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09-22-2011, 07:28 AM
  #726
livewell68
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
In interviews that I've seen, Jagr said he had some teams interested. The bottom line is that the NHL teams don't beleive he's going to be a dominating player and reach 100 pts. And challenge for the Art Ross Trophy
Did you read their minds?

Teams in the NHL are North American. European players themselves have higher expectations of Jagr.

Hasek thinks he will get more than 80 Pts easily.

Kovalchuk thinks Jagr can play until 50 (that to me says Jagr is not almost done at 39).

You know what though, you guys can continue arguing over this. No one will change their mind.

Only when Jagr starts to play will we see how good he really still is. It's all speculation right now.

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09-22-2011, 07:35 AM
  #727
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he probably defends jagr so much because like me, he probably thinks Jagr is the best player in the world, and we probably think that it is arguable that if Jagr played in the earlier era he would compete to be the best. We think Jagr is still capable of playing because we have followed his career for a long time and know what he is capable. We know that his dad was a player and said that his prime was his late 30's and he easily played in his 40's so we know that Jagr can easily play into his 40's and we are hoping for him to stay for a few years.

There is a reason i picked my name, i think he is by far the best player i have ever seen. Hockey is boring for the most part without Jagr playing. Jagr dominates with the puck, can carry your team and is solid as a rock. I can't explain how happy i am that Jagr is back in the NHL were he should be, back here where he can prove that he is the best.

As i said before, 125 points and he tops Mario on the all time list of points, this is what i am hoping for. Hopefully Jagr can stay healthy and beat out Mario's record.

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09-22-2011, 07:37 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Did you read their minds?

Teams in the NHL are North American. European players themselves have higher expectations of Jagr.

Hasek thinks he will get more than 80 Pts easily.

Kovalchuk thinks Jagr can play until 50 (that to me says Jagr is not almost done at 39).

You know what though, you guys can continue arguing over this. No one will change their mind.

Only when Jagr starts to play will we see how good he really still is. It's all speculation right now.

Here's the problem. No one on this thread has said that Jagr still isn't a good player. Just that he's not a dominating 100 pt Art Ross trophy player. It's pretty much common sense that if the NHL as a whole felt he was that dominating player, there would have been an all out bidding war for his services. Especially if as you say it's not about the money and he's willing to play for 3.3M

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09-22-2011, 07:38 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
he probably defends jagr so much because like me, he probably thinks Jagr is the best player in the world, and we probably think that it is arguable that if Jagr played in the earlier era he would compete to be the best. We think Jagr is still capable of playing because we have followed his career for a long time and know what he is capable. We know that his dad was a player and said that his prime was his late 30's and he easily played in his 40's so we know that Jagr can easily play into his 40's and we are hoping for him to stay for a few years.

There is a reason i picked my name, i think he is by far the best player i have ever seen. Hockey is boring for the most part without Jagr playing. Jagr dominates with the puck, can carry your team and is solid as a rock. I can't explain how happy i am that Jagr is back in the NHL were he should be, back here where he can prove that he is the best.

As i said before, 125 points and he tops Mario on the all time list of points, this is what i am hoping for. Hopefully Jagr can stay healthy and beat out Mario's record.

Jagr isn't even in the neighborhood of being the best player in the World right now. Not even close.

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09-22-2011, 07:46 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That's about 25 pts below what our friend is 100% confident he is GOING to do.
OK, I was reading the last page of this thread and was going to respond to you saying that Jagr is going to have a good season.....until I saw you are predicting 65-75 points and the other side is predicting 90-100???? WTF. If Jagr gets a sniff of 75this year I will be EXTREMELY happy, that means he had as good a year as Giroux did last year.

Honestly, I think some people are still living in the 90's. Where 100 points is what the best players get and 50 goals is a very good year. The SUPERSTARS get 80 points.

I am thinking Jagr with Briere and Read (as an example) playing first PP will get somewhere in the area of 20-30 goals with 30-40 assists. I would put the over/under on 60 points.

- 60 points means he has a statistically similar year to Hossa, Doan, Kovalchuk, M. Koivu, Havlat, Lucic, Skinner, Heatley, Kessel, Backstrom, M. Richards. In other words, he is worth his contract!

- 70 points means he has a simiilar year to: Thornton, Sharp, Ryan, Kopitar, Eriksson, Kane, Kesler, Marleau, Getzlaf (Star players. 5-7 million dollar players)

- 80 points means he has a similar year to: Datsyk, B. Richards, Zetterberg, Selanne, Ovechkin, Iginla (Superstar franchise players, 7+ million)

- 90+ points means: Stamkos, Sedin(s), Perry, Crosby, Malkin, St. Louis (The Top players in the NHL, 9 million type players)

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09-22-2011, 07:55 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Jagr isn't even in the neighborhood of being the best player in the World right now. Not even close.
i don't mean now, ofcourse, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying all time.

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09-22-2011, 08:01 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
OK, I was reading the last page of this thread and was going to respond to you saying that Jagr is going to have a good season.....until I saw you are predicting 65-75 points and the other side is predicting 90-100???? WTF. If Jagr gets a sniff of 75this year I will be EXTREMELY happy, that means he had as good a year as Giroux did last year.

Honestly, I think some people are still living in the 90's. Where 100 points is what the best players get and 50 goals is a very good year. The SUPERSTARS get 80 points.

I am thinking Jagr with Briere and Read (as an example) playing first PP will get somewhere in the area of 20-30 goals with 30-40 assists. I would put the over/under on 60 points.

- 60 points means he has a statistically similar year to Hossa, Doan, Kovalchuk, M. Koivu, Havlat, Lucic, Skinner, Heatley, Kessel, Backstrom, M. Richards. In other words, he is worth his contract!

- 70 points means he has a simiilar year to: Thornton, Sharp, Ryan, Kopitar, Eriksson, Kane, Kesler, Marleau, Getzlaf (Star players. 5-7 million dollar players)

- 80 points means he has a similar year to: Datsyk, B. Richards, Zetterberg, Selanne, Ovechkin, Iginla (Superstar franchise players, 7+ million)
- 90+ points means: Stamkos, Sedin(s), Perry, Crosby, Malkin, St. Louis (The Top players in the NHL, 9 million type players)
Are you saying he can't be better than Selanne? Outside of the 1992-93 season, Jagr has always been better than Selanne. So why would it change now?

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09-22-2011, 08:12 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post

Honestly, I think some people are still living in the 90's. Where 100 points is what the best players get and 50 goals is a very good year. The SUPERSTARS get 80 points.

I am thinking Jagr with Briere and Read (as an example) playing first PP will get somewhere in the area of 20-30 goals with 30-40 assists. I would put the over/under on 60 points.

- 60 points means he has a statistically similar year to Hossa, Doan, Kovalchuk, M. Koivu, Havlat, Lucic, Skinner, Heatley, Kessel, Backstrom, M. Richards. In other words, he is worth his contract!
This. I see Jagr somewhere around 60-70 points.

But I think Jagr himself does´n care if he has 55, 60 or 72 pts after 82 games. He is not any baby boy anymore, he does´n play for stats, for future contract... He knows that the real challenge for team like Flyers begins in spring 2012. I think he will start slowly but in playoff games, if healthy, he will be the beast again.

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09-22-2011, 08:37 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Are you saying he can't be better than Selanne? Outside of the 1992-93 season, Jagr has always been better than Selanne. So why would it change now?
I must say you are very insisting person jags6868...

phillyfanatic just wrote several group of players and where he can see Jagr, nothing more or less. Jagr is some kind of black box for a lot of people and only time will tell us if your estimations are the best one.

I understand that you are really big JJ fan... I like the guy too but I am afraid that every Jagr thread will be ignored by a lot of people because everyone will know whats gonna happen in those threads.

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09-22-2011, 08:48 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
...
I don't know for a fact how many team were interested. But what I do know is that if teams felt that Jagr was going to again be a dominating player and score 100 pts, a whole lot more teams probably would have been interested, especially for 3.3M.
You really don't see what you wrote there? You don't know how many teams were interested, but if Jagr was any good, a whole lot more teams would have been intersted?

A whole lot more than what? Than the number (of teams) you don't know?

And since you don't know the number of teams interested, how do you know that the actual number isn't "a whole lot more" than the number you don't know?

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09-22-2011, 08:48 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
i don't mean now, ofcourse, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying all time.

Jagr has been a great player, and a sure fire Hall of Famer. But he is not in the conversation for best all time.

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09-22-2011, 08:50 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Pourquoi pas View Post
You really don't see what you wrote there? You don't know how many teams were interested, but if Jagr was any good, a whole lot more teams would have been intersted?

A whole lot more than what? Than the number (of teams) you don't know?

And since you don't know the number of teams interested, how do you know that the actual number isn't "a whole lot more" than the number you don't know?
Your interpretation of my statement is incorrect. It was obvious there wasn't an all out bidding war between a bunch of teams for Jagr's services.

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09-22-2011, 08:58 AM
  #738
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lol i love this thread. Even if you don't like Jagr you have to give him credit for his ability to piss of Pens fans. He is probably the most hated person in pittsburgh history, it's quite amazing. He was so awesome for them and he destroys their hearts, so sad and so awesome.

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09-22-2011, 09:02 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
It's not realistic to think he'll be able to play at the same level as he did in his prime. Have you read any credible NHL source who beleives that Jagr can play to that level. That he will challenge for the Art Ross?

If Jagr can play at that level, why weren't more teams interested in him as a player?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


"In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for 'appeal to the people') is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it; it alleges: 'If many believe so, it is so'"

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09-22-2011, 09:05 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Rexor View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


"In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for 'appeal to the people') is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it; it alleges: 'If many believe so, it is so'"
That's very nice. Couldn't be more irrelevant to the conversation.

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09-22-2011, 09:11 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's very nice. Couldn't be more irrelevant to the conversation.
It's very relevant to your argument. You're saying that if there was no bidding war on him then there can't possibly be a reason to think NHL teams think he can dominate.

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09-22-2011, 09:12 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Your interpretation of my statement is incorrect. It was obvious there wasn't an all out bidding war between a bunch of teams for Jagr's services.
Oh, I see, it was "obvious".. so 12 teams is obviously just "a few teams", we can even conclude there was literally no interest at all..

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09-22-2011, 09:20 AM
  #743
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Are you saying he can't be better than Selanne? Outside of the 1992-93 season, Jagr has always been better than Selanne. So why would it change now?
sample size.

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09-22-2011, 09:25 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by RockinRiles View Post
sample size.
What sample size?

Selanne willl be playing in his 19th season this coming year while Jagr will be entering his 18th season.

Outside of the 1992-93 season (Selanne's first when he was 23), Jagr's PPG has been better in every season except for 2007-08 when Jagr had 71 Pts in 82 games (0.87 PPG) while Selanne had 23 Pts in 26 games that season (0.88).

So is it going to be different now?

This means that in the 17 seaons they played head to head, we saw Jagr come out on top in terms of PPG in 15 of those seasons in a very decisive manner while Selanne beat him decisively in 1992-93 and the 2007-08 season is only close because Selanne managed to play in just 26 games.

Selanne might have had better GPG (goals per game) in different seasons head to head with Jagr but Jagr was always the better point producer and playmaker.

BTW for the goal thing, Jagr's career GPG is 0.507 while Selanne's is 0.505 so even if people claim that Selanne is a better goal scorer, that's just not the case. Selanne might have had a better peak as a goal scorer but Jagr has been the more consistent one.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-22-2011 at 09:33 AM.
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09-22-2011, 09:25 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Your interpretation of my statement is incorrect. It was obvious there wasn't an all out bidding war between a bunch of teams for Jagr's services.
For someone that likes to throw the evidence quote around allot, you sure do like putting your foot in it.

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09-22-2011, 09:33 AM
  #746
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's very nice. Couldn't be more irrelevant to the conversation.
How is it not relevant? Your proposition is "Jágr is no longer able to dominate in the NHL". You are backing it up by the claim that most NHL teams were not interested in his services, hence they don't believe he can dominate again. It's a logical fallacy. "If many believe so, it is so."

From the Wikipedia article:

"It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely-held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong."


That being said, it's likely that there were many teams interested in Jágr. I just wanted to point out that your argument is suspicious even on purely formal basis.

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09-22-2011, 09:39 AM
  #747
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
What sample size?

Selanne willl be playing in his 19th season this coming year while Jagr will be entering his 18th season.

Outside of the 1992-93 season (Selanne's first when he was 23), Jagr's PPG has been better in every season except for 2007-08 when Jagr had 71 Pts in 82 games (0.87 PPG) while Selanne had 23 Pts in 26 games that season (0.88).

So is it going to be different now?

This means that in the 17 seaons they played head to head, we saw Jagr come out on top in terms of PPG in 15 of those seasons in a very decisive manner while Selanne beat him decisively in 1992-93 and the 2007-08 season is only close because Selanne managed to play in just 26 games.

Selanne might have had better GPG (goals per game) in different seasons head to head with Jagr but Jagr was always the better point producer and playmaker.

BTW for the goal thing, Jagr's career GPG is 0.507 while Selanne's is 0.505 so even if people claim that Selanne is a better goal scorer, that's just not the case. Selanne might have had a better peak as a goal scorer but Jagr has been the more consistent one.
Selanne is a complete outlier. Only an idiot uses an anomaly as the basis of their argument.

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09-22-2011, 09:43 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Sure it was a freak year for some and there were a few more players with 100 Pts than usual but regardless only 2 players scored more than 110 Pts and those 2 players were Jagr and Thornton. Jagr had 17 Pts more than the 3rd leading scorer.

A freak year for someone is when they are usually 70 Pts players and suddenly they score 100 Pts.

Jagr had already put together 4 seasons of 100 Pts or more and had played another 3 seasons (1994-95, 1996-97 and 1999-00) at a 120 Pts pace. So for Jagr it wasn't a freak season as much as him finding his passion and motivation back after playing in Russia.

As for people saying Jagr has more reasonable expectations than I do:



This to me doesn't say that. Jagr isn't saying he can't play at the level he used to play at, he simply says people will have to wait and see. Jagr himself is not putting a number on what to expect from him, he's not saying "I'm going to top off at 75 Pts".
Dude, 05-06 represented a 40+ point jump for Jagr, and then his totals regressed just as scoring regressed league-wide. Scoring has continued to go down since Jagr left the league.

Seriously, stop getting out the lube whenever you see Jagr's name. You will be a better hockey fan for it.

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09-22-2011, 09:44 AM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Selanne is a complete outlier. Only an idiot uses an anomaly as the basis of their argument.
This should be a commandment of sports debate or something.

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09-22-2011, 09:46 AM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Selanne is a complete outlier. Only an idiot uses an anomaly as the basis of their argument.
It can be argued Jágr is an outlier too.

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