i see Richards signed on July 4th officially at Dolans. Avery was there, lol............I think its safe to say Avery gets a shot at playing some minutes this yr.
People are calling him effective. Effective players don't go offsides more than all the rest of his teammates. They don't implode in big playoff spots like he did against Washington. They don't disappear for long periods of time.
About once every five or ten games he plays really well and it makes you wonder where that player is the rest of the time. Usually fans despise inconsistency and love guys who bring it every night, like Callahan. Yet, some fans will overlook his consistently inconsistent play and continue to live with an imaginary, romantic view of Avery, becaue they like his "persona".
Again I'll state that I could care less about Avery staying or going...but Torts imploded in the series against the Caps that you refer to as well...I personally like Torts and gave him a pass...perhaps Avery should get the same pass, one could argue that losing the HC for a playoff game is more important...just MHO
He most definitely won't be back even if he has a great season. Not sure he should considering the emergence of some or all of the following left wings by next year: Wolski, Zuccarello, Hagelin and Kreider, in addition to Dubinsky and Rupp already having two of the four LW spots locked up.
Can we at least let these guys along with Avery earn/prove they deserve a spot before we hand one to them?
It's similar to how I felt about Purinton. He was one of the worst dmen to ever play here but was adored by many for reasons other than his skills. Before you misinterpret, I am not saying Avery is anywhere as bad as Purinton was.
Fans in all sports are often swayed by sizzle rather than meat. Avery is all sizzle and very little meat.
But me and you have argued about this a million times and the biggest misconception from your point of view is you think that anyone who supports Avery is ridiculous for some reason. As if there's nothing positive that he brings. Someone like me will argue that with regular, consistent minutes, Avery is an effective third line player who should pot you around 10 goals and around 30 points.
If you actually watch his style of play, and recognize his attributes, I don't understand why it would be hard to understand why he has supporters and people think he can be effective in his role, if given that opportunity.
It's also mind boggling how it's so hard to recognize the road blocks Avery faces on a nightly basis, from his coach, to his altered role, to limited minutes, to the referees. Whether or not that's relevant to people like you doesn't change the reality of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
People are calling him effective. Effective players don't go offsides more than all the rest of his teammates. They don't implode in big playoff spots like he did against Washington. They don't disappear for long periods of time.
About once every five or ten games he plays really well and it makes you wonder where that player is the rest of the time. Usually fans despise inconsistency and love guys who bring it every night, like Callahan. Yet, some fans will overlook his consistently inconsistent play and continue to live with an imaginary, romantic view of Avery, becaue they like his "persona".
Who was the best player on the ice in Game 7 again? Remind me, I forgot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
Let's not forget that the refs' attitude towards him didn't come out of thin air. He brought it upon himself.
I don't dispute this, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
If you're talking about scrums after the whistle and his getting a penalty for a typical shove or face wash then yes, I agree with you. Sean knows he's going to get called for that kind of stuff and be held to a different standard. When he does that and gets called it pisses me off because he KNOWS he has to be extra careful.
Where your comment doesn't hold water is when the game is actually being played. When he forechecks hard and gets called for boarding, when he barely touches a player and gets called for roughing, when he gets physically tossed around, tripped, abused, and nothing is called because he's Sean Avery, there is no justification for that.
The referees are paid to officiate the game. Regardless if he's earned some sort of reputation they owe it to the fans of the league to call the game down the middle.
Can we at least let these guys along with Avery earn/prove they deserve a spot before we hand one to them?
Who said any of them are getting a spot handed to them? The point was simply that Avery will have some young guys challenging him for a roster spot, regardless of how he plays. The organization has no shortage of 3rd line talents in the pipe line...and as such it's only natural to assume that a least a couple of them will be ready to make the team sooner or later.
But me and you have argued about this a million times and the biggest misconception from your point of view is you think that anyone who supports Avery is ridiculous for some reason. As if there's nothing positive that he brings. Someone like me will argue that with regular, consistent minutes, Avery is an effective third line player who should pot you around 10 goals and around 30 points.
If you actually watch his style of play, and recognize his attributes, I don't understand why it would be hard to understand why he has supporters and people think he can be effective in his role, if given that opportunity.
It's also mind boggling how it's so hard to recognize the road blocks Avery faces on a nightly basis, from his coach, to his altered role, to limited minutes, to the referees. Whether or not that's relevant to people like you doesn't change the reality of it.
Who was the best player on the ice in Game 7 again? Remind me, I forgot.
I don't dispute this, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
If you're talking about scrums after the whistle and his getting a penalty for a typical shove or face wash then yes, I agree with you. Sean knows he's going to get called for that kind of stuff and be held to a different standard. When he does that and gets called it pisses me off because he KNOWS he has to be extra careful.
Where your comment doesn't hold water is when the game is actually being played. When he forechecks hard and gets called for boarding, when he barely touches a player and gets called for roughing, when he gets physically tossed around, tripped, abused, and nothing is called because he's Sean Avery, there is no justification for that.
The referees are paid to officiate the game. Regardless if he's earned some sort of reputation they owe it to the fans of the league to call the game down the middle.
And my biggest problem with folks who support Avery is that they won't address the fact that he is wildly inconsistent. Blaming the coach or the refs or league is utter ********.
If he played close to as well as he did in his best games he would be getting solid minutes every game. The fault for his play is 100% his fault, not all of these external forces his supporters constantly whine about.
At some point you are responsible for your own body of work. People who always whine that if this or if that are treating people like Avery as children. This absolute nonsense that if given the right amount of minutes we would get great results is also pure ********. You get the ice time you deserve. Play well, get more ice time. Play poorly, get less ice time.
Who said any of them are getting a spot handed to them? The point was simply that Avery will have some young guys challenging him for a roster spot, regardless of how he plays. The organization has no shortage of 3rd line talents in the pipe line...and as such it's only natural to assume that a least a couple of them will be ready to make the team sooner or later.
This is what I responded to:
He most definitely won't be back even if he has a great season. Not sure he should considering the emergence of some or all of the following left wings by next year: Wolski, Zuccarello, Hagelin and Kreider,
The poster was stating that even if Avery had a great season he wouldn't be back because of the players who MIGHT emerge
to say other factors like ice time is ******** is incorrect. give anybody the minutes that avery got last year and anybody would play like ****. he cant get anything going if he isnt out there consistantly. putting him with gaborik for 2 games then putting him on the 4th line, then scratching him doesnt help solve the problem. its a large part of it.
to say other factors like ice time is ******** is incorrect. give anybody the minutes that avery got last year and anybody would play like ****. he cant get anything going if he isnt out there consistantly. putting him with gaborik for 2 games then putting him on the 4th line, then scratching him doesnt help solve the problem. its a large part of it.
Why did Avery get less minutes if not because of his own poor play?
The only possibility besides he deserved what he got is that Tortorella is more concerned about hurting Avery than helping the Rangers. If you believe that you are insane. If you don't believe that, please give another possibility for reduced time other than that was what was deserved.
Yet to hear anyone answer this directly.
Stop complaining and explain it in a way that makes sense because it's getting old hearing complaints from his fans without explaining the "truth".
Why did Avery get less minutes if not because of his own poor play?
The only possibility besides he deserved what he got is that Tortorella is more concerned about hurting Avery than helping the Rangers. If you believe that you are insane. If you don't believe that, please give another possibility for reduced time other than that was what was deserved.
Yet to hear anyone answer this directly.
Stop complaining and explain it in a way that makes sense because it's getting old hearing complaints from his fans without explaining the "truth".
Whose complaining? Answer this. Does a player deserve to be scratched for several games when they take a meaningless penalty with a 4 goal lead? Oh yea... in the 3rd period.
You tell me how he gets the correct ice time he deserves, when horrible decisions like the one above are made.
If we are handing out minutes based on quality of play, I guess gaborik shouldn't of had 1 shift last season. Overall I would say his season was worse than averys. Especially since the team relies on his production.
Last edited by chip chipperson*: 07-10-2011 at 07:58 PM.
i want to see how he plays with richards and gaborik on the top line. him and fedotenko are the top guys i see taking that spot. if avery doesn't get it i can see them scratching him and this being his final season here.
Whose complaining? Answer this. Does a player deserve to be scratched for several games when they take a meaningless penalty with a 4 goal lead? Oh yea... in the 3rd period.
You tell me how he gets the correct ice time he deserves, when horrible decisions like the one above are made.
If we are handing out minutes based on quality of play, I guess gaborik shouldn't of had 1 shift last season. Overall I would say his season was worse than averys. Especially since the team relies on his production.
Unwittingly, you answered my question.
You believe that Torts would rather hurt Avery and the team than help the team. To me that is an insane belief.
You believe that Torts would rather hurt Avery and the team than help the team. To me that is an insane belief.
stupidly, you misunderstood what i said.
what it comes down to, is that torts doesnt like him. period. and you and others think this has nothing to do with his ****** season. its like saying a guy who scores 100 goals didnt get help from his linemates.
yes there were times he didnt play well, then there were times he was the best ranger on the ice. do you think scratching him for several games in a row for a meaningless penalty in the 3rd period with a 4 goal lead was the correct decision?
no i dont think torts would hurt the team stupid. but if avery does the slightest thing to piss him off the penalty is scratching him. that is the wrong way to coach.
Last edited by chip chipperson*: 07-11-2011 at 07:14 AM.
You believe that Torts would rather hurt Avery and the team than help the team. To me that is an insane belief.
It's not about Torts wanting to hurt Avery rather than help the team. You should really stop putting words in peoples' mouths in an effort to discredit their opinion.
If you truly believe that Avery was treated the exact same way as any other player on the Rangers roster last year, to ME, that is an insane belief. If you truly believe that he was given the same amount of slack and opportunity as anyone else on the team, I guess we just saw things differently.
And for the record, I'm not some huge Avery supporter. I've never seen someone go offsides so much as Avery did last season. I don't know what his problem was, but it is something that the coaching staff needs to try and work with him on this year.
All that I'm saying is that Avery can be a contributing member on this team. No other player, maybe with the exception of EC, had a less-defined role than Avery did last year. He was everything from 1st liner with Gaborik, to 4th liner, to healthy scratch. He was one of our points leaders early on in the season, then gets bounced around and scratched for no apparent reason. Maybe he was in a small slump and took a stupid penalty or two, but almost noone else would have gotten the treatment that he did. Avery is one of the most talented bottom-6 guys we have, even with all his baggage. He should, in my opinion, be given a real shot at a consistent role on the team this year. Especially in a contract year, possibly fighting to just stay in the league, we could reap the benefits of a focused and determined Sean Avery.
This whole Torts having Avery on a leash thing makes me laugh. It's such a lame excuse. Avery gets less minutes because his consistency sucks. And how the hell can one guy be off sides so often?
Avery is most effective when he skates hard, plays the body, crowds the net and plays in your face. If he did this every game instead of every 4 he'd get more minutes.
For the record, I'm no Avery hater. I like the guy and even most of his antics. Hell, I'm a 40 year old kid. What I do hate however, are those glasses.
what it comes down to, is that torts doesnt like him. period. and you and others think this has nothing to do with his ****** season. its like saying a guy who scores 100 goals didnt get help from his linemates.
yes there were times he didnt play well, then there were times he was the best ranger on the ice. do you think scratching him for several games in a row for a meaningless penalty in the 3rd period with a 4 goal lead was the correct decision?
no i dont think torts would hurt the team stupid. but if avery does the slightest thing to piss him off the penalty is scratching him. that is the wrong way to coach.
I do not mind when someone calls me stupid after expressing that the coach is doing something that hurts his own team and his chances of retaining his job.
I do not mind when someone calls me stupid after expressing that the coach is doing something that hurts his own team and his chances of retaining his job.
It's not about Torts wanting to hurt Avery rather than help the team. You should really stop putting words in peoples' mouths in an effort to discredit their opinion.
If you truly believe that Avery was treated the exact same way as any other player on the Rangers roster last year, to ME, that is an insane belief. If you truly believe that he was given the same amount of slack and opportunity as anyone else on the team, I guess we just saw things differently.
And for the record, I'm not some huge Avery supporter. I've never seen someone go offsides so much as Avery did last season. I don't know what his problem was, but it is something that the coaching staff needs to try and work with him on this year.
All that I'm saying is that Avery can be a contributing member on this team. No other player, maybe with the exception of EC, had a less-defined role than Avery did last year. He was everything from 1st liner with Gaborik, to 4th liner, to healthy scratch. He was one of our points leaders early on in the season, then gets bounced around and scratched for no apparent reason. Maybe he was in a small slump and took a stupid penalty or two, but almost noone else would have gotten the treatment that he did. Avery is one of the most talented bottom-6 guys we have, even with all his baggage. He should, in my opinion, be given a real shot at a consistent role on the team this year. Especially in a contract year, possibly fighting to just stay in the league, we could reap the benefits of a focused and determined Sean Avery.
Do you understand that a coach puts out the players he feels give him the best chance of winning. If Avery is treated differently by refs, coach, and league, is it possible that the player is the problem?
If Torts thught Avery would help more than the players that dressed, he would dress. To then complain that if Avery dressed more he would have played better is backwards logic.
The only other explanation for not playing him more points to off ice issues. Either way the fault for Avery' reduced role remains the sole property of the player.
Do you understand that a coach puts out the players he feels give him the best chance of winning. If Avery is treated differently by refs, coach, and league, is it possible that the player is the problem?
If Torts thught Avery would help more than the players that dressed, he would dress. To then complain that if Avery dressed more he would have played better is backwards logic.
The only other explanation for not playing him more points to off ice issues. Either way the fault for Avery' reduced role remains the sole property of the player.
It's not backwards logic to question the coach's decision. Some people feel that Avery helps more that the players that dress when he is a scratch. There's no contradiction here, just a disagreement with the decision made by Torts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
At least you are honest enough to say that Torts is a total moron. That is your belief, then.
It doesn't address why Avery is the one in his crosshairs.
Aaaand once again, you resort to hyperbole and putting words in the mouths of others.
Did I say he's a total moron? My belief that he may be mistaken in this particular instance--and therefore hurting the team and his job performance to some degree--is hardly akin to calling the guy a moron.
Torts hated Avery before he even came to New York. Remember when as an analyst he said that he'd never allow Sean Avery on his team? I don't think it's that implausible to believe that Tortorella would treat Avery differently than the other players, considering his publicly stated distaste for the player.
Now, Avery had done little to force his way into the lineup and change Torts' opinion of him (what I believe to be Torts' opinion of him at least), but that doesn't mean that it's unreasonable to feel a double standard is in place.
And my biggest problem with folks who support Avery is that they won't address the fact that he is wildly inconsistent. Blaming the coach or the refs or league is utter ********.
If he played close to as well as he did in his best games he would be getting solid minutes every game. The fault for his play is 100% his fault, not all of these external forces his supporters constantly whine about.
At some point you are responsible for your own body of work. People who always whine that if this or if that are treating people like Avery as children. This absolute nonsense that if given the right amount of minutes we would get great results is also pure ********. You get the ice time you deserve. Play well, get more ice time. Play poorly, get less ice time.
I think most of us address the fact that he's wildly inconsistent. What bothers you to no end is that we disagree on the reasons for his inconsistency and actually believe that if utilized more appropriately he'd be a very capable player on the roster.
You say "blaming the league or coach is bs..." which we've heard from you and others a hundred thousand times. Again, that's your opinion but there are a lot of us with eyes who disagree. If you think that Sean Avery is treated the same way by the league, officials, and his coach, as everyone else, then you're just not paying attention. There's really no other way to say that. Whether or not you want to acknowledge that is up to you, and clearly you don't. But again, just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't make it any less of reality.
To answer the last part, have you really not noticed that when Avery is playing great in stretches, he always ends up taking a penalty on a play that's usually not really a penalty? He'll be taking the body, forechecking, getting to the net and wreaking havoc. Then the officials will call him for some ticky tack goalie interference, or boarding call. Then that will be it for him. His ice time immediately gets limited and his role completely changed once again. Torts' leash with Sean is so short it's incredible. If you watch the games, it's not that difficult to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
Why did Avery get less minutes if not because of his own poor play?
The only possibility besides he deserved what he got is that Tortorella is more concerned about hurting Avery than helping the Rangers. If you believe that you are insane. If you don't believe that, please give another possibility for reduced time other than that was what was deserved.
Yet to hear anyone answer this directly.
Stop complaining and explain it in a way that makes sense because it's getting old hearing complaints from his fans without explaining the "truth".
I've actually addressed this several times and did so in my long response on the other page in this thread.
I even stated that while in the past I firmly believed that there was a strong dislike from Torts to Sean, I've slowly changed on that. I still don't think he likes Sean, but I think what it comes down to is the fact that Torts ic clearly aware of the egregiouis calls that are made on Avery on a consistent basis. Where you're saying Torts would rather hurt Avery instead of help the team, I believe he thinks he's helping the team by hurting Avery.
When Avery plays three solid games and then gets called for some BS, he thinks that's going to be the beginning of the end. So before Sean's emotions get the best of him or whatever logic Torts has, he diminishes his role so Sean has less of a chance of hurting the team that way.
It's all about perspective on the matter obviously, but I'm just not sure why it's so difficult for you to grasp the other side of it, or why it's become such an obsession for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garv23
This whole Torts having Avery on a leash thing makes me laugh. It's such a lame excuse. Avery gets less minutes because his consistency sucks. And how the hell can one guy be off sides so often?
Avery is most effective when he skates hard, plays the body, crowds the net and plays in your face. If he did this every game instead of every 4 he'd get more minutes.
For the record, I'm no Avery hater. I like the guy and even most of his antics. Hell, I'm a 40 year old kid. What I do hate however, are those glasses.
Avery is most effective when he skates hard, plays the body, crowds the net, and plays in your face. If he did this every game instead of every 4 he'd get more minutes........................................... .......................And when he does play that way and gets called for boarding, roughing, goalie interference, or some other borderline nonsense that no one else would get called for and instantaneously has his minutes and role reduced, that has nothing to do with Torts and his leash and the way he utilizes him?
Interesting.
Posts like this are always funny to me because it makes you question if people really watch the games, or if it's just on in the background while they're typing on this message board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
Do you understand that a coach puts out the players he feels give him the best chance of winning. If Avery is treated differently by refs, coach, and league, is it possible that the player is the problem?
If Torts thught Avery would help more than the players that dressed, he would dress. To then complain that if Avery dressed more he would have played better is backwards logic.
The only other explanation for not playing him more points to off ice issues. Either way the fault for Avery' reduced role remains the sole property of the player.
No. Because again, anyone with eyes can see the blatant bias officials have for Avery, and have had for a while now. The league absolutely loathes him, and we all know have no interest in protecting him as a player.
The coach treats the player differently because he understands that he's treated differently by the league and officials, and as a member of that coach's team he can't have that player's actions hurting his team, even if those actions aren't reprehensible and it's complete BS.
I don't think Torts is stupid. He knows that Sean is an effective player. He also knows Sean is going to get called for every borderline play under the sun. So he tries to toe that fine line of keeping him effective, while at the same time limiting him so much so that he can't hurt the team on a nightly basis.
We've seen Torts screaming at the on ice officials over horrendous calls made on Avery. But Torts KNOWS he is fighting a losing battle. All he can do is yell and scream on the ice. He can try and make phone calls behind closed doors to the league offices to complain, but ANYONE WHO KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT SEAN AVERY AND THE NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE KNOWS HE'D BE FIGHTING A WORTHLESS, LOSING BATTLE.
Hell, this is the same league that just smiled and laughed when some of the most disturbing emails I've ever read were leaked from their Vice President of Hockey Operations.
If anyone thinks this league treats everyone fairly, they again need to open their eyes.
chosen, you play him because when he is effective, he can take over the game. look at the series vs atlanta. kovalchuk was dropping gloves instead of scoring goals. vs new jersey, brodeur looked horrible because avery pissed him off. you want a guy like that on your team. if you dont like that penalties are usually attached with that kind of player, thats your opinion, whatever. but that doesnt mean all of his supporters, especially the ones agreeing that he needs to play better in the rare event he does dress for a game are wrong. we just see the value of having a guy like that on the team.
this thread reeks of "im butthurt becuase my favorite player doenst get as much playing time as i think he deserves"
say what you want about Torts and his evaluation criteria but he has given avery chances, and he's done so repeatedly. If he really had such a vendeta against him, as so many are trying to indicate, then avery's ass would be perminately glued to the luxury box upstairs or sent to the whale
i cant say exactly what Torts is looking to get when he puts avery out there, but one thing is clear, he's not getting it... and i can gaurentee you Avery is well aware of what is expected of him
