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Old
07-11-2011, 09:42 PM
  #226
CS
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I think you drastically underestimate just how good of a player that Jordan Staal is. He is the best defensive Forward in the NHL in his early 20's. Who also has untapped offensive potential.
Do you seriously think he's the best defensive forward in the NHL?

Datsyuk
Richards
Kesler
Toews
E. Staal

There are quite a few more I'd take over him. Carter is probably on that list. Physicality does not always mean better defense. If you think Carter was a defensive slouch, then you're out of your mind.

J. Staal is an ELITE THIRD LINE CENTER right now who has never shown the potential to be anything more than an ELITE THIRD LINE CENTER/SOLID SECOND LINE CENTER if necessary.

Saying that he is the best defensive forward in the NHL just makes me want to smack you around until you wake up.

Stop listening to the damn Penguins' hype machine. He's good, he's very good, he's not that damn good.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Your a talent evaluator for Hockey Futures.
Yes, mostly because I don't say things like a 22-year-old third liner is the best defensive center in the NHL.

Come on man, you don't even leave yourself an out to MAYBE explain why you think that.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Do you seriously believe that a player has reached his peak at 22? In any category?
Not necessarily his peak, but I don't necessarily believe his peak has anything to do with a significant offensive surge upward. He will get stronger, more consistent, and yes, an offensive boost will probably come along with it.

Do I foresee him as a #1 NHL center night in and night out? Maybe, but up until now, he certainly is not that player. He certainly hasn't shown anything to suggest he will be that guy either.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
If Couturier becomes the 2 way player that J. Staal is while scoring 20 goals, that's not at all a disappointment. That's the type of player that you win Cups with.
If Couturier becomes J. Staal you better find me a freaking Crosby and Malkin.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
It's ridiculous to argue that J Staal has been a disapointment in any way. Did you at all consider the injuries and missed time he has this past Season?
It's ridiculous to believe J. Staal is a #1 center let alone the best defensive center in the NHL.

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:07 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by hXc Chris View Post
Injuries and missed time disappoints me. See Eric Lindros, Peter Forsberg, Simon Gagne, Keith Primeau!
Disappoints you? Yes, because injuries are intentional.

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07-11-2011, 10:34 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Let me guess, you are not very familiar with science based research right? You are giving no reasons for your opinion. And have failed to do so. Please just give a reason.
Hahahaha.

You're too lazy to edumucate yourself and just flailing.

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07-11-2011, 10:37 PM
  #229
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Well, I still stand behind the Eric Staal comparison. And no, Jordan Staal isn't even close to the player that Claude Giroux is. Giroux has the ability to carry a team on his back and I don't see that from Staal. And to say he's the best defensive forward in the NHL is laughable, especially when Datsyuk plays in this league.

As for Couturier, once again, all what people need to do is go to You Tube and watch his clips and then watch clips of Eric Staal and it's easy to see how a comparison between the two can be made.

I'll say it right now - the Flyers found their Eric Staal in Couturier. And yeah, anything less should be considered a disappointment.

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:39 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Disappoints you? Yes, because injuries are intentional.
It's because a players' muscles and bones are lazy.

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Old
07-11-2011, 10:46 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Disappoints you? Yes, because injuries are intentional.
What's the problem with being disappointed that injuries set a player back?

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07-11-2011, 10:46 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Disappoints you? Yes, because injuries are intentional.
What does something being intentional have anything to do with being disappointed. I'm sure Pronger didnt intentionally injure himself last season, but I was disappointed to see him miss almost the entire playoffs.

I feel like any player that is highly ranked/drafted turns out to be injury prone is a disappointment. Whether its intentional or not is irrelevant.

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:22 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hahahaha.

You're too lazy to edumucate yourself and just flailing.


Listen Jester. Show me why you think Age is the determining factor in the way a player career arcs, and i will shut the hell up and admit that you know more than me about this. That is all I ask.

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:35 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Listen Jester. Show me why you think Age is the determining factor in the way a player career arcs, and i will shut the hell up and admit that you know more than me about this. That is all I ask.
Dude, follow the link. It sorts data by age. Stop being so damn lazy, as well as acting like it hasn't been explained to you with a footnote to the damn data.

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07-11-2011, 11:38 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Well, I still stand behind the Eric Staal comparison. And no, Jordan Staal isn't even close to the player that Claude Giroux is. Giroux has the ability to carry a team on his back and I don't see that from Staal. And to say he's the best defensive forward in the NHL is laughable, especially when Datsyuk plays in this league.

As for Couturier, once again, all what people need to do is go to You Tube and watch his clips and then watch clips of Eric Staal and it's easy to see how a comparison between the two can be made.

I'll say it right now - the Flyers found their Eric Staal in Couturier. And yeah, anything less should be considered a disappointment.
Anything less than a guy that has cracked 100 pts, has two 40 goal seasons, four 30 goal seasons, etc. By 26 should be considered disappointing?

That's dumber than what Chris said.

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07-11-2011, 11:39 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Well, if you do what Jester said earlier (which you conveniently failed to acknowledge, as you have frequently done throughout this debate in favor of your bellicosity), here's one fairly strong correlation it will give you:

Go through the scoring by age. You'll notice a steady rise in the number of players with 100+ point seasons from about 22-27. after 27, there is a distinct dropoff from 27-28, and a continual trend downward thereafter, with the number being cut almost in half by the age of 30.

That's a pretty strong correlation between age and production.

Goals follows a similar trend. At 27, the suggested peak age of player performance, the number of 50+ goal scorers is at 16. At age 30? 5. And then a steady decline.
Yes! thank you. Now you have given me something to work with.

So in our discussion,

Jester: Thinks Age is the factor in determining a career arc.
Jtown: Things Games are the determining factor in a career arc.

Here you have made a great observation, you have gone to quant hockey and you have noticed that at certain ages players perform better and worst. The observation suggests that as a player gets into his late 20's his production tends to trend down where as at age 27 there is a peak. Definitely an observation that can't be questioned.

However, as someone as yourself who is familiar with Scientific research knows we have just observed a problem and formed a crude hypothesis. Now comes the next step. What are the factors that determine this arc. Since age is just basically a number, we need to look further in the physiological changes in an athlete over time that create these changes.


We simply can't say that when a player turns 27, there career production will trend downward. What we can say is when a player turns 27 the body produces less Arachidonic Acid leading to a prolonged state of the inflammatory process which prevents muscle anabolism. The body simply cant handle long states of this and recovery is impossible. - that was just an example of Why, and that is basically what im asking for As a man of science don't report back to me your observations you have to explain why the observation is happening.

Remember the first rule of science research. "Correlation does not mean Causation".

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:44 PM
  #237
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So... Age (27) is important in a physiological development independent from games played? And, btw, he reiterated the exact thing I said. Comical that you are acting as if this was some new discovery.

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07-11-2011, 11:46 PM
  #238
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It's probably a combination of both.

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:47 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So... Age (27) is important in a physiological development independent from games played? And, btw, he reiterated the exact thing I said. Comical that you are acting as if this was some new discovery.
That is what we are trying to figure out right? he put in terms that i could work with, something i asked you to do. Now go do your research ill be waiting patiently

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:47 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's probably a combination of both.
12 hours ago I thought this was the obvious answer...and yet they're still going at it. This is literally one of the most pathetic discussions I've read.

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07-11-2011, 11:50 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's probably a combination of both.
I don't really buy that. So many of the guys that enter at 18/19 begin to peak at the same age as guys that enter at 20/21. The only real difference is that the first group is either unbelievably talented, or more physically mature at the younger age. Their hockey career arc remains right in line.

If games were more of a factor there wouldn't be such a clear arc tied to age. Not to mention, as noted a while ago, there is strong correlation between age and the number of games you have played.

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07-11-2011, 11:50 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
12 hours ago I thought this was the obvious answer...and yet they're still going at it. This is literally one of the most pathetic discussions I've read.
It's the offseason. There's nothing else to talk about, might as well just have debates.

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Old
07-11-2011, 11:51 PM
  #243
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That is what we are trying to figure out right? he put in terms that i could work with, something i asked you to do. Now go do your research ill be waiting patiently
He restated the exact thing I said. Did they not teach you reading skills in PE? All you have provided is a 30 year old article abstract that doesn't even focus on athletes (who have notably different muscle development, and you know that... Right?).

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07-11-2011, 11:55 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He restated the exact thing I said. Did they not teach you reading skills in PE? All you have provided is a 30 year old article abstract that doesn't even focus on athletes (who have notably different muscle development, and you know that... Right?).


No i had no clue, tell us about the muscle development of athletes?

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07-11-2011, 11:59 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
12 hours ago I thought this was the obvious answer...and yet they're still going at it. This is literally one of the most pathetic discussions I've read.
yeah, it's only July. wait until August and the 5 page debates on clutch goals scoring.

My biggest issue with Couturier is his nick name...Coots? I like Cooter better.
If he does make the team it could really change the line dynamics.

Hartnell - Briere - Giroux
JvR - Coots - Jagr
Voracek - Schenn - Simmonds
Shelley/ Sestito - Talbot - Nodl

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Old
07-12-2011, 12:02 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's probably a combination of both.
This is the smartest thing anyone has said in this thread for about 3 pages...

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07-12-2011, 12:11 AM
  #247
Jester
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No i had no clue, tell us about the muscle development of athletes?
Why don't you, since you think a generic sampling of people age 11-70 thirty years ago is useful for talking about hockey players. If I looked at the musculature of an endurance athlete would it be the same as a sprinter? No. Would either of them have directly comparable musculature to Joe shmoe 30 that went to the gym a few nights a week? No.

Perhaps most importantly. If I took a peak athlete from 30 years ago and stood him next to a modern day athlete, would they have much similarity in their training, nutrition, etc. experience?

For a "scientific mind" you are blowing past a boatload of variables that are non-trivial... And I'd wager you know it.

But, hell, you are in the field. If it hasn't been done a study that isolates on athletes in specific sports at various stages of their career would be good stuff. Be sure to note how many games they have played.

Here are the facts, though. If a dude hasn't made it by 25 there is a really good chance he's never going to make it. At 22/23 the vast majority of NHL players will begin to tap in to their offensive potential, and by 27 they will begin to decline. I have no doubt there are physiological factors at play, in fact I've noted that quickness and agility are the most obvious losses that you can observe in athletes. Age, however, has strong correlation to arc, and it isn't just a number. And the data backs that up.

You want to come up with the why? Go for it... But games is not a satisfactory answer to that for a variety of reasons. Most importantly, there isn't much to support that claim in the NHL... And you haven't provided anything to prove your claim. I have.

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07-12-2011, 12:14 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post

Jester: Thinks Age is the factor in determining a career arc.
Jtown: Things Games are the determining factor in a career arc.
So, hypothetically, a 50-year-old Ovechkin could perform at the same level as a 25-year-old Ovechkin if he had absolutely no "wear and tear" on his body?

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Old
07-12-2011, 12:18 AM
  #249
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So, hypothetically, a 50-year-old Ovechkin could perform at the same level as a 25-year-old Ovechkin if he had absolutely no "wear and tear" on his body?
Yep. If only we could stick guys in glass jars... maybe if we just put Pronger on the sideline this year (since we're probably not going to win anyway) and wait until the forwards season up a bit.

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07-12-2011, 12:34 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why don't you, since you think a generic sampling of people age 11-70 thirty years ago is useful for talking about hockey players. If I looked at the musculature of an endurance athlete would it be the same as a sprinter? No. Would either of them have directly comparable musculature to Joe shmoe 30 that went to the gym a few nights a week? No.

Perhaps most importantly. If I took a peak athlete from 30 years ago and stood him next to a modern day athlete, would they have much similarity in their training, nutrition, etc. experience?

For a "scientific mind" you are blowing past a boatload of variables that are non-trivial... And I'd wager you know it.

But, hell, you are in the field. If it hasn't been done a study that isolates on athletes in specific sports at various stages of their career would be good stuff. Be sure to note how many games they have played.

Here are the facts, though. If a dude hasn't made it by 25 there is a really good chance he's never going to make it. At 22/23 the vast majority of NHL players will begin to tap in to their offensive potential, and by 27 they will begin to decline. I have no doubt there are physiological factors at play, in fact I've noted that quickness and agility are the most obvious losses that you can observe in athletes. Age, however, has strong correlation to arc, and it isn't just a number. And the data backs that up.

You want to come up with the why? Go for it... But games is not a satisfactory answer to that for a variety of reasons. Most importantly, there isn't much to support that claim in the NHL... And you haven't provided anything to prove your claim. I have.

jester i feel sorry for you, you keep sidetracking and you do a great job at it. WE know you can make correlations. Thats great but it doesn't prove anything. I've given you physiological proof that the body reaches its peak at age 30, ANd that the body can still perform at incredible levels after that barring no injury. However after 30, a persons reaction time trends down ward particularly due to the degeneration of the sensory receptors particulary due to myelin sheath wear and tear. ..l. http://www.neurobiologyofaging.org/a...130-3/abstract

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