and watch the big leagues. I know alot of my friends would feel the same way.
But if they can get one...more power to true north but from a business stand point I think concerts and other events would bring them way more profit if they are planning on using the MTS center.
I'd rather just see the Wheat Kings play a few games at MTS every year.
That is a much more plausible scenario versus a full season home team in that TNSE could likely afford to book a few dates each year, dates that wouldn't come at the greater expense of available concert promotion dates.
Im pretty sure the only reason they play games during the weekend is too get better attendance
There are definite kinks that would need too be worked out but this has been a secondary dream for me for a while and now that we have the Jets back it moves up the list.
Also the lack of cheap hockey would help since people were so used too paying less too see the moose and now dont get too go too as many games. The WHL is some of the Best hockey in the world and I think its worth it
Semi OT, though somewhat related to the prospects of getting a WHL team, I never quite understood why the old arena was demolished. Unlike our crumbling stadium, I don't remember hearing any report of structural damage or unsoundness. That lot has sat vacant for over 5 years now, and only recently have there been set plans to redevelop.
Why couldn't they (True North or another local business) have just retrofitted the building? You could have turned part of it into retail/shopping (IIRC, that's what they did with MLG and Pacific Coliseum), and scaled it down to a 10K seat arena/concert venue. That probably would have been most optimal for a WHL team.
Not saying there's any business merit to this, mind you. Just a pie in the sky thought.
Just out of curiosity, is it possible to schedule the games at the MTS center, but if a event were to come up move the one conflicting game to the ICEplex or somewhere else?
MTS would still get the revenue for the concert or whatever and the only down-side would be fewer in attendance at the WHL game.
Semi OT, though somewhat related to the prospects of getting a WHL team, I never quite understood why the old arena was demolished. Unlike our crumbling stadium, I don't remember hearing any report of structural damage or unsoundness. That lot has sat vacant for over 5 years now, and only recently have there been set plans to redevelop.
Why couldn't they (True North or another local business) have just retrofitted the building? You could have turned part of it into retail/shopping (IIRC, that's what they did with MLG and Pacific Coliseum), and scaled it down to a 10K seat arena/concert venue. That probably would have been most optimal for a WHL team.
Not saying there's any business merit to this, mind you. Just a pie in the sky thought.
IIRC part of the agreement TNSE reached with the city when building the MTS Centre was that the old arena would be demolished. The theory being that to succeed the MTS centre would need to be the only viable option for concerts of that size coming to town. They didn't want another venue competing for business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsyl84
Just out of curiosity, is it possible to schedule the games at the MTS center, but if a event were to come up move the one conflicting game to the ICEplex or somewhere else?
MTS would still get the revenue for the concert or whatever and the only down-side would be fewer in attendance at the WHL game.
Not sure that would be feasable. The ice plex holds about 1500 people. You'd have to tell thousands of people that they can no longer come to teh game they had tickets too. Really wouldn't work.
IIRC part of the agreement TNSE reached with the city when building the MTS Centre was that the old arena would be demolished. The theory being that to succeed the MTS centre would need to be the only viable option for concerts of that size coming to town. They didn't want another venue competing for business.
This is what I assumed as well. Guess I'm just wondering, would it not have made sense for TNSE to purchase the Winnipeg Arena (Enterprises still had full control of the Arena right up until its demolition, correct?), and then have them "mothball" it for a period of time, with the intention of eventually remodelling it?
It seems like they could have perhaps benefitted from having a mid-size venue for sports and concerts.
I recall the arguments pre-Jets 2.0 where peeps claimed comparing Edmonton and Calgary (and Ottawa) to Winnipeg as unreasonable because the cities were different sizes. I think it is equally invalid in this discussion as it was then.
It has been mentioned that TNSE would not sacrifice more profitable events for junior hockey. Totally agree. However, there is much capacity at the MTSC.
The key decision-maker, IMHO, is adding a WHL team to the party might be nothing more than using that spare capacity making the arena more profitable. Even if a WHL team broke even, the arena would profit.
A more profitable arena takes some of the pressure off TNSE and by extension, the Jets.
I also believe that the WHL can be sold to a slightly different demographic that has difficulty accessing the Jets. Much more kid orientated and budget conscious crowds. Certain advertisers might also find WHL more affordable.
I recall the arguments pre-Jets 2.0 where peeps claimed comparing Edmonton and Calgary (and Ottawa) to Winnipeg as unreasonable because the cities were different sizes. I think it is equally invalid in this discussion as it was then.
It has been mentioned that TNSE would not sacrifice more profitable events for junior hockey. Totally agree. However, there is much capacity at the MTSC.
The key decision-maker, IMHO, is adding a WHL team to the party might be nothing more than using that spare capacity making the arena more profitable. Even if a WHL team broke even, the arena would profit.
A more profitable arena takes some of the pressure off TNSE and by extension, the Jets.
I also believe that the WHL can be sold to a slightly different demographic that has difficulty accessing the Jets. Much more kid orientated and budget conscious crowds. Certain advertisers might also find WHL more affordable.
