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MLD 2011 Draft Thread I

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Old
07-11-2011, 08:38 PM
  #126
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you don't think coaches put together specific game plans for the other team in the playoffs that they don't in the regular season, they I don't know what to tell you. Playing the same team 4-7 times in a row, all in highly meaningful games is a big difference from the regular season.
So they're okay with not doing all they can to win in the regular season?

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07-11-2011, 08:49 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I had no idea, either. And Pelletier has been wrong before (saying things like "usually" based off one or two game reports). Agree with your interpretation of things if Pelletier is correct.

Edit: As for McCabe, the impression was usually that Kaberle covered for him, correct?
Tough to put into such easy terms. You have to understand the "nuances" and "angles". Bryan McCabe was a rare RHS defenseman who...

never mind, I don't have the time for impressions right now.

But yeah, there's more to it than that. Here are my thoughts:

There are three levels to it.

Raw defensive ability:

Kaberle played defense like Lidstrom, just not nearly as good. He was positional and he much preferred to pokecheck. McCabe was a bit more of a puckchaser. It was much more often I'd see a guy tap in a goal when Kaberle should have been covering/clearing him than McCabe. I would say McCabe's raw, non-physical, non-puck defensive abilities were just a tad greater when they were in their primes.

Physical defensive ability:

McCabe was far superior in this regard. He was a very good bodychecker at the start of his career, and a hard worker in the corners. He had a mean streak and he would battle very hard in front of the net. He was very strong physically and that willingness and ability to clear the crease made him quite useful. Kaberle, on the other hand, is one of the softest prominent defensemen of this generation.

Puck defensive ability:

There is no doubt that McCabe was more prone to giveaways and panic. Sometimes he looked great with the puck, other times he looked like Aki 2.0. He was not as accurate a passer and was not as great a breakout player (I consider breakout ability part of defensive ability because if you don't do it successfully then are forced to defend some more). On the other hand, Kaberle rarely had a miscue with the puck on his stick, and even when he did, he had this ability to recover/retrieve it. Very underrated ability that gets overlooked when he's so soft (same as McCabe's physical defensive abilities get overlooked because of a few high profile brainfarts) At times it appeared Kaberle was "covering" for McCabe because of his recovery abilities, but that is just one side of it.

Overall, I would give McCabe a very slight edge at prevention of goals against. It's not huge or anything though.

Statistically, they are pretty similar. They have the exact same career adjusted ESGA/GP: 0.91. They had about the same stats defensively while playing together. McCabe's on/off was 1.08/0.94 with Kaberle and 1.08/0.95 without, including years on the Leafs when Kaberle was an off-ice comparable for him. Kaberle was 1.10/0.93 when playing with McCabe (indicating they were practically joined at the hip) and 1.01/0.99 without. It seems McCabe had the same results with and without Kaberle (and has now done it for over 200 more games and for more minutes per game) but Kaberle did not have the same results without McCabe.

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Old
07-11-2011, 09:27 PM
  #128
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Good info. Source?
My own accumulated research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Blair Russel is said to have moved from his natural position of center to allow Bowie to play there when they played together.
The page you linked actually says: "Russel played centre when Bowie was at his usual position of rover, but he shifted to right wing when Bowie moved up to forward."

Note that this indicates Bowie's usual position was rover, as I suggested. I have personally reviewed game reports of all games these players played, so I'm confident that I have their positions correct. I'm sure Bowie occasionally played centre, but rover was his primary position.

I wouldn't be too quick to accept that linked page as authoritative, since it doesn't recognize that rover was a forward position and that Russel did not retire when the ECAHA turned pro, playing a few games in the next couple of years in the IPAHU.

The Vics went through a variety of centres in the Bowie - Russel years, which I will not name since I imagine they're all undrafted here.

This is a random game summary from 1907, a game against Ottawa. Note Bowie is listed as the rover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
So, when Bowie and McDougall played together, and both were F, Bowie was obviously the C and MacDougall a W (RW you say, please show source)
It's possible, since Bowie and McDougall only ever played 4 games together, 2 in the regular season and 2 Stanley Cup games. So that's 4 out of Bowie's 84 career games.

McDougall retired after 1899, Bowie's rookie year.

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Old
07-11-2011, 09:30 PM
  #129
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Well..I won't lie. I have looked through a lot of guys and there are some risky picks I could make. However, I am going to go with a guy I have had on my team before. A feisty winger who could score a bit but was more known for his leadership and is an excellent glue guy for my top-6.

The Belleville Bulls select: LW - Jimmy Gardner


Last edited by chaosrevolver: 07-11-2011 at 09:35 PM.
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Old
07-11-2011, 09:40 PM
  #130
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
The Belleville Bulls select: LW - Jimmy Gardner
A HHOFer, and, if I'm not mistaken, the last of the 720 ATD 2010 picks not to go in the 1000-pick ATD 2011.

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07-11-2011, 09:41 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
A HHOFer, and, if I'm not mistaken, the last of the 720 ATD 2010 picks not to go in the 1000-pick ATD 2011.
I believe you are correct. Not an elite offensive MLD player, but he brings so much else to the table. Will be working on a bio..

NOTE: What I have found is that he was a great playoff performer.


Last edited by chaosrevolver: 07-11-2011 at 10:06 PM.
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Old
07-11-2011, 10:02 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
True, we got this impression from him also, but we did find this from Pelletier's page on him:

It might be early for him, but he was a guy that both Velociraptor and I had interest in. We didn't see too much difference between him and offensive specialists selected late in the ATD.
Anyone playing on the same position and team as Bill Hajt will almost be overlooked defensively every time. Guevremont is one of the best defensemen left on the board, he was a solid two-way defenseman. The defensive aspect of his game wasn't complete. He had a +47 season in Buffalo and he was then recognized as a serviceable two-way defender, there's obviously more magnified emphasis on his offensive ability, but he was by no means a strictly offensive defenseman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chidlovski
As a young prospect of the Canucks, Jocelyn Guevremont represented Vancouver in team Canada at the 1972 Summit. He was a soft blueliner with impressive puck handling skills and good sense of positional hockey. Besides the 1972 series where he didnít actually get a chance to play Team USSR, he showcase impressive defense performance against the Soviet Wings club during their 1975-76 Super Series game in Buffalo.
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...oster/ca37.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOH
As an offensive specialist, Guevremont continued his industrious efforts to shore up his defensive game. The results came to fruition after his trade to the Buffalo Sabres in 1974. There he succeeded in maintaining his offensive output while landing on the positive side of the plus/minus scale year in and year out.

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:10 PM
  #133
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Montreal Bad Habits select Dave Maloney D



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Old
07-11-2011, 10:17 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
So they're okay with not doing all they can to win in the regular season?
Honestly, the answer is "yes, for individual games." If a team tried as hard for every game in the regular season as in the playoffs, the players would be burnt out by the 20 game mark. I mean, we all watch the playoffs and see how much more intense they are, right? In the playoffs, they have a week and a half to two weeks of focusing on the same team.

These are human beings, not machines. If coaches spent as much time reviewing tape and constructing game plans for every team in the regular season, when would they sleep?

Much easier for players to remember and focus on tendencies when they face the same team 4-7 times in a row. These are athletes, not Rhodes scholars.

Plus the whole playing through injuries thing in the playoffs, you know?

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:18 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I believe you are correct. Not an elite offensive MLD player, but he brings so much else to the table. Will be working on a bio..

NOTE: What I have found is that he was a great playoff performer.
I really hope you can do a thorough bio. Info on physical play and defense would be very helpful.

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:27 PM
  #136
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wow. I wasn't going to take a defenseman, as I feel the values are the worst at that position (I'd rather take a defensive forward right now!) but Dave maloney was #1 on my list for that position. He has a good mx of everything - offense, defense, toughness - and he got good icetime for good teams.

this has actually been a phenomenally good draft so far. With the exception of Drozdetsky (who should have been), Guevremont (who turned out to still be a pretty decent pick) and Reibel, everyone taken has been at or near the top of my list for their position/role.

so what I'm trying to say is, this won't be as easy a pick as I had hoped for, heading into the draft. I'll be back with a pick soon.

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:28 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
wow. I wasn't going to take a defenseman, as I feel the values are the worst at that position (I'd rather take a defensive forward right now!) but Dave maloney was #1 on my list for that position. He has a good mx of everything - offense, defense, toughness - and he got good icetime for good teams.

this has actually been a phenomenally good draft so far. With the exception of Drozdetsky (who should have been), Guevremont (who turned out to still be a pretty decent pick) and Reibel, everyone taken has been at or near the top of my list for their position/role.

so what I'm trying to say is, this won't be as easy a pick as I had hoped for, heading into the draft. I'll be back with a pick soon.
and here I was wondering if I made a fool of myself lmao

But I exclusively wanted a defenseman with my 1st pick and no other dman really caught my intention like Maloney for his versatility.

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07-11-2011, 11:20 PM
  #138
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Hmmm, I guess I lied. I am taking a defenseman after all. I can't figure out if I was just wrong that there were no good values, or if the lack of choice on D compared to other positions makes him stand out more at his position right now. But I guess either one is a good reason to take him. I was never too thrilled with him in the past, but then I never had a chance to take him post-pick 1000.

This guy had a very strong offensive start to his career in the WHA, leading all WHA defensemen in points twice at age 20 and 21 in 1978 and 1979. He then came over to the NHL and had a strong campaign as Hartford's #4, and then his career really took off.

Following a midseason acquisition, he played the most minutes for the cinderella cup finalist North Stars. For the next four seasons he was Minnesota's #2 defenseman, behind Hartsburg three times and Maxwell once. They were a very good team in three of these four years. For four seasons he settled into a #4 role before playing as St. Louis' #1 defenseman in 1989. In 1991 and 1992 he contributed to two Stanley Cups as Pittsburgh's #5 defenseman and surprisingly in 1993 was 3rd on the Bruins D corps in TOI behind Wesley and Bourque. (Fellow 35-36 year olds Langway and Carlyle were 11-13-minute shadows of themselves, while Doug Wilson played 22 minutes but just for 40 games and for an awful team) In his final NHL season, he played limited minutes but was the NHL's 6th-oldest player, having played 1408 pro games, displaying outstanding longevity in an era where it was actually quite rare.

A very good mix of offense, defense, and physicality, and played 21.5 minutes per game for 1097 NHL games, and contributed mostly to above average teams, that missed the playoffs just once in 19 seasons, and made it to round 2 or further 13 times (153 NHL playoff games; 199 including WHA, only missed 6 of his teams' 205 playoff games, the most experienced playoff performer available, only one player is even within 50):

Gordie Roberts



Last edited by seventieslord: 07-11-2011 at 11:53 PM.
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Old
07-11-2011, 11:28 PM
  #139
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Honestly, the answer is "yes, for individual games." If a team tried as hard for every game in the regular season as in the playoffs, the players would be burnt out by the 20 game mark.
We're not talking about physical effort though. We were discussing strategy and tactics. Coaches don't coach alone, either. They don't need to be up all night themselves reviewing tape.

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:31 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gordie Roberts

I came close to choosing Roberts and wished he would have been available in 2 pick when it's my turn to pick to form a Maloney-Roberts pairing.

He was 2nd on my list.

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07-11-2011, 11:39 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's not "magically different," but some players either can't handle the increased level of competition, or have games that don't translate well into the playoffs (perhaps a certain flaw in their game that opponents can take advantage of over a seven game series).
Well, there are the OHA playoff statistics that we can go off of for an indication of his performance in his prime, but again it's not much. 10 points (8G, 2A) in 6 games (1.66PPG), whereas he was around 2.3 PPG in the regular season. Then again given the timeframe we're talking about the discrepancy between the OHA in the regular season and those that made the playoffs was probably huge. Unproven is probably the best way to describe him at this point since 6 in one and 7 in the other isn't much of anything to go off of.

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:41 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gordie Roberts
I remember him! He was a rock I recall.



Quote:
Known for his rugged style of play and dependability, Gordie Roberts was also an excellent offensive-minded defenseman who could rush the puck up the ice in a hurry.
http://www.usahockey.com/ushhof/defa...tailedNews=yes

He was the North Stars' MVP in '83 and voted the team's best dman the following season, the year he was on the U.S.'s Canada Cup team. He is in the record books for some historically noteworthy stats:

* In Hartford, he scored a goal in his first NHL game, which was also the first goal scored in Hartford/Carolina franchise history.

* He had assisted on Gordie Howe's final NHL goal during Hartford's April 6, 1980, game vs. Detroit.

* He became the first U.S.-born player in NHL history to play 1,000 games, a feat he achieved during Boston's Dec. 9, 1992, game at Buffalo.

He is clearly a top pairing dman in this draft (Top 10 dman in this draft? Arguably. Top 6? I don't think so, but there's some gems eligible imo. I can see others thinking him so. He certainly is a quality anchor in this 14-team draft at a position without 28 blueliners worthy of top pairing!)

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:50 PM
  #143
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With the 14th and 15th picks in the MLD draft, the Thunder Bay Twins are proud to select:

Left Winger Steve Payne

From Legends of Hockey:

In his sophomore season Payne established career highs in goals with 42 and points with 85 while making his NHL All-Star Game debut earlier in the year. Payne was an instrumental in leading the North Stars to the Stanley Cup final in 1981 against the eventual Cup champion New York Islanders. In 19 playoff games, Payne recorded 29 points (17-12-29). Payne went on to play parts of ten seasons in Minnesota, and had seven consecutive 20+ goal seasons before calling it a career early into the 1987-88 season.

Throughout his 10-year career Payne played in 613 games and finished with 466 points (228-238-466), while appearing in two All-Star Games (1980, 1985).


and

Center Ivan Boldirev

From Legends of Hockey:

Centre Ivan Boldirev was a superior puck handler with a natural touch around the net. He spent 15 years in the league with six different clubs and recorded nine 20-goal seasons.

Boldirev averaged over a point per game for his new club but the Flames were knocked out in the first round of the post-season. The next February he was traded to the Vancouver Canucks to add playmaking savvy and experience to the club. His best season came in 1981-82 when he scored 33 goals and notched eight playoff markers as the club reach the Stanley Cup finals for the first time.

Midway through the 1982-83 season he was traded to the Detroit Red Wings. Boldirev set a career-high in 1983-84 with 35 goals and helped Detroit qualify for the playoffs for only the second time in twelve years.

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07-12-2011, 12:01 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJudge View Post
Left Winger Steve Payne
My North Stars are getting some r-e-s-p-e-c-t! He only had 7 full seasons but over a six-season stretch he averaged 30 goals a season and scored 70 playoff points in 71 postseason games. A solid, all-time great peak albeit lesser overall career.



Quote:
Steve was big at 6'2" and 205lbs. He was a bit like John Leclair, although he was criticized for underachieving.

At one time he was as strong a skater as there was, though lacked agility. The knee injury all but removed what speed and agility he had. He remained strong on his skates, but checkers could knock him off the puck much easier.

Steve, who was at times lazy defensively, was never a great physical player despite his size. With the tremendous agony of the injury he became even more shy of contact, thus making him a perimeter player.
http://northstarslegends.blogspot.co...eve-payne.html


Last edited by VanIslander: 07-12-2011 at 12:08 AM.
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Old
07-12-2011, 12:09 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
We're not talking about physical effort though. We were discussing strategy and tactics. Coaches don't coach alone, either. They don't need to be up all night themselves reviewing tape.
It seems to me that the limiting factor would be the players' ability to absorb information from the coach, not the amount of information that the coach has. Coaches can't just gather a ton of information and then dump it all on the team. They have to choose the most important information to communicate to the players. During a regular season of 82 games with 29 opponents, that information may be less likely to include a detailed scouting report and game plan tailored to the opponents as it would in a 7 game series against 1 opponent.

Also, scouting reports are all well and good, but if you want to learn how to play against an opponent there's nothing like repeatedly playing against them.

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07-12-2011, 12:13 AM
  #146
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I came close to choosing Roberts and wished he would have been available in 2 pick when it's my turn to pick to form a Maloney-Roberts pairing.

He was 2nd on my list.
That's crazy... heading in, my list was also Maloney followed by Roberts. However, having spent a lot of the evening agonizing over the two, I could go either way.

I'll have to do more research to see who is tougher, as the PIM stats don't really tell us much. I'm guessing Maloney, because, well, he's a Maloney.

They actually have really similar offensive peaks, each with three 44+ point seasons in the NHL, but Roberts has those two excellent WHA years.

Maloney went to the finals two years before Roberts did, but he was just the #5, not the #1.

Defensively, it appears Roberts' reputation is stronger. Although his career adjusted +/- is only +25, as opposed to Maloney's +80.

Both had almost identical icetime usage. Roberts was 21.5 minutes in his career, Maloney 21.4. Roberts had 20% PP usage, Maloney 22%. Roberts had 39% PK usage, Maloney 42%. The kicker is that Roberts did it for 114% more regular season games, and 4 times as many playoff games.

Yeah, I'd have to say the longevity does it for me. If Maloney was dominant and fearsome physically, I can be swayed, but otherwise I'm really happy with how things went.

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07-12-2011, 12:18 AM
  #147
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It seems the more I look at this guy in comparison to other available goalies from future generations, the more comfortable I get about picking him.

Billy Nicholson, G

pasting in my bio from last MLD:



- 5'10, 220 lbs
- Stanley Cup (1902, 1903)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1904)
- Intermediate CAHL Champion (1900)
- IHL and US Pro Champion (1905)
- Fit-Reform Cup (1909)
- ECAHA 2nd All-Star Team (1908)
- TPHL 1st All-Star Team (1909)
- League GAA Leader (1900-CAHLi, 1905-IHL, 1909-TPHL)
- League Wins Leader (1902-CAHL, 1904-FAHL, 1905-IHL)
- Had a record of 87-86-1 in 177 official games, with a cumulative GAA of 4.03 and 11 shutouts
- 4-2-2 in Stanley Cup play, with a 1.88 GAA and 1 shutout
- Retired in 1917, at age 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Hockey
William Nicholson was one of the fattest men ever to play hockey at the semi-professional or professional level. Originally the goalie for the Montreal AAA "Little Men of Iron" -- circa 1901 -- he has been called the first true "butterfly" goalie. He was flopping to the ice to make saves at least 10 years before Clint Benedict, the goalie who has been generally credited with pioneering the style.

Throughout most of his career Nicholson was a solid, dependable goalkeeper. He played on some poor teams, such as the 1907-08 Shamrocks and 1912-13 Toronto Tecumsehs. He rounded out his career with the Toronto Arenas in 1916-17.

The sight of Nicholson in full uniform, wearing his trademark toque and weighing anywhere from 250 to 275 pounds, must have been delicious. Apparently, whenever he crashed down onto the ice to make a save, everyone would hold their breath in fear that the ice would crack. He was surprisingly athletic, though, despite the constraints of his plus-sized frame. His career, while not of Hockey Hall of Fame caliber, compares favorably to the goaltending standard of his era.
Up until now, not much is known about Nicholson aside from that he was portly and acrobatic and won a Cup. Let's take a look at what else I could find:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1900-02-19
Nicholson, the Montreal goalkeeper, was in great form.
This is about where the characterization of "Nicholson the Martyr" begins:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1903-01-19
The holders of the Stanley Cup, the Montrealers, were defeated by the Ottawas at Dey's rink, Saturday night, by a score of 7 to 1. Nicholson's exceptionally good work between the poles was the reason for the score not being larger... Billy Gilmour threw in some cannonball shots at Nicholson, and it was only hard luck that prevented him from adding more goals to his list... Suddie shot hard and accurately when opportunity offered, but bothered Nicholson not a little.
Really good account of Nicholson at his peak. He was a major part of Montreal's success, a very aggressive goalie who in this case actually made the play that started the rush back for a goal, thanks to his aggression on the puck carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen, 1904-01-21
Nicholson was in fine form and he needed it... the last couple of minutes, the Maroon jerseys sent in shot after shot and Nicholson had to move his padding over the glacial... Caps came very close to scoring when Sims got in, but Nick did his old trick of sliding out and falling down on the puck. It worked, and ***** got away for a shot by Marshall which scored.
Looks like the next goalie was being judged by the standard Nicholson set:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1904-12-27
Brighton, who guarded the nets for the Wanderers, made good, and is certainly a worthy successor of his predecessor, Billy Nicholson, now with the Calumets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Press, 1905-01-08
Nicholson played a wonderful game, stopping shot after shot that looked like a score for the gold and black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1905-01-10
If the locals happened to get past Stuart and ********, they had Nicholson to reckon with, and the score shows that none of the shots directed at his net were permitted to land on the inside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Press, 1906-01-27
Pittsburgh would have rolled up a bigger score against Calumet last night had it not been for the great work in goal of Nicholson, who stopped many clever shots.
Nicholson may have had a temper, too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Press, 1906-02-12
****** had rushed the puck down to the Calumet net and passed close to the goal, when Nicholson gave him a mighty smash on the hand. After the game, ******** told Nicholson that he had no reason in the world to make a play like that, and asked why he had done it. Nicholson answered that the Pittsburgh seven had been showing him up all game, and he had to do something to get even. Be that as it may, there is no doubt that the condition of *******'s hand is such that it will keep him out of the game for quite a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Press, 1906-02-15
********** and Nicholson are both at the top in the goaltending line, and their phenomenal stops Tuesday night saved their teams many goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh press, 1907-01-28
Reports from Calumet say the playing of ********** at goal was the finest ever witnessed on the ice in that city, and this is saying a great deal, for it must be remembered that that team has a good goaltender in Nicholson that is second to none in the country.
More dirty stuff:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Press, 1907-02-13
Even Nicholson got in his dirty work. Once, as captain Campbell skated across the ice in front of the Calumet net, Nicholson deliberately took his stick and slashed him across the ankles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen, 1908-01-20
Laviolette and ******** were the pick of the Shamrocks, Nicholson doing fine work in the nets.
A mixed review from 1908. Apparently Nicholson was excellent aside from two softies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1908-01-22
Nicholson, who stopped a dozen times when he seemed helpless before Stuart, Russell, or Blachford, was twice beaten out by Johnson on long range shots, which looked easy to stop... Hern had a comparitively easy time of it, while Nicholson was doing a big night's work in the second half. This was due largely to the fact that the Shamrock centremen were not taking advantage of their chances... The Shamrock defense again proved itself to be a good one, Pitre, Laviolette and Nicholson all in turn doing fine work in keeping down the score, especially when the line in front of them began to weaken. Nicholson was beaten by two long shots, but clever dives to meet oncoming rushes and heady work in baffling scrimmages around the net saved the Shamrocks.
This one was after a 12-7 loss!:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Times, 1908-03-19
The goalkeeping of Nicholson was the star feature of the game.
When Edmonton was trying to assemble a team of ringers to challenge for the cup in 1909 (Lester Patrick, Tommy Phillips, Didier Pitre, Fred Whitcroft), Nicholson was one player they pursued as a goalie. They eventually went with a different guy, but Nicholson did stick around and win two games to help them win the Fit-Reform cup (I have no idea what this is, but the stats for it are listed in SIHR and the newspaper mentions it too) - Nicholson played two of the 7 games, sporting a 3.50 GAA, compared to the 4.50 and 5.67 the other two goalies had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1908-12-22
Another local addition to the ranks of the challengers today will be Billy Nicholson, goalkeeper of the Shamrock team of last winter that had the best defense record in the ECHA. "Nick" last night agreed to turn out today and help Edmonton during their training for the cup series, and it would not be surprising if he appeared in the challengers' lineup before the series is over. At his best there are few better net guardians in the business than the big fellow who has played successfully with Montreal, Wanderers, Calumet and Shamrocks.
When he returned, there was no shortage of interest in his services:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1909-01-22
Billy Nicholson, who went west with Fred Whitcroft's Edmonton team, is back in Montreal, having left the Stanley Cup challengers after the Winnipeg series. Nicholson has three offers to play with teams in the Cobalt league, but has not decided whether to leave Montreal or not.
Another quote showing that Nicholson was considered a good goalie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen, 1909-09-21
For goalkeepers, they ought to be well-satisfied. Besides Billy Nicholson, who performed in the flags last year, they have Percy Lesueur, of last year's Ottawas...
A quite humourous story about Nicholson from 1910:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Renfrew Millionaires
...finally Art Ross passed to ****** **** who shot the puck past *****. Haileybury had won! From the galleries, crowded with Cobalt supporters, there came cries of despair. Suddenly from the weight of humanity, the railing collapsed; many fans tumbled 15 feet to the ice and some were so seriously injured that they had to be taken to the hospital in sleighs. Thy hysteria continued. Winning fans showered pennies, dimes, quarters, even dollars on the ice. The air was filled with greenbacks and the players were trying to catch their floating fortune on the fly. But Billy Nicholson somehow obtained a tub and any money iced in his vicinity was quickly snared and tubbed. When he could find no more loot, and the sweat was pouring from his brow, he calmly turned the tub and its contents upside down and sat on it so that no one could dislodge him or the money. How much money he collected, Nick never admitted, but there were guesses that he wouldn't have to work for a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, 1913-02-10
Nicholson played a remarkable game in goal... Both ***** and Nicholson were called on to turn many shots aside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto World, 1914-02-05
NICHOLSON, THE GREAT, IN GRAND FORM - Billy Nicholson, who was re-signed after being released on Monday, played a game in goal that has not been surpassed here all season...
Moran, LeSueur, Hern.... Nicholson?

These four are truly contemporaries, all born between 1877 and 1891. The earliest of their statistically recorded careers started in the 1900 season (Nicholson) and ended in the 1917 season (Nicholson, Moran). During this time, they all played in a variety of leagues, getting a good sample of competition, scoring level, and rules. For an eight-year period from the 1904 season, when Lesueur started, through 1911, when Hern retired, these four were all active in top-level hockey together.

It is my contention that Nicholson's goaltending stats stand up very well to those of these three HHOF goaltenders:

 Reg.      St-Cup      
Name/LeaguesGPWLTwin%SOGAAGPWLTwin%SOGAA
Nicholson/817787861.503114.038422.62511.88
Hern/613490412.68454.07141040.71403.86
Lesueur/616796681.58564.369720.77804.44
Moran/52081001060.48625.2744001.00012.00

Why did they get in the hall and he didn't?

They are all multiple cup winners; however, he faced probably the stiffest competition in his cup matches, along with Hern, yet, he has the best playoff GAA of the four.

Was it a longevity thing? No, he played more games than LeSueur and a lot more than Hern.

Was it his GAA? Doesn't look like it. His career average edges Hern and is significantly better than Lesueur and Moran.

Then it must be his win%, barely over .500. However, Moran made it into the Hall with a losing record. And although GAA is a team stat, it tells a better story of his individual performance than win% does.

What about honours and awards? That's not it, either. Nicholson was a champion in two other leagues, a league all-star in two leagues, and led leagues in GAA and wins multiple times, just as often as the other three did.

In all honesty, it's pretty hard to tell what made them any better than him.

Finally, as this picture from 1914 will attest to, the rumours of his weight being 250-275 pounds are very exaggerated. His SIHR-listed weight of 220 pounds is almost certainly the best guess.


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07-12-2011, 12:32 AM
  #148
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I would love to see newspaper articles comparing Nicholsson to his contemporaries written by people who actually saw them.

Given that scoring levels and competition varied wildly from team to team, league to league, season to season, back then, I don't think comparing career GAAs is all that helpful. If you have time, doing "with and without" GAA study like HO did for Benedict could be helpful.

I like the quote, "At his best there are few better net guardians in the business." Kind of implies that there were, in fact, better ones, right? Perhaps the three in the HHOF?

I like the Gordie Roberts pick - a guy who wasn't great at anything, but was pretty good at everything.

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07-12-2011, 12:34 AM
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Seventies, I swear I think you did this just to have a debate with Paton and him.

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07-12-2011, 12:42 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post

Goal Scoring Study, pre-1899

PlayerGamesGoalsGoals/GameDraft Position
Haviland Routh23321.391834
Robert MacDougall36491.3611,010
Clarence McKerrow27341.260573
Harry Trihey1617.941764
Alf Smith2422.917282
Dolly Swift4337.860823
Graham Drinkwater3728.757443
Harry Westwick2616.615434

Stats taken from here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=6678639

Looking at these numbers, I don't see why McDougall isn't taken much higher.
Yes, maybe, but I don't know how much higher.

- Smith goes as high as he does because he has long term sustained offensive performance (not just up to 1899 but well into the next generation), and his intangibles are legendary.
- Westwick is the same, just to a lesser degree.
- Drinkwater should not go as high as he does until we know more about the guy. His best points right now are that he's in the HHOF and that he played C and D (his GPG average would be much better if it included only games played at C)
- I have no idea why McKerrow got taken so high. It got into someone's head that he can be an ATD checking line center and I'm not sure why.
- Trihey is a passable 4th liner mainly for his leadership. He was very dominant offensively but also for a very short time. No problem with him in the mid-700s.
- Swift is a fine pick at 823, provided he can actually play some D as well. I was always pretty sure he was just a forward, but a couple guys said he was multipositional.
- Routh might have been the premier skilled forward of this era. and he's a RW which should make it easier to crack an ATD top-6. Still, no one had the guts to put him in a top-6, they could only make him a spare. The lack of information on his style of play coupled with UH's (intentional?) characterization of him as a one-dimensional player puts anyone considering him in a tough spot.

With that said, I think McDougall is at least Routh's equal. He scored just as frequently, and he did it for longer. He also had more playoff experience. Is he "better enough" to score a role as a lower-tier 2nd line winger? He might be, if it can be shown that he possessed some other intangibles. Actually, then he'd be a shoo-in for a 4th line role at least. As it stands, when given the chance, GMs will always take someone who they can demonstrate was good.

Without knowing more, I think you got McDougall at about a 150-pick discount. I can update that if better info is provided.


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-12-2011 at 12:48 AM.
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