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07-08-2011, 08:04 AM
  #1
Zetterberg4Captain
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New Top 6 Forward

http://redwingsandthings.blogspot.com/

bit of an interesting read, anyone think Holland has any plans to beef up out top 6 forward group by dealing with either Buffalo or Washington?

Out of all the players listed obviously Vanek and Semin would be fantastic however their price tags in terms of assets going back/salary now/expectations would be too high.

Roy or Stafford would be the best fit in terms of costs, salary, age, etc

Boyes is a reclammation project, is UFA at the end of the year, would cost next to nothing, typical Holland move, not beneficial whatsoever long term however.

Go get Derek Roy Kenny to be out #2 centre matched with Zetts and Franzen.

What would Roy cost us?

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07-08-2011, 08:32 AM
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I wouldn't mind anyone of Vanek, Roy or Stafford, but I doubt they move them. The only they would consider moving is Boyes. Vanek is their only elite forward, Roy is their no. 1 center and Stafford is their second highest goalscorer (or top 3, I can't remember).

They need a 7th defenseman (as cheap as possible) and a backup goaltender. We need a top 6 forward.

Maybe they would be interested in Kindl? Put Hudler in the mix. McCollum? Picks or more prospects. Any proposal I make will probably be underselling Buffalo, but...

Hudler+Kindl+Emmerton (or another prospect)+high round pick (2nd?) for Roy+7th?

Hudler+Filppula+Kindl+1st (2011)+1st (2012) for Vanek?

Hudler+Kindl+7th for Boyes?

I don't even know, I suck at this. All I know is I want to get rid of Hudler.

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07-08-2011, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPAIN View Post
I wouldn't mind anyone of Vanek, Roy or Stafford, but I doubt they move them. The only they would consider moving is Boyes. Vanek is their only elite forward, Roy is their no. 1 center and Stafford is their second highest goalscorer (or top 3, I can't remember).

They need a 7th defenseman (as cheap as possible) and a backup goaltender. We need a top 6 forward.

Maybe they would be interested in Kindl? Put Hudler in the mix. McCollum? Picks or more prospects. Any proposal I make will probably be underselling Buffalo, but...

Hudler+Kindl+Emmerton (or another prospect)+high round pick (2nd?) for Roy+7th?

Hudler+Filppula+Kindl+1st (2011)+1st (2012) for Vanek?

Hudler+Kindl+7th for Boyes?

I don't even know, I suck at this. All I know is I want to get rid of Hudler.
You don't have to give up Hudler+Kindl for Boyes, Buffalo has some cap issues and Boyes is overpaid (but so is Hudler). I think Hudler, low level prospect + a pick would be better. Kindl is a NHLer, not a throw in.

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07-08-2011, 09:09 AM
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7th defensemen and backup goalies are among the easiest and most plentiful things to find. Why would Buffalo give up a good scorer for either or both?

The Wings don't have the pieces and what pieces they do have they aren't willing to trade. Vanek and Stafford would both be good adds - Vanek's the better player but his cap hit is pretty big.

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07-08-2011, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Why would Buffalo give up a good scorer for either or both?.
Cap space. Both Washington and Buffalo definitely have to make moves to lower their cap hit. I'd really like to see Holland make a move for Stafford. It seems to me that Kindl + 2012 2nd rounder for Stafford is fair, but what do you guys think?

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07-08-2011, 10:06 AM
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I'm going to throw a name out there that hasn't been discussed: Milan Michalek.

His value is probably relatively low right now and the Senators aren't going to be contending any time soon... I know Murray said last year that he's open to trading anyone other than Karlsson and Alfredsson. Michalek was good for about 25 goals a year when he was in San Jose. Even with down years his last two seasons, he scored 22 and 18 goals in 66 games. I remember in '08-09 when the Sharks were playing insane hockey, a lot of SJ fans credited their success to Michalek's overall play.

He's still young at 26 years old, he's 6'2", 225 lbs, fast as hell, and has a cap hit of $4.3 million. His cap hit is a bit high but I think he has 70+ point potential.

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07-08-2011, 10:15 AM
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Definitely under the radar kind of acquisition. Hasn't impressed much on a fairly poor Sens team. He's an upgrade over Hudler for sure and Ottawa wouldn't ask too much for him either. As long as Hudler is going the other way.

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07-08-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by warox View Post
Cap space. Both Washington and Buffalo definitely have to make moves to lower their cap hit. I'd really like to see Holland make a move for Stafford. It seems to me that Kindl + 2012 2nd rounder for Stafford is fair, but what do you guys think?
If Buffalo were that worried about their cap situation they wouldn't have signed Ehrhoff and Leino or made the deal for Regehr and Kotalik. There are a number of ways to get themselves the roster filler they need without dumping anyone valuable.

They can demote Kotalik or ship him to the KHL.
They can find a taker for Leopold.
They can demote or otherwise dump one of their lousier guys that are underperforming on their contracts - Pominville (tough to do with his NMC), Hecht (always hurt), Gaustad ($2.3 mil for what again? Fights and faceoffs?), maybe Boyes (a 15 goal scorer making $4 mil). None of these guys are worth the Wings' trouble except maybe Gaustad, but he's not a top 6er anyway.

This one is the easiest solution of all:

They re-sign Sekera and Enroth, demote Mike Weber, go with 6 defensemen (because that's all a team needs on any given night), and then demote Kaleta and go with 12 forwards (because that's all a team needs on any given night). They get to keep all their good players and don't have to throw any of them away for other teams' garbage. Hecht will be on LTIR by Halloween and then they can go ahead and call up their unnecessary 13th forward and 7th defenseman.

Washington is another matter. They didn't need Joel Ward, Troy Brouwer, or Roman Hamrlik, yet they signed all three and overpaid badly for Laich and put themselves over the cap. They have way too many defensemen under contract and they'll be trading at least one of them (my money is on Poti moving either to another team or to Hershey). Again, I don't see them having to give away good players for cap purposes.

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07-08-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice View Post
I'm going to throw a name out there that hasn't been discussed: Milan Michalek.

His value is probably relatively low right now and the Senators aren't going to be contending any time soon... I know Murray said last year that he's open to trading anyone other than Karlsson and Alfredsson. Michalek was good for about 25 goals a year when he was in San Jose. Even with down years his last two seasons, he scored 22 and 18 goals in 66 games. I remember in '08-09 when the Sharks were playing insane hockey, a lot of SJ fans credited their success to Michalek's overall play.

He's still young at 26 years old, he's 6'2", 225 lbs, fast as hell, and has a cap hit of $4.3 million. His cap hit is a bit high but I think he has 70+ point potential.
I'm game for that, don't think Ottawa is up to trading him. They'd probably want Filppula back.

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07-08-2011, 11:07 AM
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I'm game for that, don't think Ottawa is up to trading him. They'd probably want Filppula back.
I think it'd be more like Hudler, one of the higher-end forward prospects, and a mid-range pick.

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07-08-2011, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
If Buffalo were that worried about their cap situation they wouldn't have signed Ehrhoff and Leino or made the deal for Regehr and Kotalik. There are a number of ways to get themselves the roster filler they need without dumping anyone valuable.

They can demote Kotalik or ship him to the KHL.
They can find a taker for Leopold.
They can demote or otherwise dump one of their lousier guys that are underperforming on their contracts - Pominville (tough to do with his NMC), Hecht (always hurt), Gaustad ($2.3 mil for what again? Fights and faceoffs?), maybe Boyes (a 15 goal scorer making $4 mil). None of these guys are worth the Wings' trouble except maybe Gaustad, but he's not a top 6er anyway.

This one is the easiest solution of all:

They re-sign Sekera and Enroth, demote Mike Weber, go with 6 defensemen (because that's all a team needs on any given night), and then demote Kaleta and go with 12 forwards (because that's all a team needs on any given night). They get to keep all their good players and don't have to throw any of them away for other teams' garbage. Hecht will be on LTIR by Halloween and then they can go ahead and call up their unnecessary 13th forward and 7th defenseman.

Washington is another matter. They didn't need Joel Ward, Troy Brouwer, or Roman Hamrlik, yet they signed all three and overpaid badly for Laich and put themselves over the cap. They have way too many defensemen under contract and they'll be trading at least one of them (my money is on Poti moving either to another team or to Hershey). Again, I don't see them having to give away good players for cap purposes.
if a team is right up against the cap and a player gets injured, the injured players salary does it not stay on the books as well as the call up players salary?

isnt this how the devils got so screwed last year when some nights they ran with less players dressed then the opposition?

can you actually spend right up to the cap without a penny to spare and their be absolutely no negative potential consequnces?

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07-08-2011, 12:16 PM
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if a team is right up against the cap and a player gets injured, the injured players salary does it not stay on the books as well as the call up players salary?
Per the current CBA, there's only a few ways to get a player off the books. LTIR (10 game minimum and can go to minors for conditioning), waived to the minors, or loaned to Europe are the only ways I can think of off the top of my head. Note that a player on regular IR comes off the roster count, but NOT the cap. If you're up to the cap and can't get a player off the books, you can't bring anyone else in.

Sarcastro, I just don't see any NHL GM anywhere rostering 20 players rather than 23. Maybe 22, but I just don't see it happening in today's NHL. Yes, it happens from time to time when you don't want to put a player on LTIR but I can't see it any sane GM entering the regular season with 20. Trading or giving away good players for cap space is a fact of the new era of hockey we're in. Time will tell who's right between you and I, but I expect both Wash and Buff to make moves to get under cap with a 23 man roster, and with our cap space I hope Holland is paying attention.

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07-08-2011, 12:21 PM
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I would love any of them but the only ones I see being available are Boyes and Semin.

Stafford just re-signed, Vanek is Buffalo's best player(other than Miller), and Roy is their #1 C.

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07-08-2011, 12:24 PM
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I'd love to see a tweak made to the top 6/9 forwards...the younger, the better. They need some youthful legs to take some of the heat of the old war horses.

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07-08-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
if a team is right up against the cap and a player gets injured, the injured players salary does it not stay on the books as well as the call up players salary?

isnt this how the devils got so screwed last year when some nights they ran with less players dressed then the opposition?

can you actually spend right up to the cap without a penny to spare and their be absolutely no negative potential consequnces?
1. If the player goes on LTIR the salary does not effectively stay on the books.

2. The Devils had a combination of that horrible Kovalchuk deal and a lot of guys get injured but not badly enough for LTIR. All the Sabres and Caps have to clear is a mil or two and they've got room to make emergency callups if need be.

3. It is possible, yes.

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Originally Posted by warox View Post
Per the current CBA, there's only a few ways to get a player off the books. LTIR (10 game minimum and can go to minors for conditioning), waived to the minors, or loaned to Europe are the only ways I can think of off the top of my head. Note that a player on regular IR comes off the roster count, but NOT the cap. If you're up to the cap and can't get a player off the books, you can't bring anyone else in.

Sarcastro, I just don't see any NHL GM anywhere rostering 20 players rather than 23. Maybe 22, but I just don't see it happening in today's NHL. Yes, it happens from time to time when you don't want to put a player on LTIR but I can't see it any sane GM entering the regular season with 20. Trading or giving away good players for cap space is a fact of the new era of hockey we're in. Time will tell who's right between you and I, but I expect both Wash and Buff to make moves to get under cap with a 23 man roster, and with our cap space I hope Holland is paying attention.
If the alternative is trading Vanek or Roy for Hudler, I can definitely see a GM rostering 20 players.

Bottom line - the teams in question have options that don't involve giving away good players in order to get under the cap.

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07-08-2011, 12:43 PM
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why did the hawks have to purge their roster to manage their cap issues, if its just a matter of LTIR?

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07-08-2011, 12:57 PM
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Buffalo and Washington arent gonna roll with 20 players and a max cap. They will trade some assets away to get a full roster. Injuries will happen. Washington is definitely going to have to dump someone.

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07-08-2011, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
If the alternative is trading Vanek or Roy for Hudler, I can definitely see a GM rostering 20 players.
I agree with the above, no team wants Hudler. My proposal was Stafford for Kindl + 2nd round pick, which is obviously slanted but not completely off-base. Maybe a more reasonable trade is something like Boyes for Hudler straight up. Regardless Holland needs to be making phone calls to these two GMs, because there are upgrades to be had.

And RE: Buffalo roster size. They already have 20 players and can't even bring in a backup goalie for NHL minimum without cutting salary somewhere. So they send one or two entry level salaries to the minors to get space for a backup goalie. Fine, but what happens if Miller takes a puck weird off a leg or knee and has to miss 2-3 games? You need to bring up your 3rd goalie as insurance, and you're not going to want to put your stud goalie on LTIR so he misses 10 games. However, you need at least a half mil in cap space to bring up anybody, so that means you have to send someone down and roll with 19 skaters.

Bottom line - Buffalo isn't going to open the season with a roster of 20. Both teams will move salary.

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07-08-2011, 01:28 PM
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I agree with the above, no team wants Hudler. My proposal was Stafford for Kindl + 2nd round pick, which is obviously slanted but not completely off-base. Maybe a more reasonable trade is something like Boyes for Hudler straight up. Regardless Holland needs to be making phone calls to these two GMs, because there are upgrades to be had.

And RE: Buffalo roster size. They already have 20 players and can't even bring in a backup goalie for NHL minimum without cutting salary somewhere. So they send one or two entry level salaries to the minors to get space for a backup goalie. Fine, but what happens if Miller takes a puck weird off a leg or knee and has to miss 2-3 games? You need to bring up your 3rd goalie as insurance, and you're not going to want to put your stud goalie on LTIR so he misses 10 games. However, you need at least a half mil in cap space to bring up anybody, so that means you have to send someone down and roll with 19 skaters.

Bottom line - Buffalo isn't going to open the season with a roster of 20. Both teams will move salary.
Bottom line - if either team dumps a good player just so they can carry an extra skater in the press box, they're ridiculously stupid and deserve whatever bad things may happen to them as a result. Washington is going to be better off having Semin in their lineup and playing with 11 forwards 2 or 3 nights a year than they'd be with a 22-man roster and no Semin. Ditto for Buffalo and Stafford/Roy/Vanek.

If they do end up dumping assets, they will be assets like Tom Poti, Shaone Morrisson, Jochen Hecht, etc. They won't be foolish enough to dump good players when dumping bad players is an equally possible move.

Quote:
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why did the hawks have to purge their roster to manage their cap issues, if its just a matter of LTIR?
The Hawks were going to be 10, 15, 20 mil over the cap. You can't cover up that kind of a gap without a roster purge. The Caps and Sabres right now look like they're going to be 1 or 2 mil over the cap. Roster juggling is definitely an option for them.

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07-08-2011, 01:44 PM
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Bottom line - if either team dumps a good player just so they can carry an extra skater in the press box, they're ridiculously stupid and deserve whatever bad things may happen to them as a result. Washington is going to be better off having Semin in their lineup and playing with 11 forwards 2 or 3 nights a year than they'd be with a 22-man roster and no Semin. Ditto for Buffalo and Stafford/Roy/Vanek.

If they do end up dumping assets, they will be assets like Tom Poti, Shaone Morrisson, Jochen Hecht, etc. They won't be foolish enough to dump good players when dumping bad players is an equally possible move.



The Hawks were going to be 10, 15, 20 mil over the cap. You can't cover up that kind of a gap without a roster purge. The Caps and Sabres right now look like they're going to be 1 or 2 mil over the cap. Roster juggling is definitely an option for them.

hmm ok fair enough..

obviously i cant see the sabres dumping roy for hudler just to save 1.5 million, but i also cant see a team simply hoping for injuries all season long as as to not have to make any tough choices.

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07-08-2011, 02:43 PM
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1. No team is going to roll with 20 players on the roster, that would be foolish.

2. Teams aren't going to dump their star players in order to roster 22 or 23 guys when they have other options either, that would also be foolish.

3. What teams will do is waive or trade middle-of-the-roster guys; guys with decent cap hits but who are not vital and who free up enough cap space to roster a full squad.

4. LTIR does not remove the player's cap hit. It only allows you to exceed the cap by an amount equal to the LTIR player's cap hit while he's on LTIR. So unless you know right away that one of your players will be on LTIR for the entire season, or you are just trying to delay the inevitable, LTIR is not a realistic option for "saving cap space."

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07-08-2011, 02:52 PM
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Buffalo just waives Kotalik. They don't have any kind of cap problem.

Capitals will have a problem but they will trade defencemen. Doesn't help us.

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07-08-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice View Post
I'm going to throw a name out there that hasn't been discussed: Milan Michalek.

His value is probably relatively low right now and the Senators aren't going to be contending any time soon... I know Murray said last year that he's open to trading anyone other than Karlsson and Alfredsson. Michalek was good for about 25 goals a year when he was in San Jose. Even with down years his last two seasons, he scored 22 and 18 goals in 66 games. I remember in '08-09 when the Sharks were playing insane hockey, a lot of SJ fans credited their success to Michalek's overall play.

He's still young at 26 years old, he's 6'2", 225 lbs, fast as hell, and has a cap hit of $4.3 million. His cap hit is a bit high but I think he has 70+ point potential.
MM is a reasonable option, but one thing to consider: he has had at least two major knee injuries/surgeries. Good speed, but a bit light on the finish.

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07-08-2011, 03:09 PM
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I'm surprised more people aren't into the Michalek idea... seems like the kind of player Holland would be interested in. A lot more plausible than Semin, Vanek, or Roy, IMO...

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07-08-2011, 03:15 PM
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I'm surprised more people aren't into the Michalek idea... seems like the kind of player Holland would be interested in. A lot more plausible than Semin, Vanek, or Roy, IMO...
His career highs are unspectacular, his numbers last year look a lot like Hudler's and he's got three years left at a $4.33 mil cap hit (the salaries are actually much higher, which decreases the odds the Wings make the deal). I think we're right to be skeptical. Not dismissive, but skeptical.

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