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Vladimir Tarasenko

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Old
07-11-2011, 08:22 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I really like Tarasenko, though admittedly I've only been able to watch full games of his at the last two WJCs. He has a game built for North American hockey IMO, he's very strong on his skates, seems unafraid of contact (huge difference from Filatov here), great hands, quite a good skater (not a "beautiful" stride, but very good acceleration and a solid, wide stance), fairly high all around skill level and a beauty of a shot, he's not one of these "all flash, no substance guys" that get teams in trouble, he does his work quickly and efficiently. Filatov and Zherdev comparisons are unwarranted IMO, he plays nothing like them. I see his upside as a sort of Radulov/Kulemin hybrid, mid way between the two in terms of skill, hustle, strength on skates, etc., hopefully with more of a Kulemin type personality.

There's always a risk with Russian players that they won't come over, but for guys with Tarasenko's potential, they generally DO come to the NHL. He's also had a few injuries, but I don't think they've been too bad - broken orbital bone and a not-too-severe shoulder injury if I remember correctly? If he comes over and is healthy, I'd be pretty excited about him as a Blues fan, seems like a very legit NHL talent.
Yes, the first injury you noted required him to wear a cage for a little while in his draft year and he missed about a month last season due to a separated shoulder but it wasn't bad (it only caused him to miss a month, didn't require surgery or anything).

I wouldn't go as far as TheBakester66 in terms of predicting how well he'll do once he reaches the NHL but I think he's a very legit top prospect and has 1st line potential but will likely start out on the 3rd line his 1st year in the NHL...and it's not like he would be playing with bad players on the 3rd line for the Blues. They have Backes, Stewart, Berglund, Oshie, Perron, McDonald, Steen & D'Agostini and who knows what they'll do with Arnott & Langenbrunner a year from now (probably not bring one of them back to make room for Tarasenko).

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07-12-2011, 01:14 AM
  #27
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Who was the last Russian drafted in the first round that never spent a season in North America?

Doesn't really matter where the season was, major-juniors, NCAA, AHL, ECHL, NHL, etc.

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07-12-2011, 01:19 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Who was the last Russian drafted in the first round that never spent a season in North America?

Doesn't really matter where the season was, major-juniors, NCAA, AHL, ECHL, NHL, etc.
Cherepanov :/

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07-12-2011, 02:27 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
The effort and physicality of Filatov and Tarasenko are worlds apart. Tarasenko plays a similar game to Ovie...going around or through defenders at all costs. His top end skill/all around game aren't quite in Ovie territory, but it's much, much higher than Filatov. The guy has been playing a physical style with men for the last 2 years.

Relevant
Lolz. Filatov was rated second best forward after Stamkos in 2008 and Filatov's skill level and projection was through the roof.

Filatov racked up almost a PPG in the KHL when he was there and Tarasenko has to do more than that next year for him to be "much, much higher than Filatov."

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07-12-2011, 02:48 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPD View Post
Cherepanov :/
Not cool.

I know your just answering but he didn't mean it that way and you know it.


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07-12-2011, 02:56 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Lolz. Filatov was rated second best forward after Stamkos in 2008 and Filatov's skill level and projection was through the roof.

Filatov racked up almost a PPG in the KHL when he was there and Tarasenko has to do more than that next year for him to be "much, much higher than Filatov."
I won't argue how players were ranked going into a draft. That crap is nonsense to me.

But regarding honest projections, "current level of production" is a way of thinking that seems to dominate these boards, but obviously doesn't dominate the world of actual player development. There are guys who get over a point per game in the AHL, but cannot hack it in the NHL. And there are guys who get below a point per game in the AHL and continue to grow, becoming great NHLers. The same goes for every league, and it's especially true that the future is uncertain for a kid playing in a man's league.

As far as I'm concerned we could do away with the idea of more or less skilled and replace it with more or less able. Determination, character, leadership, physicality, play all over the ice, and many other abilities determine success in ways that skill alone cannot. Talk up Filatov's numbers all you like, but he and Tarasenko are cut from different cloth.

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07-12-2011, 03:17 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Who was the last Russian drafted in the first round that never spent a season in North America?
Doesn't really matter where the season was, major-juniors, NCAA, AHL, ECHL, NHL, etc.
Not counting the two most recent draft classes and Cherepanov, it was Artem Kryukov - #15 in 2000.

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07-12-2011, 03:23 AM
  #33
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Is Tarasenko signed?

With the cap going up the way it has, is there any chance he holds out to go back into the draft in order to sign a bigger contract? Also, if there is a work stoppage next year, why would he sign in the NHL rather than playing in Russia?

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07-12-2011, 06:40 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post

Filatov racked up almost a PPG in the KHL when he was there and Tarasenko has to do more than that next year for him to be "much, much higher than Filatov."
i personally like Filatov a lot but his perfomance in KHL wasnt as good as it look at first sight(22 points in 26 games), he had 12 points in his first 6 or 7 games and then only 10 in another 20 games.

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07-12-2011, 07:06 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I really like Tarasenko, though admittedly I've only been able to watch full games of his at the last two WJCs. He has a game built for North American hockey IMO, he's very strong on his skates, seems unafraid of contact (huge difference from Filatov here), great hands, quite a good skater (not a "beautiful" stride, but very good acceleration and a solid, wide stance), fairly high all around skill level and a beauty of a shot, he's not one of these "all flash, no substance guys" that get teams in trouble, he does his work quickly and efficiently. Filatov and Zherdev comparisons are unwarranted IMO, he plays nothing like them. I see his upside as a sort of Radulov/Kulemin hybrid, mid way between the two in terms of skill, hustle, strength on skates, etc., hopefully with more of a Kulemin type personality.

There's always a risk with Russian players that they won't come over, but for guys with Tarasenko's potential, they generally DO come to the NHL. He's also had a few injuries, but I don't think they've been too bad - broken orbital bone and a not-too-severe shoulder injury if I remember correctly? If he comes over and is healthy, I'd be pretty excited about him as a Blues fan, seems like a very legit NHL talent.
I can at least speak for my comment, i wasn't comparing him to Zherdev or Filatov and agree that they are completely different players. My comment was explaining why he won't have transitional issues because he's not like those guys. Not sure about the Radulov/Kulemin hybrid, I couldn't really come up with a good Russian comparison to be honest with you. To me he just feels like Jaromir Jagr. The strength on his skates and willingness to go through/around guys just feels like Jagr. Are his skills as elite as Jagr's, (even at the same age) probably not, but then again, his creativity and ability to work in small spaces and get shots off from pretty much anywhere with power remind me of Jagr.

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07-12-2011, 10:38 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slitty View Post
Not counting the two most recent draft classes and Cherepanov, it was Artem Kryukov - #15 in 2000.
Thank you. I wasn't really sure, and I hear about "the Russian factor" a lot, so I was wondering.

Now, I realize that just because they played one season at some level in N.A. doesn't mean they were worth the first round pick.


R.I.P. Cherepanov.

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07-12-2011, 11:14 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Lolz. Filatov was rated second best forward after Stamkos in 2008 and Filatov's skill level and projection was through the roof.

Filatov racked up almost a PPG in the KHL when he was there and Tarasenko has to do more than that next year for him to be "much, much higher than Filatov."
Speed and stick skills rarely mean squat in the NHL. Tarasenko's 2-way effort, physical game, and near equal offensive skill-set place his skill-set at a much higher level if we're just looking on the surface.

Also, Tarasenko's skill-set rivaled Hall and Seguin...not bad company. And, if I remember correctly, there was a noted drop outside the top 5 in the Stamkos, Doughty, Pietrangelo year, no? It was a fantastic draft year, but I believe the aforementioned (along with Bogosian) were touted as elite talent (similar to Hall and Seguin). There wasn't much debate that those 4 players were going 1-4...

Regardless, VT hasn't played in the NHL and Filatov hasn't -yet- adapted to the more-physical game. Hopefully both players succeed.


Last edited by taylord22: 07-12-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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07-12-2011, 11:36 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Yeah. And unlike Kabanov he's lucky with his father...
Completely agree.

Having a passionate 22 yr. pro as a father has been a huge help to Vlad. Hopefully he gets a little more ice 5-5 and a lot more on the PP.

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07-12-2011, 11:55 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBakester66 View Post
I can at least speak for my comment, i wasn't comparing him to Zherdev or Filatov and agree that they are completely different players. My comment was explaining why he won't have transitional issues because he's not like those guys. Not sure about the Radulov/Kulemin hybrid, I couldn't really come up with a good Russian comparison to be honest with you. To me he just feels like Jaromir Jagr. The strength on his skates and willingness to go through/around guys just feels like Jagr. Are his skills as elite as Jagr's, (even at the same age) probably not, but then again, his creativity and ability to work in small spaces and get shots off from pretty much anywhere with power remind me of Jagr.
He's a hard player to pin down thats for sure. Almost a Krutov and Makarov mix.

One thing that he has over Jags at the same age is that he moves the puck really well and understands team play. Knowing how to give up the puck, support the play and get open for passes is something that makes me think he'll be very good right away.

I'm really hoping that he gets time with Berglund because I think they would mesh well.

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07-12-2011, 12:52 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Talk up Filatov's numbers all you like, but he and Tarasenko are cut from different cloth.
I was arguing the fact that the person I quoted said Tarasenko's high-end skill is much, much higher than Filatov's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
Speed and stick skills rarely mean squat in the NHL. Tarasenko's 2-way effort, physical game, and near equal offensive skill-set place his skill-set at a much higher level if we're just looking on the surface.
What?

The new NHL is BASED on speed and stick skills.

See: Jeff Skinner, Erik Karlsson, Tobias Enstrom, Patrick Kane.

Also I don't get your rebuttal here...

Filatov is to Patrick Kane as Tarasenko is to Toews.

Just because Toews has 2 way effort, physical game and near equal offensive skill-set to the players in his draft year does not mean he is bounds and leaps over Kane's offensive skill set, there is a word for that that many HFboarders love, Intangibles. It's actually Kane who wins in terms of skill against Toews.

If you told me that Tarasenko is a better player to form a franchise around and better player in all-situations I would agree but not in terms of high-end skill.


Last edited by ReginKarlssonLehner: 07-12-2011 at 12:58 PM.
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07-12-2011, 01:13 PM
  #41
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LOL at "ReginKarlssonLehner" suddenly becoming a huge Filatov defender the moment he gets traded to Ottawa. Filatov is incredibly skilled without a doubt, but his main problem in the NHL (IMO) is that he simply cannot handle the physicality of the North American game. I've watched a number of his NHL games, he really shies away from contact and avoids the danger areas, doesn't help that he's already been rocked by a few huge hits in his short time here either. Tarasenko, on the other hand, is very strong on the puck and seems to enjoy the physical aspect of the game, I don't see him wilting under hard checking like Filatov does. You talk about Kane, but small as Kane is he's very strong on the puck, knows how to protect himself, and has no problem being effective in the danger areas. Same with Skinner. Karlsson and Enstrom aren't really comparable because they're dmen, they don't need to go to the danger areas to the same extent.

Agreed that Filatov is ahead of Taraenko in terms of pure skating and puck handling, but after seeing how poorly Filatov has handled contact so far, I'm much higher on Tarasenko.

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07-12-2011, 01:14 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I was arguing the fact that the person I quoted said Tarasenko's high-end skill is much, much higher than Filatov's.



What?

The new NHL is BASED on speed and stick skills.

See: Jeff Skinner, Erik Karlsson, Tobias Enstrom, Patrick Kane.

Also I don't get your rebuttal here...

Filatov is to Patrick Kane as Tarasenko is to Toews.

Just because Toews has 2 way effort, physical game and near equal offensive skill-set to the players in his draft year does not mean he is bounds and leaps over Kane's offensive skill set, there is a word for that that many HFboarders love, Intangibles. It's actually Kane who wins in terms of skill against Toews.

If you told me that Tarasenko is a better player to form a franchise around and better player in all-situations I would agree but not in terms of high-end skill.

I would think if Kane or Skinner played 75 games in the AHL they would have more than 52 points.

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07-12-2011, 03:11 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blane Youngblood View Post
Is Tarasenko signed?

With the cap going up the way it has, is there any chance he holds out to go back into the draft in order to sign a bigger contract? Also, if there is a work stoppage next year, why would he sign in the NHL rather than playing in Russia?
Tarasenko isn't signed yet but even if he remains unsigned 2 years after his draft, Russians don't re-enter the draft like the other Euro draftees do since there is no transfer agreement in place with the Russian Federation. Until/unless they come to a transfer agreement, the NHL has determined that as far as the NHL rights for these players go, teams hold the rights of players drafted out of Russia in perpetuity.

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07-12-2011, 03:42 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I was arguing the fact that the person I quoted said Tarasenko's high-end skill is much, much higher than Filatov's.



What?

The new NHL is BASED on speed and stick skills.

See: Jeff Skinner, Erik Karlsson, Tobias Enstrom, Patrick Kane.

Also I don't get your rebuttal here...

Filatov is to Patrick Kane as Tarasenko is to Toews.

Just because Toews has 2 way effort, physical game and near equal offensive skill-set to the players in his draft year does not mean he is bounds and leaps over Kane's offensive skill set, there is a word for that that many HFboarders love, Intangibles. It's actually Kane who wins in terms of skill against Toews.

If you told me that Tarasenko is a better player to form a franchise around and better player in all-situations I would agree but not in terms of high-end skill.

If the NHL is BASED on speed and stick skill...why hasn't Filatov busted in? Zherdev? Why isn't Afinigenov the leading scorer? The game is faster and takes a certain level of skill...those players that you named are much more anomalous than the norm (plus skinner and Enstrom are not all speed puck skill).

Kane wins in-terms of skating, puck-handling, and maybe release. But, if I had to pick which one I wanted to go 1-1 with an elite defender it would be Toews every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Strength on the puck, to me, is a much more valuable high-end skill than stick work and speed.

Defenders are getting faster and faster to the point where it makes it almost as hard as it once was to pull off flashy dekes. There's not a lot of walking around defenders that takes place from shift-to-shift. By comparison, strength on the puck is valuable every shift.

And lets not forget that defensive skill-sets are a part of "skill-set"...you seem to be ignoring this throughout your arguments. The all-around, high-end, skill-set of Tarasenko is much, much higher.

As far as what I'm trying to tell you about Tarasenko vs Filatov, from what I've seen Tarasenko will be more offensively effective in the NHL. The reason, aside from his near equal puck handling and skating attributes, is that he is stronger on the puck than most current NHLers (and Filatov)...and he's more than capable of abandoning going through a defender and instead going around them -- using his high end skill.

Again, my assessment means squat...and none of this matters until they are both in the NHL...but if you honestly cant see the difference between these two then...

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07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I was arguing the fact that the person I quoted said Tarasenko's high-end skill is much, much higher than Filatov's.



What?

The new NHL is BASED on speed and stick skills.

See: Jeff Skinner, Erik Karlsson, Tobias Enstrom, Patrick Kane.

Also I don't get your rebuttal here...

Filatov is to Patrick Kane as Tarasenko is to Toews.

Just because Toews has 2 way effort, physical game and near equal offensive skill-set to the players in his draft year does not mean he is bounds and leaps over Kane's offensive skill set, there is a word for that that many HFboarders love, Intangibles. It's actually Kane who wins in terms of skill against Toews.

If you told me that Tarasenko is a better player to form a franchise around and better player in all-situations I would agree but not in terms of high-end skill.


Why isn't Filatov in this league? Why aren't Zherdev and Afinogenov at the top of the leader boards? The game may be more based on speed and skill than before -- but skill does not mean puckhandling only...it's all-around high-end skill. In fact, I would say that strength on the puck is far more valuable than puckhanding.

Defenders are faster than ever before -- very rarely does a forward walk or deke around one. By converse, almost every shift is affected by a player who is strong on the puck.

Patrick Kane may be faster, and have fancier stick-work than Toews, but I'll take Toews 1-1 against a top defender over Kane every day of the week. And I doubt that opinion is in the minority.

As far as prospect comparison.
Assessments of skill are usually worthless until said players are in the NHL. But, in this case, there is a fairly substantial gap between the all-around skill of these two players.

My assessment is next to worthless, but I think most would agree:

Filatov is a marginally better puckhandler
Tarasenko is much, much stronger on the puck

What makes Tarasenko more high-end in this department is that he is able to both through and around defenders. He has the ability to go from powering through somebody, to dancing around them with fancy stick work...that combination is dangerous, and something that Filatov does not have in his game.

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07-12-2011, 04:23 PM
  #46
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This was a great trade for St. Louis. Rundbald may be the flavour right now now that everyone is salivating over, but I still like Tarensenko a lot. I think he should have been a top 10 pick.

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07-12-2011, 05:01 PM
  #47
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Anytime you are given a nickname like heart attack kids then it must mean for something. Vt looks like a great prospect but I think more of a two way threat than a pure offense machine.

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07-12-2011, 07:03 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post

If the NHL is BASED on speed and stick skill...why hasn't Filatov busted in? Zherdev? Why isn't Afinigenov the leading scorer? The game is faster and takes a certain level of skill...those players that you named are much more anomalous than the norm (plus skinner and Enstrom are not all speed puck skill).

Kane wins in-terms of skating, puck-handling, and maybe release. But, if I had to pick which one I wanted to go 1-1 with an elite defender it would be Toews every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Strength on the puck, to me, is a much more valuable high-end skill than stick work and speed.

Defenders are getting faster and faster to the point where it makes it almost as hard as it once was to pull off flashy dekes. There's not a lot of walking around defenders that takes place from shift-to-shift. By comparison, strength on the puck is valuable every shift.

And lets not forget that defensive skill-sets are a part of "skill-set"...you seem to be ignoring this throughout your arguments. The all-around, high-end, skill-set of Tarasenko is much, much higher.

As far as what I'm trying to tell you about Tarasenko vs Filatov, from what I've seen Tarasenko will be more offensively effective in the NHL. The reason, aside from his near equal puck handling and skating attributes, is that he is stronger on the puck than most current NHLers (and Filatov)...and he's more than capable of abandoning going through a defender and instead going around them -- using his high end skill.

Again, my assessment means squat...and none of this matters until they are both in the NHL...but if you honestly cant see the difference between these two then...
While I agree with you about strength on the puck being incredibly important for an NHLer, I totally disagree with using Kane as an example of someone who ISN'T strong on the puck. He may be small, but he's extremely strong on the puck for his size, fantastic in a cycle game and very hard to move off the puck with his combination of low/wide stance and great angling/shiftiness. To me, the winger with a game most similar to Crosby (in terms of style, not dominance) is Patrick Kane. It seems to be a common view on hfboards that Kane is a perimeter player and/or weak on the puck, but IMO this literally could not be further from the truth.

If you don't trust my analysis, how about this quote from Mike Babcock a couple years ago (when Kane was younger/skinnier/weaker on the puck than today), a guy who certainly knows his hockey:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...5643/index.htm
Quote:
How can a guy that [small] go into traffic like he does, be so strong on the puck, score goals like he does, have the instincts he has?
Kane is a great example of how being strong on the puck can help you succeed in the NHL, NOT an example of a guy who's weak on the puck.

(sorry for the little semi-OT rant, but I see people say this about Kane all the time, and it's clearly not true IMO)


Last edited by ponder: 07-12-2011 at 07:10 PM.
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07-12-2011, 07:14 PM
  #49
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It's stupid to argue about guys elder of whom is 21 years old (I mean Filatov and Tarasenko). Filatov right now is projected to play top 6 role in Ottawa. With his skill he's capable to produce good numbers. And all people who trash him right now will find themselves clueless. And Tarasenko hasn't played a single NHL game yet...

The only thing we can say about is a leadership when it counted the most. When teams needed their captains badly during WJCs, Filatov acted as a 10 years old momma's boy, and Tarasenko scored crucial 2 points in 3rd being injured...

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07-12-2011, 07:21 PM
  #50
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It's funny, people are saying Kane and Tarasenko are small...they are pretty close to the same height as Crosby and he's one of the strongest players with the puck.

Size has very little to do with it, strength plays a huge part and in small players cases - elusiveness. Kane is very elusive. You think you are about to see him get crushed but he slips out and makes that guy look like a pilon. I've seen Tarasenko do that at times when I have seen him play, albeit at the WJC.

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