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What Gretzky be as good in post lock-out era?

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07-09-2011, 08:06 PM
  #1
KaraLupin
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What Gretzky be as good in post lock-out era?

*I know, title fail, _WOULD_***

My friend and I were talking about this, and he suggested Wayne wouldn't do as good in today's era because there is a retaliation penalty, and thus we see less enforcers. Wayne would have no one to protect him.

I think this wouldn't be a problem, and he would actually flourish because of more penalties for clutching and grabbing, he would be able to roam free more and draw more penalties.

Would do you guys think? Would he have been more or less productive?

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07-09-2011, 08:24 PM
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Rhiessan71
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Gretzky only needed an Enforcer back in the day because it was a much more brutal league then.
Most of the crap you needed an Enforcer for then, has zero tolerance in today's NHL.

Gretzky would thrive in today's NHL. No clutching and grabbing and elaborate systems for him to take apart.
He didn't play Hockey, he played chess.
He wouldn't be able to reach the same kind of point totals today because of the improved goaltending equipment and styles not because of players playing better D or better systems.
That stuff means nothing to him.
Back in the day, the only way to shut Gretzky down was through stellar goaltending and the only way to contain him was to have someone like Carbo or Tik shadow and physically harass him 24/7. Something you can't get away with today.

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07-09-2011, 09:39 PM
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In addition to everything Rhiessan71 said, I think the current rules allowing two-line passes would be really benefit Gretzky's game. It would be giving him yet another weapon in the "chess game" where he was already several moves ahead of everyone else.

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07-09-2011, 10:52 PM
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there is no doubt that Wayne's hockey sense and pure skill would make him a valuable player today but the teams, p[layers ans systems that he would play against would diminish his actual scoring. To what degree is pure speculation but he could still challenge as one of the top scorers in the league IMO.

Also the team he went to as a rookie in today's NHL would mater as well , some places like Vancouver just don't develop their younger players very well and other teams would give Wayne the green light, to some degree , but not to the degree when he played either.

I'm pretty certain that any talk of 200 plus point seasons would be ridiculous in todays NHL but 100-140 would be possible depending on situation and setting, ie. coaching, team style and linemates.

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07-09-2011, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
there is no doubt that Wayne's hockey sense and pure skill would make him a valuable player today but the teams, p[layers ans systems that he would play against would diminish his actual scoring. To what degree is pure speculation but he could still challenge as one of the top scorers in the league IMO.

Also the team he went to as a rookie in today's NHL would mater as well , some places like Vancouver just don't develop their younger players very well and other teams would give Wayne the green light, to some degree , but not to the degree when he played either.

I'm pretty certain that any talk of 200 plus point seasons would be ridiculous in todays NHL but 100-140 would be possible depending on situation and setting, ie. coaching, team style and linemates.
No one mentioned 200 points, that's prolly unrealistic but at the same time so is only 100-140.
Seriously, you're starting the estimation at 100 points....oooook.
You realise this is the same player that was getting close to 100 points at 37 years old with a bad back in the DPE....c'mon now.
Sorry, makes no logical sense.

...and again, systems would mean little to stopping Gretzky. If you honestly think systems would hinder Gretzky then you simply didn't watch him play much or at least you certainly didn't understand his play.
I mean you mentioned '88 and how far behind we were internationally. Funny though, I don't seem to recall Gretzky having any trouble dealing with the faster skating and more system oriented Russian teams back then hmmmmm.


Naw man, goaltending would be the main and only true factor in Gretzky not being able to get 200 points today. Anything else would be minimal IMO.


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07-09-2011, 11:26 PM
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No one mentioned 200 points, that's prolly unrealistic but at the same time so is only 100-140.
Seriously, you're starting the estimation at 100 points....oooook.
You realise this is the same player that was getting close to 100 points at 37 years old with a bad back in the DPE....c'mon now.
Sorry, makes no logical sense.

...and again, systems would mean little to stopping Gretzky. If you honestly think systems would hinder Gretzky then you simply didn't watch him play much or at least you certainly didn't understand his play.
I mean you mentioned '88 and how far behind we were internationally. Funny though, I don't seem to recall Gretzky having any trouble dealing with the faster skating and more system oriented Russian teams back then hmmmmm.


Naw man, goaltending would be the main and only true factor in Gretzky not being able to get 200 points today. Anything else would be minimal IMO.
IMo, those 200 point seasons were due to the chemistry he had with his teammeates in edmonton. 170 points was his actual ability IMO, the extra points were due to having coffey's transition game and kurri on the wing.

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07-09-2011, 11:33 PM
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IMo, those 200 point seasons were due to the chemistry he had with his teammeates in edmonton. 170 points was his actual ability IMO, the extra points were due to having coffey's transition game and kurri on the wing.
Maybe but Gretzky was still in the 180-185 point range after Coffey was traded.
149 in 64 games without Coffey at all (186 point pace).

It's really hard to say though. Gretzky was never the same since '91 and unfortunately, a lot of people didn't see much of him prior to that.

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07-09-2011, 11:40 PM
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Maybe but Gretzky was still in the 180-185 point range after Coffey was traded.
149 in 64 games without Coffey at all (186 point pace).
Yeah thats true, but in edmonton he had players like tikkanen and kurri that covered his defensive lapses, so he was able to focus more on offense and not worry about backchecking, as soon as he went to LA, he scored at roughly a 155-170 point pace for 3 straight seasons, i think thats the real gretzky. Before coffey and kurri emered as superstars, gretzky put up 164 points.

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07-09-2011, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
IMo, those 200 point seasons were due to the chemistry he had with his teammeates in edmonton. 170 points was his actual ability IMO, the extra points were due to having coffey's transition game and kurri on the wing.
180 with 1 or 2 peak 200+ pt seasons, IMO. In '82 he scored 212 at the age of 21, before all those players really hit came into themselves.

150-180 today. Composite sticks, two-line passes, butterfly goalies, reduced clutching & grabbing - all would greatly benefit Gretzky.

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07-09-2011, 11:45 PM
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180 with 1 or 2 peak 200+ pt seasons, IMO. In '82 he scored 212 at the age of 21, before all those players really hit came into themselves.
I always wonder how bobby orr would have done i he got to play center and have coffey feed him the puck wth kurri on his wing, orr would probably be hittin 160. I think he was built for 80's run n gun hockey.

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07-09-2011, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I always wonder how bobby orr would have done i he got to play center and have coffey feed him the puck wth kurri on his wing, orr would probably be hittin 160. I think he was built for 80's run n gun hockey.
I wonder if Coffey or Orr would fair better or worse all-time if they were centers. Probably a bit worse, but I have to think Orr could do even better than what Fedorov did in '94, for 6+ seasons. That would be huge, and better than Lemieux, IMO.

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07-09-2011, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No one mentioned 200 points, that's prolly unrealistic but at the same time so is only 100-140.
Seriously, you're starting the estimation at 100 points....oooook.
You realise this is the same player that was getting close to 100 points at 37 years old with a bad back in the DPE....c'mon now.
Sorry, makes no logical sense.

...and again, systems would mean little to stopping Gretzky. If you honestly think systems would hinder Gretzky then you simply didn't watch him play much or at least you certainly didn't understand his play.
I mean you mentioned '88 and how far behind we were internationally. Funny though, I don't seem to recall Gretzky having any trouble dealing with the faster skating and more system oriented Russian teams back then hmmmmm.


Naw man, goaltending would be the main and only true factor in Gretzky not being able to get 200 points today. Anything else would be minimal IMO.
I brought up the 200 points because Wayne averaged that in his 6 year peak from 82-86 and the OP asked if Wayne would be as good.

Anyone who seriously thinks that he could score more than 150 points in todays NHL really has to sell me on how this could happen.

Honestly, I'm being generous to Wayne in that he scores 100-150 depending on the situation there is also a distinct possibility that he wouldn't reach those targets in each and every year in todays NHL.

His signature cutback move wouldn't work against todays much better skaters and defensively aware players.

The bottom line is that there wouldn't be any easy games for him like in the early 80's, the players and team systems he would be playing against would be far more effective, both in terms of the players being more skilled and better at providing push back, never mind the advanced state of the goalies both technically and equipment wise.

He still would be a star offensive player and perhaps even the top scorer in the league from year to year but it's just as possible that he wouldn't be either.

Just for comparison sakes the 5 years Wayne was averaging those 200 points per season 82-86, there were 66 100 points seasons (in an 80 game league, 81 with 95 plus points) while there have been exactly 17 100 point seasons in the last 5 in 82 games and 27 with 95 or more points).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals


The league plain and simple has changed quite a bit from those high flying 80's


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Old
07-10-2011, 12:13 AM
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He still would be a star offensive player and perhaps even the top scorer in the league from year to year but it's just as possible that he wouldn't be either.

In your opinion and it's a minority one.

Any further discussion, we can just re-open the "all encompassing players of today vs players from the past" thread but I doubt you'd have any more success convincing people of your opinion in that thread now as you did previously.

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07-10-2011, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I brought up the 200 points because Wayne averaged that in his 6 year peak from 82-86 and the OP asked if Wayne would be as good.

Anyone who seriously thinks that he could score more than 150 points in todays NHL really has to sell me on how this could happen.

Honestly, I'm being generous to Wayne in that he scores 100-150 depending on the situation there is also a distinct possibility that he wouldn't reach those targets in each and every year in todays NHL.

His signature cutback move wouldn't work against todays much better skaters and defensively aware players.

The bottom line is that there wouldn't be any easy games for him like in the early 80's, the players and team systems he would be playing against would be far more effective, both in terms of the players being more skilled and better at providing push back, never mind the advanced state of the goalies both technically and equipment wise.

He still would be a star offensive player and perhaps even the top scorer in the league from year to year but it's just as possible that he wouldn't be either.
You do not give near enough credit to Gretzky's intelligence, creativity and innovation - and seem to assume he would play exactly the same way he did in the 80s - of course his cut-backs and slapshots from the blue line wouldn't work - but obviously the smartest on-ice player in the history of the sport is going to realize that and adjust accordingly.

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07-10-2011, 12:15 AM
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180 with 1 or 2 peak 200+ pt seasons, IMO. In '82 he scored 212 at the age of 21, before all those players really hit came into themselves.

150-180 today. Composite sticks, two-line passes, butterfly goalies, reduced clutching & grabbing - all would greatly benefit Gretzky.
Goalies plain and simple are much better at stopping the puck than in the 80's.

Also not sure there was any more clutch and grab in the game in the 80's than today overall.

Even if there is, the better equipped defensive player, in terms of skill, skating and team systems support, is vastly superior to what Wayne saw in his heyday.

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07-10-2011, 12:21 AM
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I brought up the 200 points because Wayne averaged that in his 6 year peak from 82-86 and the OP asked if Wayne would be as good.

Anyone who seriously thinks that he could score more than 150 points in todays NHL really has to sell me on how this could happen.

Honestly, I'm being generous to Wayne in that he scores 100-150 depending on the situation there is also a distinct possibility that he wouldn't reach those targets in each and every year in todays NHL.

His signature cutback move wouldn't work against todays much better skaters and defensively aware players.

The bottom line is that there wouldn't be any easy games for him like in the early 80's, the players and team systems he would be playing against would be far more effective, both in terms of the players being more skilled and better at providing push back, never mind the advanced state of the goalies both technically and equipment wise.

He still would be a star offensive player and perhaps even the top scorer in the league from year to year but it's just as possible that he wouldn't be either.

Just for comparison sakes the 5 years Wayne was averaging those 200 points per season 82-86, there were 66 100 points seasons (in an 80 game league, 81 with 95 plus points) while there have been exactly 17 100 point seasons in the last 5 in 82 games and 27 with 95 or more points).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals


The league plain and simple has changed quite a bit from those high flying 80's
He still dominated his era. His best season (85-86) he scored 52% more points than his next competitor. You can't just put Gretzky in to this era and say he won't be good because the skaters are faster / stronger / better trained because Gretzky would also have those advantages. When you compare Gretzky to today's players there is no one that compares because no one is dominating their peers like Gretzky did.

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07-10-2011, 12:21 AM
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Goalies plain and simple are much better at stopping the puck than in the 80's.

Also not sure there was any more clutch and grab in the game in the 80's than today overall.

Even if there is, the better equipped defensive player, in terms of skill, skating and team systems support, is vastly superior to what Wayne saw in his heyday.

I love how you simply guess at this stuff and form your opinion around those guesses.
Seriously dude, all you have to do is catch a couple classic games to see the actual speed of the players is not that bad and that while there wasn't as much clutching and grabbing, there was a TON of interference.
How can you even begin to make such hypothesize when you quite obviously haven't seen an 80's game in a very long, long time.


I mean hell, I just watched an Oilers/Kings game from the '82 playoff's and I'm sorry but the play is no where near as un-organised, the players are not nearly as slow and the lack of defensive play is NO WHERE NEAR the levels you describe.
The differences by far are the amount of play stoppages and interference, not to mention the goalies tend to scare the crap out of you on a lot more shots heh.


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07-10-2011, 12:22 AM
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Goalies plain and simple are much better at stopping the puck than in the 80's.

Also not sure there was any more clutch and grab in the game in the 80's than today overall.

Even if there is, the better equipped defensive player, in terms of skill, skating and team systems support, is vastly superior to what Wayne saw in his heyday.
Even with a wooden stick, Gretzky had the best accuracy of any player I have seen - forehand and especially backhand - and his ability to lift the puck was second to none - he just did not have the velocity other great scorers have had. A composite stick changes that and benefits a player like Gretzky (with a weaker shot) more than it does a Hull. I think he would feast on butterfly goalies who instantly drop to the ice on every shot.

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07-10-2011, 12:29 AM
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You do not give near enough credit to Gretzky's intelligence, creativity and innovation - and seem to assume he would play exactly the same way he did in the 80s - of course his cut-backs and slapshots from the blue line wouldn't work - but obviously the smartest on-ice player in the history of the sport is going to realize that and adjust accordingly.
Yes I do think that he would make adjustments, my point is that teams are better equipped in so many ways to combat and defend the offensively skilled player today.

Also the hockey sense and level of commitment both internal and enforced by coaches to defensive systems and responsibilities would hamper even the great one IMO.

Every great player excels in part to the perfect storm situation of the team and context that they play in. Wayne from age 22-27 had every season with a 2.32 PPG average and in seasons aged 28-33 had seasons of
2.15
1.95
2.09
1.64
1.44
1.60

Did he get that much worse in those seasons which still should have been peak years for him or did his situation and the leagues change somewhat?

The latter is more likely IMO as this was the trend in the league overall.

I haven't done a close study on it but the quality and defensive awareness of players has increased with the increase in the number of players form Europe as well.

This in and off itself doesn't prove cause and affect but I think it plays a part in what makes it harder today for the more skilled players to dominate point wise than players in the past.

This difference, the level and commitment to defensive hockey has more to do with the lower scoring than any "perceived decrease in skill" of top flight talent.

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07-10-2011, 12:38 AM
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Yes I do think that he would make adjustments, my point is that teams are better equipped in so many ways to combat and defend the offensively skilled player today.

Also the hockey sense and level of commitment both internal and enforced by coaches to defensive systems and responsibilities would hamper even the great one IMO.

Every great player excels in part to the perfect storm situation of the team and context that they play in. Wayne from age 22-27 had every season with a 2.32 PPG average and in seasons aged 28-33 had seasons of
2.15
1.95
2.09
1.64
1.44
1.60

Did he get that much worse in those seasons which still should have been peak years for him or did his situation and the leagues change somewhat?

The latter is more likely IMO as this was the trend in the league overall.

I haven't done a close study on it but the quality and defensive awareness of players has increased with the increase in the number of players form Europe as well.

This in and off itself doesn't prove cause and affect but I think it plays a part in what makes it harder today for the more skilled players to dominate point wise than players in the past.

This difference, the level and commitment to defensive hockey has more to do with the lower scoring than any "perceived decrease in skill" of top flight talent.


Seriously dude, watch some games, do some research and stop talking out of your ass.

You might want to start that research with 1991 and what happened to Gretzky that year.
I mean Gretzky's point totals dropping off sharply must of been because the league was changing, nothing to do with the Suter crosscheck that gave him a wonky back for the rest of his career right

You wanna discredit one of the greatest players to ever play, you better show up with more than just guesses and hyperbole my friend.

Ridiculous!

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07-10-2011, 12:39 AM
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Yes I do think that he would make adjustments, my point is that teams are better equipped in so many ways to combat and defend the offensively skilled player today.

Also the hockey sense and level of commitment both internal and enforced by coaches to defensive systems and responsibilities would hamper even the great one IMO.

Every great player excels in part to the perfect storm situation of the team and context that they play in. Wayne from age 22-27 had every season with a 2.32 PPG average and in seasons aged 28-33 had seasons of
2.15
1.95
2.09
1.64
1.44
1.60

Did he get that much worse in those seasons which still should have been peak years for him or did his situation and the leagues change somewhat?

The latter is more likely IMO as this was the trend in the league overall.

I haven't done a close study on it but the quality and defensive awareness of players has increased with the increase in the number of players form Europe as well.

This in and off itself doesn't prove cause and affect but I think it plays a part in what makes it harder today for the more skilled players to dominate point wise than players in the past.

This difference, the level and commitment to defensive hockey has more to do with the lower scoring than any "perceived decrease in skill" of top flight talent.
This type of thinking implies the longevity of Howe, Sakic, Lemieux and Jagr are commonplace and not the exception to the rule. Most forwards peak in their mid-twenties and Gretzky was not an exception. With players like LaFleur, Trottier, Potvin, Esposito, etc. it is inherently understood that the grind of multiple deep playoff runs (as well as injuries) took a lot out of them, yet Gretzky seems to rarely get that luxury, despite playing in more playoff games and international games than many of them.

I just think it is clear Gretzky was a better player in his early to mid 20s than he was in his late 20s and 30s. Having watched his career does nothing but confirm this.

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07-10-2011, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I love how you simply guess at this stuff and form your opinion around those guesses.
Seriously dude, all you have to do is catch a couple classic games to see the actual speed of the players is not that bad and that while there wasn't as much clutching and grabbing, there was a TON of interference.
How can you even begin to make such hypothesize when you quite obviously haven't seen an 80's game in a very long, long time.


I mean hell, I just watched an Oilers/Kings game from the '82 playoff's and I'm sorry but the play is no where near as un-organised, the players are not nearly as slow and the lack of defensive play is NO WHERE NEAR the levels you describe.
The differences by far are the amount of play stoppages and interference, not to mention the goalies tend to scare the crap out of you on a lot more shots heh.
My friend one cannot accept a cup of tea when ones cup is full.

Seriously you are going to trot out the 82 playoffs from LA and Edmonton, the defensive towers of strength they were, and say that either of those 2 teams had anywhere near the level of skill and commitment to defensive play that occurs in virtually every game today? It's not like it's even close.

I could understand the subtle differences of the game from year to year evading someone from watching games but an almost 30 year gap and you can't or perhaps simply refuse to understand what your eyes should tell you is incredible.

And yes i do admit all I can do is guess on how Wayne would do after giving it some thought and weighting the possibilities and differences.

But i do give my opinion as a range and do discuss the possibilities and ranges unlike you who has a crystal ball and know without a doubt on how the greats would do today.

Man if i had that skill I would be a rich man as no doubt you are. Okay perhaps the last point was uncalled for but your arrogance is simply amazing on some of these points.

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07-10-2011, 12:47 AM
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My friend one cannot accept a cup of tea when ones cup is full.

Seriously you are going to trot out the 82 playoffs from LA and Edmonton, the defensive towers of strength they were, and say that either of those 2 teams had anywhere near the level of skill and commitment to defensive play that occurs in virtually every game today? It's not like it's even close.

I could understand the subtle differences of the game from year to year evading someone from watching games but an almost 30 year gap and you can't or perhaps simply refuse to understand what your eyes should tell you is incredible.

And yes i do admit all I can do is guess on how Wayne would do after giving it some thought and weighting the possibilities and differences.

But i do give my opinion as a range and do discuss the possibilities and ranges unlike you who has a crystal ball and know without a doubt on how the greats would do today.

Man if i had that skill I would be a rich man as no doubt you are. Okay perhaps the last point was uncalled for but your arrogance is simply amazing on some of these points.
My arrogance???
Are you *'n kidding me? You have the arrogance to attack and attempt to diminish Wayne freaking Gretzky with uneducated and un-researched opinions and guesses....my arrogance, don't make me laugh!
At least I'm watching these old games, at least I do my research, at least I come on here with actual fresh clues and insights to what I'm talking about!

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:50 AM
  #24
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Seriously dude, watch some games, do some research and stop talking out of your ass.

You might want to start that research with 1991 and what happened to Gretzky that year.
I mean Gretzky's point totals dropping off sharply must of been because the league was changing, nothing to do with the Suter crosscheck that gave him a wonky back for the rest of his career right

You wanna discredit one of the greatest players to ever play, you better show up with more than just guesses and hyperbole my friend.

Ridiculous!
Where am I discrediting Wayne?

Wayne was the premier offensive player in the league during his playing days and off all time period, let's get that out of the way since you seem to think that I think otherwise.

It's also clear by the record of stats that his level of dominance changed during his career and his peak was from ages 21-25.

he was still a great player from ages 26-33, and beyond by his stats changed in part due to the nature of the game changing, his teammates and perhaps in small part due to injuries.

The game has changed considerably from the early 90's as well and to pretend that this change would have no influence on him, when we can already see that there are differences in his age 21-25 era and 26-27 then 28-33 periods is simply not possible or do you simply refuse to look at the facts?

His PPG totals dropped considerably, by his standards, after the age of 25 which was in 1986, he had 2 seasons of still awesome but lower production of 2.33 and 2.32 PPG before the drop off i mentioned in my ealier post from ages 28-33.

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Old
07-10-2011, 12:52 AM
  #25
SaxMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Where am I discrediting Wayne?

Wayne was the premier offensive player in the league during his playing days and off all time period, let's get that out of the way since you seem to think that I think otherwise.

It's also clear by the record of stats that his level of dominance changed during his career and his peak was from ages 21-25.

he was still a great player from ages 26-33, and beyond by his stats changed in part due to the nature of the game changing, his teammates and perhaps in small part due to injuries.

The game has changed considerably from the early 90's as well and to pretend that this change would have no influence on him, when we can already see that there are differences in his age 21-25 era and 26-27 then 28-33 periods is simply not possible or do you simply refuse to look at the facts?

His PPG totals dropped considerably, by his standards, after the age of 25 which was in 1986, he had 2 seasons of still awesome but lower production of 2.33 and 2.32 PPG before the drop off i mentioned in my ealier post from ages 28-33.
Don't all NHL players production rates drop off after 25? What's your point? He was 31 when it dropped to under 2.

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