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Old
07-12-2011, 10:59 AM
  #351
mirimon
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I swear to god, a Penguin who never hit 50 points and plays on the third line gets far more love around here than Jeff Carter ever did.

Why? Because Carter sucked in the playoffs?

J. Staal Playoffs: 0.40 PPG
J. Carter Playoffs: 0.45 PPG

And Staal didn't even have broken feet or a broken hand or messed up shoulders.

Staal is such a lazy floater who is just about as unclutch as a player can be unclutch.

Oh, but he doesn't score in blowouts like Carter, partially because he doesn't really even score all that much.
Seems to be pretty much the same people who consistently defended Carter who defends Staal now though.

I think you're way too hung up on that 3rd line moniker. The Pens doesn't have a 3rd line center in terms of quality, just as we haven't had one for the past 4 years. Whichever three guys of Richards-Carter-Giroux-Brière filled out the center spots, I don't think anyone would have classified one of them as the "3rd line center".

I would definitely take Carter over Staal though, just so we are clear over that.

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07-12-2011, 11:00 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Offensive ability and physical tools against 16, 17, and 18 y.o kids do not necessarily translate to the NHL. For example, it doesn't tell you how Couturier's frame will fill out... Which will have a significant impact on his game at this level.
I know, that's part of why people bust. Teams draft players who's game doesn't translate. That doesn't change the fact that I would be disappointed if his game didn't translate. I expect him to be a 60-70 point forward. That's not outlandish. I also expect his 6'4" frame to fill out fine, also not outside the realm of reasonable expectations.

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07-12-2011, 11:01 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Seems to be pretty much the same people who consistently defended Carter who defends Staal now though.

I think you're way too hung up on that 3rd line moniker. The Pens doesn't have a 3rd line center in terms of quality, just as we haven't had one for the past 4 years. Whichever three guys of Richards-Carter-Giroux-Brière filled out the center spots, I don't think anyone would have classified one of them as the "3rd line center".

I would definitely take Carter over Staal though, just so we are clear over that.
Well part of the "3rd-line" moniker comes from the fact that Staal really is the ideal 3rd-line center.

And I would take Carter over him as well fairly easily.

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Old
07-12-2011, 11:01 AM
  #354
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As I noted before, the seems to be a much stronger correlation to games played in the NHL with production than actual age.
This thread can last a thousand years I'm afraid...

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07-12-2011, 11:03 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As I noted before, the seems to be a much stronger correlation to games played in the NHL with production than actual age.

Also as said before, Staal never really had the pedigree for being a strong offensive forward compared to other players when drafted. So while I agree it's stupid to write him off because of guys like Getzlaf and Bergeron's offensive emergence in the NHL, I don't necessarily feel obligated to just believe that Staal is going to be a 70-80 point guy.
Staal is also trending upward as he enters what generally appear to be prime years (there is a strong correlation, as noted, between high production and the ages of 23-27). Without tapping into the whole stupid games played vs. pure age debate again, given that Staal was at a 60 point clip last season, it's not unreasonable to think he could hit 60-70 points in the next few years.

Not saying it will happen, but to say it won't is pretty foolish, too.

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07-12-2011, 11:05 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Not saying it will happen, but to say it won't is pretty foolish, too.
So saying it will happen is foolish?

And saying it won't happen is foolish too?

What do you say?

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07-12-2011, 11:07 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Staal is also trending upward as he enters what generally appear to be prime years (there is a strong correlation, as noted, between high production and the ages of 23-27). Without tapping into the whole stupid games played vs. pure age debate again, given that Staal was at a 60 point clip last season, it's not unreasonable to think he could hit 60-70 points in the next few years.

Not saying it will happen, but to say it won't is pretty foolish, too.
Its unreasonable for me to expect that of Couturier. And if Jordan Staal became that player I'd be pissed because he's a Pen, but I'd be perfectly happy if Couturier turned into that Staal.

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07-12-2011, 11:09 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
So saying it will happen is foolish?

And saying it won't happen is foolish too?

What do you say?
I say, let's see what he manages to do coming off of his best season in terms of PPG (on pace for 60) before we either write him off or put an elite label on him.

I think it's far from likely that he's hit his ceiling...that doesn't necessarily make it reasonable to expect 70+, either. People on either side of this debate are arguing like they're certain and he is one thing or another...doesn't really work that way.

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07-12-2011, 11:12 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The kind of idiocy that dictates that Jordan Staal is somehow a proven 1st line center before even dropping a 50-point season?

You draft players in the top 10 to become 1st line/pairing difference makers...

You don't draft them to become 3rd line/pairing defensive players who could someday maybe become 1st line/pairing guys if the stars align...
I don't care what you draft them "for". Jordan Stall is easily a 2nd line center on almost any other team. 1st line? Maybe not yet, but he is only 22... Maybe he has been willing to sacrifice his own production for the team just like Richards did by playing a 3rd line shutdown role?

You don't draft a player to be Gretzky or bust.

I and most of the others who are disagreeing with you are more likely to be supporter of Carter, so you're sounding more and more ridiculous with you assumptions.

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07-12-2011, 11:18 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This is where people get mixed up.

J. Staal is a great player to have and an outstanding force for any third line, I'm just putting my expectations a little higher than that considering everything we've seen from Couturier.
Your placing that lable of 3rd line Center on Staal. Again, you insist on not taking into context the role and situation he plays on that team. Put on some other teams and what line does he Center?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The kind of idiocy that dictates that Jordan Staal is somehow a proven 1st line center before even dropping a 50-point season?

You draft players in the top 10 to become 1st line/pairing difference makers...

You don't draft them to become 3rd line/pairing defensive players who could someday maybe become 1st line/pairing guys if the stars align...
Again, you come up short analyzing the impact Jordan Staal has on the ice. He is without a doubt a difference maker on the ice. And again, your fixated on that 3rd line lable.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well part of the "3rd-line" moniker comes from the fact that Staal really is the ideal 3rd-line center.

And I would take Carter over him as well fairly easily.
Staal is far more than just a 3rd line Center. Again that lable that you've placed on him. Doesn't it depend on what your looking for, for your team in who you would take between those two players? If you have Malkin and Crosby and your looking for a player who does what they ask Staal to do, you'd take Staal over Carter. When building and putting together a team, it's about the mix of players. You don't just take the players with the best offensive stats and put them out there. It's amazing to me that you don't see the game and all the facotrs involved in it.

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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I say, let's see what he manages to do coming off of his best season in terms of PPG (on pace for 60) before we either write him off or put an elite label on him.

I think it's far from likely that he's hit his ceiling...that doesn't necessarily make it reasonable to expect 70+, either. People on either side of this debate are arguing like they're certain and he is one thing or another...doesn't really work that way.
I'm arguing that Staal is what he is. Which is one of the top 2 way players in the League who has a big impact for his team.

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Old
07-12-2011, 11:25 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You draft players in the top 10 to become 1st line/pairing difference makers...

You don't draft them to become 3rd line/pairing defensive players who could someday maybe become 1st line/pairing guys if the stars align...
Okay -- which of these players are 1st line or 1st pairing "difference makers":

2010 Alex Burmistrov C
2009 Scott Glennie C
2008 Mikkel Boedker LW
2007 Zach Hamill C
2006 Peter Mueller C
2005 Devin Setoguchi RW
2004 Alexandre Picard LW
2003 Braydon Coburn D
2002 Pierre-Marc Bouchard C
2001 Pascal Leclaire G
2000 Nikita Alexeev LW/RW
1999 Taylor Pyatt LW
1998 Mark Bell C
1997 Sergei Samsonov LW
1996 Johnathan Aitken D
1995 Terry Ryan LW
1994 Jason Wiemer C
1993 Niklas Sundstrom RW
1992 Brandon Convery C
1991 Richard Matvichuk D
1990 Derian Hatcher D
1989 Jason Herter D
1988 Jeremy Roenick C
1987 Jimmy Waite G
1986 Pat Elynuik RW
1985 Brent Fedyk RW
1984 Shayne Corson LW
1983 Andrew McBain RW
1981 Grant Fuhr G
1980 Fred Arthur D

Let's look at the 5th overall spot (personally, I think that's a bit too high for Couturier, but let's give it a go). Definitely a few more stars, but still not guaranteed "difference makers".

Year Player Pos.
2010 Nino Niederreiter LW
2009 Brayden Schenn C
2008 Luke Schenn D
2007 Karl Alzner D
2006 Phil Kessel C
2005 Carey Price G
2004 Blake Wheeler RW
2003 Thomas Vanek LW/RW
2002 Ryan Whitney D
2001 Stanislav Chistov LW
2000 Raffi Torres LW
1999 Tim Connolly C
1998 Vitali Vishnevsky D
1997 Eric Brewer D
1996 Richard Jackman D
1995 Daymond Langkow C
1994 Jeff O'Neill C
1993 Rob Niedermayer C
1992 Darius Kasparaitis D
1991 Aaron Ward D
1990 Jaromir Jagr RW
1989 Bill Guerin RW
1988 Daniel Dore RW
1987 Chris Joseph D
1986 Shawn Anderson D
1985 Dana Murzyn D
1984 Petr Svoboda D
1983 Tom Barrasso G
1981 Joe Cirella D
1980 Darren Veitch D

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07-12-2011, 11:27 AM
  #362
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Do we really need this much debate to realize that people have drastically differing expectations? Some of them are abnormally high, and chances are you will be disappointed. Count me in with those that will be thrilled with Jordan Staal.

It's useless to try to convince people that they need to lower or raise their expectations.
Yeah as I have stated in the past people really need to temper their expectations of this kid. There is little doubt he is talented and could one day be a core player for us down the line. I am not going to get into the well he will end up like this player arguement. People are setting themeslves up for dissapointment and when the kid doesnt reach the levels thought of the year he was drafted you have people looking to run him out of town like we had this year with Richards and Carter. 5 or 6 years from now there will be that group of people. Book it.
Since his name has been brought up before on this thread on how Couturier compares to Jordan Staal I have little doubt there wouldnt be as much resistance to the comparison if Staal wasnt a Penguin.

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07-12-2011, 11:29 AM
  #363
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Yeah as I have stated in the past people really need to temper their expectations of this kid. There is little doubt he is talented and could one day be a core player for us down the line. I am not going to get into the well he will end up like this player arguement. People are setting themeslves up for dissapointment and when the kid doesnt reach the levels thought of the year he was drafted you have people looking to run him out of town like we had this year with Richards and Carter. 5 or 6 years from now there will be that group of people. Book it.
Since his name has been brought up before on this thread on how Couturier compares to Jordan Staal I have little doubt there wouldnt be as much resistance to the comparison if Staal wasnt a Penguin.
All excellent points.

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07-12-2011, 11:40 AM
  #364
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Hey man, we are supposed to go back to the cave and cast light.
I'm trying to figure out if this is some reference I'm missing?

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07-12-2011, 12:05 PM
  #365
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Yeah as I have stated in the past people really need to temper their expectations of this kid. There is little doubt he is talented and could one day be a core player for us down the line. I am not going to get into the well he will end up like this player arguement. People are setting themeslves up for dissapointment and when the kid doesnt reach the levels thought of the year he was drafted you have people looking to run him out of town like we had this year with Richards and Carter. 5 or 6 years from now there will be that group of people. Book it.
Since his name has been brought up before on this thread on how Couturier compares to Jordan Staal I have little doubt there wouldnt be as much resistance to the comparison if Staal wasnt a Penguin.
Agreed on all counts. I'm also amazed at how people keep knocking Staal as a third line centre. When Bundy was on TSN radio after the trades from hell, he made a comment about Richards being a third line centre. A friend of mine heard it and emailed me, shocked at the fact that Bundy said that. I reminded him that Briere, Carter, Giroux and Richards are all centres and at any given time, any one of them was either a first, second or third line centre. There's a difference when you have that kind of depth or Pittsburgh's depth down the middle, compared to teams who don't have it.

I, too, would take Carter over Staal given the choice but it would be very close. And if Couturier ends up as a Staal clone, I'll be very happy.

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07-12-2011, 12:09 PM
  #366
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I'm trying to figure out if this is some reference I'm missing?
Think Greek.

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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Agreed on all counts. I'm also amazed at how people keep knocking Staal as a third line centre. When Bundy was on TSN radio after the trades from hell, he made a comment about Richards being a third line centre. A friend of mine heard it and emailed me, shocked at the fact that Bundy said that. I reminded him that Briere, Carter, Giroux and Richards are all centres and at any given time, any one of them was either a first, second or third line centre. There's a difference when you have that kind of depth or Pittsburgh's depth down the middle, compared to teams who don't have it.

I, too, would take Carter over Staal given the choice but it would be very close. And if Couturier ends up as a Staal clone, I'll be very happy.
If Carter had not developed from the defensive train wreck he was early on, then I'd pick Staal hands down. Given that Carter turned himself into an above-average defensive forward, and pairs that with elite goal scoring ability... you have to pick him. I'm a huge fan of Staal, but even at his best I don't expect him to be putting up PPG at any point in his career... he is, however, such a force defensively when he's on his game that it mitigates a lot of that.

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07-12-2011, 12:13 PM
  #367
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Think Greek.
Gyros? Uncle Jesse?

I've got nothing.

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07-12-2011, 12:19 PM
  #368
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Gyros? Uncle Jesse?

I've got nothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

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07-12-2011, 12:23 PM
  #369
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This thread has it all; Plato, Rhesus Monkeys, Myelin sheath degeneration, old man strength, Penguins' players.

What a treasure.

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07-12-2011, 12:26 PM
  #370
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Flyers fans arguing over, and defending, Jordan Staal? Am I on the Pens forum?

JS can be frustrating offensively, but considering his linemates and lack of PP time, I would say 49 points is relatively impressive. Also, once Crosby and Malkin went down and Staal was our default #1, he was on pace to score 60 points. Obviously Staal is not your ideal #2 overall selection, but he definitely a core player and plays a major role to the team.

I don't know much about Couturier but if he reaches 65+ points (like I assume Staal will someday) he'll be a solid top 6 forward. And there is nothing wrong with that.

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07-12-2011, 12:35 PM
  #371
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Flyers fans arguing over, and defending, Jordan Staal? Am I on the Pens forum?

JS can be frustrating offensively, but considering his linemates and lack of PP time, I would say 49 points is relatively impressive. Also, once Crosby and Malkin went down and Staal was our default #1, he was on pace to score 60 points. Obviously Staal is not your ideal #2 overall selection, but he definitely a core player and plays a major role to the team.

I don't know much about Couturier but if he reaches 65+ points (like I assume Staal will someday) he'll be a solid top 6 forward. And there is nothing wrong with that.
If they were to go back and do the draft again, the Pens would certainly pick Toews over Staal... which is *ing terrifying to contemplate. Similarly, you'd probably pick Backstrom over him as well.

After that you get into debates... Giroux looks a bit better than Staal right now, but Staal is a baby for his draft year (which really does matter even if people want to ignore it... Gladwell wrote a whole thing looking at Jeff Carter and how his date of birth impacted his hockey career). It's also difficult to weigh offensive production against defensive prowess with much ease. If Giroux settles as a 70-80 point player in his prime, and Staal settles as a 55-65 point guy... I think I'd prefer Staal for what he brings elsewhere.

Regardless, Staal was easily a top 10 pick for his draft year, and would only drop a couple of spots if you were to do it again. That's including names like Giroux potentially, who was considered a reach by the Flyers at the end of the first round.

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07-12-2011, 12:36 PM
  #372
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This thread has it all; Plato, Rhesus Monkeys, Myelin sheath degeneration, old man strength, Penguins' players.

What a treasure.
Don't forget Harry Potter, gyros, and Uncle Jesse...

Yes, I'm responsible for most of the nonsense.

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07-12-2011, 12:38 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Gyros? Uncle Jesse?

I've got nothing.
No Plato, but apparently waaaayyyyy too much Full House in your upbringing, eh?

(I had to google that Uncle Jesse thing, so I'm safe.)

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07-12-2011, 12:40 PM
  #374
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Don't forget Harry Potter, gyros, and Uncle Jesse...

Yes, I'm responsible for most of the nonsense.
I think we need a Star Wars reference of some sort.

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07-12-2011, 12:41 PM
  #375
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No Plato, but apparently waaaayyyyy too much Full House in your upbringing, eh?

(I had to google that Uncle Jesse thing, so I'm safe.)
haha I'm 25. Everyone my age watched Full House.

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