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Waiver eligibilty of Gustafsson/others?

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07-13-2011, 11:00 AM
  #1
ugiswrong
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Waiver eligibilty of Gustafsson/others?

I just read a recent blog by Meltzer where he focuses on the language in the CBA regarding interpretation of waiver eligibility...and he concluded that Erik Gustafsson will be subject to waivers this year due to him having signed at age 21 and already having played 80 professional games (77 AHL 3 NHL)

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...tions/45/37049

Could some of the CBA geeks here review this, for lack of better word, claim? It would suck to have to decide 12 days before the season would start on who that 7th d man is going to be. If Gus and Bart are both indeed eligible, then unless we carried 8 d-men, one of them would probably fall to the waiver wire (Bart I'm guessing)

So if that is truly the case, the Flyers should have had some foresight to've avoided this blunder, and held Gustafsson to 79 games.

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07-13-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugiswrong View Post
I just read a recent blog by Meltzer where he focuses on the language in the CBA regarding interpretation of waiver eligibility...and he concluded that Erik Gustafsson will be subject to waivers this year due to him having signed at age 21 and already having played 80 professional games (77 AHL 3 NHL)

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...tions/45/37049

Could some of the CBA geeks here review this, for lack of better word, claim? It would suck to have to decide 12 days before the season would start on who that 7th d man is going to be. If Gus and Bart are both indeed eligible, then unless we carried 8 d-men, one of them would probably fall to the waiver wire (Bart I'm guessing)

So if that is truly the case, the Flyers should have had some foresight to've avoided this blunder, and held Gustafsson to 79 games.
That would require that the Flyers management actually understand the CBA's ins and outs and possess any actual foresight.


In all seriousness, though, I'm not sure holding him out of games would really have been good for his development. If he has to be up, at this point I'd like to see him be the #6 to start the year.

As for Bart, I've always held that he should be given a shot to play since he could be a legit 5-6 option...but if that's never gonna happen and we have to hold both of them, then fine, waive him and let him go elsewhere.

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07-13-2011, 11:24 AM
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I'd like us to keep both Gustafsson and Bartulis up and waive Lilja... if it weren't for that 35+ contract...

So, I guess it means it will be either Gus/Bart and Holmstrom/Sestito on the opening roster? Unless some other prospect has too good a training camp to keep off the roster.

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07-13-2011, 11:32 AM
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07-13-2011, 11:35 AM
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In all seriousness with the cap room we have, I could see Matt Walker splitting time with Andreas Lilja as the 6/7th dman, and shelley remaining on the 4th line. Then I can see us losing Sestito, Gustafsson, and Bartulis to waivers when Homer sends them down trying to get them to the AHL not fully understanding the CBA.

It is what it is..

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07-13-2011, 11:38 AM
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I'm pretty sure he is exempt from waivers for atleast 1 more season/77 more games. Checking now...

Edit: Ok. Looks like I was slightly wrong. But assuming I entered in his info correctly (played 3 NHL games, and signed his NHL contract in 2010) he is exempt from waivers. Done on Capgeek's waiver calculator.

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07-13-2011, 11:41 AM
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My preference, not empirically based, would be to keep Gustaffson with the big club if a choice had to be made between him and Bartulis.

Perhaps Holmgren could adopt some sly waiver-masking plan like the following:

Flyer players made available to waivers:
Michael Leighton
Jody Shelley
Oskars Bartulis
Michael Leighton!!

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07-13-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugiswrong View Post
I just read a recent blog by Meltzer where he focuses on the language in the CBA regarding interpretation of waiver eligibility...and he concluded that Erik Gustafsson will be subject to waivers this year due to him having signed at age 21 and already having played 80 professional games (77 AHL 3 NHL)

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...tions/45/37049

Could some of the CBA geeks here review this, for lack of better word, claim? It would suck to have to decide 12 days before the season would start on who that 7th d man is going to be. If Gus and Bart are both indeed eligible, then unless we carried 8 d-men, one of them would probably fall to the waiver wire (Bart I'm guessing)

So if that is truly the case, the Flyers should have had some foresight to've avoided this blunder, and held Gustafsson to 79 games.
I'm certainly nowhere close to a CBA Geek, nor do I claim to have a clear grasp on any large chunk of it but after initial reading Melzer's blog I'm thinking that the Flyers may not be in such a bind.

I do understand the intent of the CBA is to prevent stockpiling and blocking talent in Organizations with money to spend... but I also understand that come the end of Camp -- and maybe even longer if Pronger doesn't start he season or another D-man is injured -- teams will be basically set in their rosters and pretty much ready to break camp with their own players... The other teams are bound by the same CBA and must apply the same rules to Waiver Claims as the teams hat put players on waivers... If they find Guss or Bart to be better and can fit on their 23 man roster they must be able to demote or waive one of their players.

This all reduces the chance of a player such as those two from being claimed... True a team may deem one of them better but my guess is that most teams are dealing with their own issues and their own depth and heir own players that have to crack their NHL roster while battling Waiver eligibility.

I believe that Homer has to decide who he would most like to have and weight the Cap hit and then roll the dice in waiving any player... We know that Walker will most likely be and will most likely clear... with Guss and Bart I think Homer has to wait as long as he can and then do what he must do.

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07-13-2011, 11:42 AM
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The AHL games don't count in the total. It's "NHL games" and "professional seasons" in the criteria. He's waiver exempt.

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07-13-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
My preference, not empirically based, would be to keep Gustaffson with the big club if a choice had to be made between him and Bartulis.

Perhaps Holmgren could adopt some sly waiver-masking plan like the following:

Flyer players made available to waivers:
Michael Leighton
Jody Shelley
Oskars Bartulis
Michael Leighton!!
Can they even waive Leighton twice at one time?... I sure hope you're correct.

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07-13-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The AHL games don't count in the total. It's "NHL games" and "professional seasons" in the criteria. He's waiver exempt.
According to Meltzer, age at signing determines whether or not the AHL games count towards it... per his blog IIRC.

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07-13-2011, 11:49 AM
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Rick Deckard
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Professional games means NHL games with regard to waivers, Gustafsson has only three.

Capgeek waiver calculator: http://capgeek.com/waiver_calculator...010&Calculate=

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07-13-2011, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
According to Meltzer, age at signing determines whether or not the AHL games count towards it... per his blog IIRC.
I think Meltzer is citing this in the CBA:

" The first season in which a Player who is age 20 or older
plays in one or more "Professional Games" shall constitute the
first year for calculating the number of years he is exempt from
waivers."

But that only has to do with calculating the years a player has left, not the amount of games.

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07-13-2011, 12:01 PM
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Sawdalite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
I think Meltzer is citing this in the CBA:

" The first season in which a Player who is age 20 or older
plays in one or more "Professional Games" shall constitute the
first year for calculating the number of years he is exempt from
waivers."

But that only has to do with calculating the years a player has left, not the amount of games.
FWIW... Meltzer's exact words:

For players who sign their ELC at age 21, waiver eligibility kicks in either when the player has played 80 professional games or three years have elapsed since the contract was signed. Under the NHL's collective bargaining agreement with the NHLPA, "professional Games" is typically defined as all NHL regular season and playoff games. However, for players older than age 20, the definition expands to include AHL regular season and playoff games. The collective bargaining agreement refers to NHL games played, but also indicates that the clock is ticking on waivers for a player in his 20s, regardless of whether he plays a single game in the NHL.

Gustafsson has played exactly 80 professional games (77 in the AHL and 3 in the NHL) and, thus, is subject to waivers this season if his AHL games count toward waivers given when he signed his ELC. If Gustafsson had signed his entry level contract even a few months earlier -- when he had yet to celebrate his 21st birthday -- the games played threshold would have been 160 games.

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07-13-2011, 12:08 PM
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"For Players age 20 or older, professional games include NHL
Regular Season games, NHL playoff games, all minor league regular
season and playoff games
and any other professional games,
including but not limited to, play in European leagues when
Player is on loan to such Club and while Player is party to a
Player Contract."


That's from http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement13.asp

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07-13-2011, 12:09 PM
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Oh hell.

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07-13-2011, 12:11 PM
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Rick Deckard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
According to Meltzer, age at signing determines whether or not the AHL games count towards it... per his blog IIRC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
FWIW... Meltzer's exact words:

For players who sign their ELC at age 21, waiver eligibility kicks in either when the player has played 80 professional games or three years have elapsed since the contract was signed. Under the NHL's collective bargaining agreement with the NHLPA, "professional Games" is typically defined as all NHL regular season and playoff games. However, for players older than age 20, the definition expands to include AHL regular season and playoff games. The collective bargaining agreement refers to NHL games played, but also indicates that the clock is ticking on waivers for a player in his 20s, regardless of whether he plays a single game in the NHL.

Gustafsson has played exactly 80 professional games (77 in the AHL and 3 in the NHL) and, thus, is subject to waivers this season if his AHL games count toward waivers given when he signed his ELC. If Gustafsson had signed his entry level contract even a few months earlier -- when he had yet to celebrate his 21st birthday -- the games played threshold would have been 160 games.
That is just wrong. Ratchuk wasn't waived after the 2009 season for example.

On reverse it would mean that most college prospects were only exempt for one year, which isn't true.

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07-13-2011, 12:11 PM
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Protest
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That literally took me about 17.3 seconds. I googled "nhl cba waiver rules", and then read one paragraph. Can I be paid to work for the Flyers?

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07-13-2011, 12:13 PM
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Rick Deckard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
"For Players age 20 or older, professional games include NHL
Regular Season games, NHL playoff games, all minor league regular
season and playoff games
and any other professional games,
including but not limited to, play in European leagues when
Player is on loan to such Club and while Player is party to a
Player Contract."


That's from http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement13.asp
I guess thats the old CBA.

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07-13-2011, 12:17 PM
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Coppy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
"For Players age 20 or older, professional games include NHL
Regular Season games, NHL playoff games, all minor league regular
season and playoff games
and any other professional games,
including but not limited to, play in European leagues when
Player is on loan to such Club and while Player is party to a
Player Contract."


That's from http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement13.asp
That paragraph is in reference to this one:
" The first season in which a Player who is age 20 or older
plays in one or more "Professional Games" shall constitute the
first year for calculating the number of years he is exempt from
waivers."

It is used to determine the first year his contract is counted. It is not used to determine the amount of games played. That is still NHL games.

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07-13-2011, 12:19 PM
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According to the capgeek waiver calculator, he is exempt.

Edit: I was beaten.

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07-13-2011, 12:20 PM
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mirimon
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
I guess thats the old CBA.
Yup. "This Collective Bargaining Agreement ("CBA" or
"Agreement"), which is the product of bona fide, arm's length
collective bargaining, is entered into effective the 13th day of
January, 1995..."

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07-13-2011, 12:22 PM
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That's a relief.

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07-13-2011, 12:23 PM
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He is waiver exempt

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07-13-2011, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
I guess thats the old CBA.
That's possible. I did only spend 17.3 seconds on it.

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