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End of the heavyweight?

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Old
07-07-2011, 06:09 PM
  #1
Timmer44
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End of the heavyweight?

Are we seeing the demise of the NHL heavyweight?

Last season wasn't a good year for the heavyweight. Ivanan's career was likely ended. Boogaard passed away. Colton Orr's career is in jeopardy.

A few teams are adopting the Red Wings model of speed and "turning the other cheek" as well as teams are employing enforcers that can play. Even Edmonton, who has probably the most feared enforcer in the league, went out and signed Hordichuk and Ben Eager, who at the very least can skate, albeit slowly.

Are we seeing the end of the heavies?

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07-07-2011, 06:20 PM
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colton orr's career isnt in jeopardy, he was cleared to play last year
true heavyweights will always be around they draw fans on crappy teams and can be difference makers
just take a look at what shawn thornton was able to do in the finals, he made a huge difference

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Old
07-07-2011, 08:01 PM
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Aurel Joliat
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I think real heavyweights will play in the AHL

There was something like 6-7 true heavyweights UFA and they are still all available

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07-07-2011, 10:22 PM
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I think for the next few years it will be mostly MWs and borderline HWs. Most coaches want to be able to roll all 4 lines these days and most heavies today can barely play. Also the current rule set up does not allow the 1 dimensional fighter to properly do his job to the fullest ability. In a few years more and more big kids (with hw material) will be coming through the system that will be able to play and throw em. (Parros, Engelland, and Orr types)

I also agree that last seasons very weak HW performance did not help matters at all.

There is also the chance the NHL may curb fighting more (tweaking/adding rules) with the recent head injury awareness (I could go on a 10 page rant about that overblown crap) which would potentially ruin what little value is left in HWs. Which I have a feeling might happen when the current CBA expires next season(?). No Hit League living up to its nickname.

Want to point out that the current remaining HW ufa list is a little misleading. A lot of teams have young HWs or NHL ready HWs in thier system already and dont really need to go out and sign HWs .

SJ-Mclaren/Mashinter Let Eager go.
Philly-Sestito Have Shelley
Min- Matt Kassian
STL- Peluso/Reaves Let Bam Bam go.
Tor- Greenop/Rosehill Have Orr
NYR- A few potential HWs drafted last couple years. Have Rupp.
NJD- Have Leblond
CHI- Have Scott
Panthers- Have Yonkman
Caps- Have King
etc

After you go through all the teams very few dont have an upcoming or NHL ready HW in thier system. Most of the ones that dont are very euro based and I highly doubt they are going to start getting enforcers. This leaves the current UFA crop with little options.

Think of the current HW market like the back up goalie market. Few openings with an overabundance of potential supply.


Also left out some other factors so thats why there are some holes in my logic. Sorry for the mega post lol.


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Old
07-17-2011, 11:50 AM
  #5
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The way I see it, there are only a few true heavyweight goons in today's NHL.

Steve MacIntyre
Colton Orr
Matt Carkner
George Parros
John Scott
Deryk Engelland
Trevor Gillies
Eric Boulton
Jody Shelley
Brian McGrattan
Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond (Looks like he could be the main guy for Calgary next season)
Eric Godard
David Koci (UFA)
D.J. King (UFA)

Shawn Thornton and Mike Rupp are heavyweights, but they aren't slouches. They can both play the game.

Frazer McLaren is a younger guy who will get a shot at a roster spot with San Jose. I'd consider him a true heavyweight.

With the Boogaard passing and Ivanans possibly done, heavyweights did have a bad year last year. Do I think they will go "extinct"? No. Are they "endangered"? Yes.


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Old
07-17-2011, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruise Bros 2426 View Post
The way I see it, there are only a few true heavyweight goons in today's NHL.

Steve MacIntyre
Colton Orr
Matt Carkner
George Parros
John Scott
Deryk Engelland
Trevor Gillies
Eric Boulton
Jody Shelley
Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond (Looks like he could be the main guy for Calgary next season)
Eric Godard
David Koci (UFA)
D.J. King (UFA)

Shawn Thornton and Mike Rupp are heavyweights, but they aren't slouches. They can both play the game.

Frazer McLaren is a younger guy who will get a shot at a roster spot with San Jose. I'd consider him a true heavyweight.

With the Boogaard passing and Ivanans possibly done, heavyweights did have a bad year last year. Do I think they will go "extinct"? No. Are they "endangered"? Yes.
Carkner is far more useful than all the other players you listed he is a solid 3rd pairing d-man that can play 15 mins a game and not hurt your team. His HW skills are an added bonus to the team.

Let me include Deryk Engelland who is a much younger verson of Carkner, and a player i really like.


Last edited by EastCoastSensFan: 07-17-2011 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Deryk Engelland
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Old
07-17-2011, 04:04 PM
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Engeland is a damn good enforcer, the guy himself is middle weight at best but can beat heavyweight guys. Pens this season are very well set enforcerwise having the #1 and another top 5 guy.

I think (more hope) we'll the rebirth of heavyweights. In my mind they bring something to the game that can't be replaced.

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Old
07-18-2011, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastSensFan View Post

Let me include Deryk Engelland who is a much younger verson of Carkner, and a player i really like.
Engelland is only a year younger then Carkner.

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07-18-2011, 09:28 AM
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IMO the demise of true heavies will lead to an increase in fights with a focus on overall team toughness with multiple guys with 5-10 fights, compared to one with 20+.

Heavies were the only real keepers of the false code which kept them employed and off the IR. With more players fighting out of anger, instead of for show I think it will lead to more simultaneous fights, and a more angry tone to the game.

Instead of sending out your heavy to fight theirs, I feel like fights are evolving to more spur of the moment types. Probably alot like you saw in the original 6/ early expansion with the smaller rosters.

However, with the decrease of goon fighting, you will see an increase of HF boards complaining due to more extra crap while on the ground, and an overall increase in anger.

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Old
07-18-2011, 09:32 AM
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I think fighting will slowly be pressured to a minimum by the media and league rules in the coming decade. With head shots being the talk of all media in sports, the NHL is one of the only pro sports leagues (UFC) that does not suspend its players for fist fights. I think the NHL will slowly adopt the one fight rule and then suspensions.

In my mind it's sad, but the league has changed the game to a european style of hockey. Yes skill is a great thing in the game, I agree but something about the Bobby Clarke and Broad street bully type of hockey puts butts in the seats and gets fans having some passion. I miss it, but thats the way of the world.

Guys like Orr, Koci, Boogy(RIP) likely won't have jobs in the near future because the NHL teams are slowly realizing having a player solely there to enforce is becoming a liability. They still have to pay the salaries of the injured enforcer who isn't doing much for the team sitting in the press box, why not replace him with a fourth line grinder to develop at a lower price.

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Old
07-18-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
IMO the demise of true heavies will lead to an increase in fights with a focus on overall team toughness with multiple guys with 5-10 fights, compared to one with 20+.

Heavies were the only real keepers of the false code which kept them employed and off the IR. With more players fighting out of anger, instead of for show I think it will lead to more simultaneous fights, and a more angry tone to the game.

Instead of sending out your heavy to fight theirs, I feel like fights are evolving to more spur of the moment types. Probably alot like you saw in the original 6/ early expansion with the smaller rosters.

However, with the decrease of goon fighting, you will see an increase of HF boards complaining due to more extra crap while on the ground, and an overall increase in anger.
Good post. A good portion of teams in the league are going that route. We aren't seeing the end of heavyweights, just the end of one dimensional fighters.

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Old
07-18-2011, 11:05 AM
  #12
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The game goes through cycles or phases.

Hopefully the NHL will always have fighting.

One-dimensional heavyweight enforcers are endangered, but light heavyweight and middle weight fighters who can actually play the game are hopefully becoming more common.

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Old
07-18-2011, 11:20 AM
  #13
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True heavyweight enforcers for this season:

Anaheim - George Parros
Boston - Shawn Thornton
Buffalo - N/A
Calgary - Pierre-Luc Leblond
Carolina- N/A
Chicago - John Scott
Colorado - N/A
Columbus - N/A
Dallas - Krys Barch/Eric Godard
Detroit - N/A
Edmonton - Darcy Hordichuk
Florida - N/A
Los Angeles - Kevin Westgarth
Minnesota - Matt Kassian
Montreal - N/A
Nashville - N/A
New Jersey - Eric Boulton
NY Islanders - Trevor Gillies
NY Rangers - Mike Rupp
Ottawa - Matt Carkner
Philadelphia - Jody Shelley
Phoenix - Paul Bissonnette
Pittsburgh - Steve MacIntyre
San Jose - Frazer McLaren
St. Louis - N/A
Tampa Bay - N/A
Toronto - Colton Orr
Vancouver - N/A
Washington - D.J. King
Winnipeg - N/A

I considered Jared Boll for Columbus, Cody McCormick for Buffalo, BJ Crombeen for St. Louis. Not sure if they are true enforcers. Rupp may not be a true enforcer but he is a heavyweight when he fights. Kassian and McLaren may start the season in the AHL.

18 of 30 teams have a heavyweight enforcer. If you include guys like Boll, McCormick, Crombeen, its 21 of 30. Winnipeg signed Glass and Rypien so they have fighters as well.

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Old
07-18-2011, 01:29 PM
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Ottawa is stacked with Carkner, Konopka, and Chris Neil. They also have a good middleweight in Zack Smith.

Can't forget about Francis Lessard in Bingo.

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07-18-2011, 03:09 PM
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I hope we're seeing the end of HWs who are only there for staged fights. I love a good fight brought around by passion/intense competition between two players who can actually play, but staged fights between guys who plays like 3-4 mins/game just cheapen the game IMO, to me they're a side show on the same level as cheer leaders in other sports. I like the role that guys like Shawn Thornton, Mike Brown, etc. play, but guys like Steve MacIntyre are essentially boxers on skates, they play a completely different sport than everyone else.

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07-18-2011, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I hope we're seeing the end of HWs who are only there for staged fights. I love a good fight brought around by passion/intense competition between two players who can actually play, but staged fights between guys who plays like 3-4 mins/game just cheapen the game IMO, to me they're a side show on the same level as cheer leaders in other sports. I like the role that guys like Shawn Thornton, Mike Brown, etc. play, but guys like Steve MacIntyre are essentially boxers on skates, they play a completely different sport than everyone else.
It's essentially an arms race. The theory is, the HW will intimidate a Cooke, Avery or Ruutu into thinking twice about taking a run at a star player. Those guys no longer have to fight heavies and are protected by the rules.

If two teams have a fighter on their teams, those guys go out, whack each other a few times and we go back to the game. If anything, it's an outlet for the players to see their big brother try to take out the other teams big brother. Doesn't really solve anything but probably makes players play a little bigger than they do. Little games within games.

The thing is, you are begginning to see one-dimensional fighters being shelved in the pressbox because the opposing teams don't employ a fighter. Detroit started this by playing their skill players against the other teams 4th line. Guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg skated rings around the Parros' and the Hordichuk's of the world. The only time they would be used would be if there was a lead late in the game just as policeman. Other than that they were useless if they didn't have anyone to go with.

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Old
07-18-2011, 06:37 PM
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This thread pops up every year, and every year the heavyweight lives on. Godard got a 1-way contract, was MacIntyre's 1-way too?

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07-18-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmer44 View Post
It's essentially an arms race. The theory is, the HW will intimidate a Cooke, Avery or Ruutu into thinking twice about taking a run at a star player. Those guys no longer have to fight heavies and are protected by the rules.

If two teams have a fighter on their teams, those guys go out, whack each other a few times and we go back to the game. If anything, it's an outlet for the players to see their big brother try to take out the other teams big brother. Doesn't really solve anything but probably makes players play a little bigger than they do. Little games within games.

The thing is, you are begginning to see one-dimensional fighters being shelved in the pressbox because the opposing teams don't employ a fighter. Detroit started this by playing their skill players against the other teams 4th line. Guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg skated rings around the Parros' and the Hordichuk's of the world. The only time they would be used would be if there was a lead late in the game just as policeman. Other than that they were useless if they didn't have anyone to go with.
I certainly understand the idea behind having a HW (even if they have been semi-neutered by the instigator rule for quite some time now), and in those rare games that get completely out of control and descend into goon fests (think Pens/Isles last year) it's great to have these guys to back you up, I played lots of hockey growing up and you definitely have more swagger and less worries with a serious fighter or two on the team. But as a fan, I just find the true HWs who legitimately suck at hockey and more or less just get into staged fights to be a bit of an embarrassment to the sport, they're playing a completely different game and IMO just put on side shows. Mike Richards (or even Mike Brown) throwing down in a fit of anger when the game gets heated is a lot different than Big Mac and Ivanans cordially agreeing to put on a show.

I don't think we're truly seeing the end of the HW, they still play a role on many teams (especially bad teams trying to attract fans), but I personally would not shed a tear if the pure HWs who can't play were eliminated, even though I definitely want fighting in general to stay. Hence the "I hope" in my post, not "I think."

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Old
07-18-2011, 08:11 PM
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Goons Should Kill Each Other!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruise Bros 2426 View Post
The way I see it, there are only a few true heavyweight goons in today's NHL.

Steve MacIntyre
Colton Orr
Matt Carkner
George Parros
John Scott
Deryk Engelland
Trevor Gillies
Eric Boulton
Jody Shelley
Brian McGrattan
Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond (Looks like he could be the main guy for Calgary next season)
Eric Godard
David Koci (UFA)
D.J. King (UFA)

Shawn Thornton and Mike Rupp are heavyweights, but they aren't slouches. They can both play the game.

Frazer McLaren is a younger guy who will get a shot at a roster spot with San Jose. I'd consider him a true heavyweight.

With the Boogaard passing and Ivanans possibly done, heavyweights did have a bad year last year. Do I think they will go "extinct"? No. Are they "endangered"? Yes.
Outside of Parros and Thornton the others are the goons of the goons and truly can be put into category of useless. Maybe they can be put unto the ice together to kill one another now that would be fitting. We could have the Roman games all over again! And what a
sight for old eyes!

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07-18-2011, 11:57 PM
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I'd rather the league allowed enforcers to play there role. If not there is not much a use for them. Either, let them protect there team or why bother?

There will always be Cooke's in this version of the NHL. They put the instigator in to protect the stars, but it is actually working in the opposite way. Now, the Cooke's of the NHL have free reign on stars and then enforcers have to ask Matt Cooke to fight. Instead, of breaking his nose every time he touched one. After a while, the stars would not be touched and Cooke's type of player would be eliminated from the league.

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07-19-2011, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
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I'd rather the league allowed enforcers to play there role. If not there is not much a use for them. Either, let them protect there team or why bother?

There will always be Cooke's in this version of the NHL. They put the instigator in to protect the stars, but it is actually working in the opposite way. Now, the Cooke's of the NHL have free reign on stars and then enforcers have to ask Matt Cooke to fight. Instead, of breaking his nose every time he touched one. After a while, the stars would not be touched and Cooke's type of player would be eliminated from the league.
I dont get this argument.

Legit heavies would never jump Matt Cooke, and it has nothing to do with the instigator penalty. Think about it, would any team really bat an eye at losing Goddard for 17mins in a game? No.

Its that these heavies would then be breaking their unwritten BS code. If they were to jump cook, then they might actually have an opponent that fights them out of anger, not with a pat on the back. This would increase their likelihood to get injured and therefore lose pay. These guys dont want to have real fights, they just want their 5mins a night with a goon fight in the 1st 5mins of the game and to collect their $800k.

IMO the lie of the enforcer was front and center when Laraque chased Lucic around the ice in Montreal, asking him nicely to fight him while Lucic and the Bruins laughed in his face. They new Laraque would never break his BS code and therefore is beyond useless. If he wanted to make a statement, he would have dropped them with Lucic on the opening draw to show his team would not be pushed around but he didn't.

And so what if he got kicked out of the game or suspended, it would have been 100% worth it for Montreal.

What I am saying is that if goons really did their jobs, a ton more would be getting instigator penalties and suspended. Who cares if you lose a marginal player for a game or 2. The truth is that the goons dont want to get instigator penalties or suspended because they might actually then have to do their jobs.

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07-19-2011, 01:11 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
I dont get this argument.

Legit heavies would never jump Matt Cooke, and it has nothing to do with the instigator penalty. Think about it, would any team really bat an eye at losing Goddard for 17mins in a game? No.

Its that these heavies would then be breaking their unwritten BS code. If they were to jump cook, then they might actually have an opponent that fights them out of anger, not with a pat on the back. This would increase their likelihood to get injured and therefore lose pay. These guys dont want to have real fights, they just want their 5mins a night with a goon fight in the 1st 5mins of the game and to collect their $800k.

IMO the lie of the enforcer was front and center when Laraque chased Lucic around the ice in Montreal, asking him nicely to fight him while Lucic and the Bruins laughed in his face. They new Laraque would never break his BS code and therefore is beyond useless. If he wanted to make a statement, he would have dropped them with Lucic on the opening draw to show his team would not be pushed around but he didn't.

And so what if he got kicked out of the game or suspended, it would have been 100% worth it for Montreal.

What I am saying is that if goons really did their jobs, a ton more would be getting instigator penalties and suspended. Who cares if you lose a marginal player for a game or 2. The truth is that the goons dont want to get instigator penalties or suspended because they might actually then have to do their jobs.
1. No one is scared of Matt Cooke.
2. Every enforcer in the league would love to take a night off from actually fighting someone tough. A poon like Cooke would probably be better than sex for most.
3. Add the instigator(2) to a fighting major(5). 7 minute powerplay, good luck playing after that.
4. Instigator in the last 5 minutes leads to a coach and team fine. Good luck playing after that.
5. Who cares if they get suspended? They do! They aren't making 3 mil a year, there making like 500K, they need to eat too.
6. Why not just fix the rules and see if it is better with enforcers policing the game, instead of Bettman. Seems like there are a lot of star players out eh?

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07-19-2011, 01:20 PM
  #23
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I think we are seeing the end of staged fighting slowly but surely.

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07-19-2011, 02:09 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinner View Post
I'd rather the league allowed enforcers to play there role. If not there is not much a use for them. Either, let them protect there team or why bother?

There will always be Cooke's in this version of the NHL. They put the instigator in to protect the stars, but it is actually working in the opposite way. Now, the Cooke's of the NHL have free reign on stars and then enforcers have to ask Matt Cooke to fight. Instead, of breaking his nose every time he touched one. After a while, the stars would not be touched and Cooke's type of player would be eliminated from the league.
Cooke type players have been around for LONG before the inclusion of the instigator rule, which was introduced in the early 90s.

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07-19-2011, 02:47 PM
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Just to add, I think this is the exact situation a heavy should be used for. Take the instigator, make the punk pay for even thinking about looking at your star player.

Screw the heavy on heavy code, if it's reactionary keeping scrubs in line, the code goes out the window in my opinion.


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