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Old
07-14-2011, 06:05 PM
  #401
tuckrr
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
hahaha, +/-

Lidstrom was a minus player last season, Carle was +30. Does that mean Carle was better defensively than Lidstrom last season?
no, it means stats arent everything.

Malkins GA/60 is as much fleury and orpiks fault as his own.

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07-14-2011, 06:06 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
no, it means stats arent everything.

Malkins GA/60 is as much fleury and orpiks fault as his own.
No, it means that +/- is a bad stat for in depth analysis.

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07-14-2011, 06:10 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Since when? If he was so damn good defensively, he should stop getting scored on so much.

There is NOTHING misleading about GAON/60. It is an empirical stat. The player was on the ice for X minutes and had Y goals scored against. That's literally as basic as they *ing get.

And you can trust your physical observations all you want, but you're simply ignoring that human beings SUCK at objectively remembering reality with any accuracy. So your "physical observations" are worth about **** all in quick order if you don't back 'em up with actual facts.



Dude, you had no point. You created a paper tiger (a dumb one) which was easily burnt to the ground by noting that there is in fact a stat that nullifies the very claim you were trying to make (that we could not quantify the threat Crosby represented on the ice). We can. It's a completely straightforward rate statistic, which shows that Crosby was outproducing everyone in the NHL last year.

And, related to the terrible attack on GAON you've attempted, in your argument you displayed the very *ing reason you rely on averages.
I remember things Jester...remember last night what you said about Malkin?

im not even going to bother detailing why limited statistics of goals and assists (which is what all of your stats ARE based on) cannot begin to encompass all that happens in even just one shift.

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07-14-2011, 06:13 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No, it means that +/- is a bad stat for in depth analysis.
whos to say goals and assists arent bad 'in depth' analyzers?

how about speed of skating? speed and accuracy of shots? (ability to hit a target in a pressure situation)

those would tell you something about a player's skill as well.

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07-14-2011, 06:14 PM
  #405
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Sorry get off track here (shouldn't really be apologizing on this board I suppose, it is the done thing!) But why does it seem the concensus in N.A. is that football (soccer), is such a physically demanding, hard sport to play? Is it because you are not great at it? (though the progression of your national program in the last ten years is very impressive, especially when you consider China have thrown billions into theirs and they are still a bag of *****!) Seriously, over here evreyone is imersed in soccer from the day you are born, especially in the inner cities of Manchester, Liverpool and London, and it is not at all taxing to play compared to other sports, anyone from any other sport has almost no problem playing or training.

Premier league players train for a max of 3-4 hours a day (I know as my cousin played for Man City, though very briefly), just do a mile jog warm up, shuttle runs, skills then practice game, set pieces, and the intensity is very laid back, with usually one or two days off a week, and much of the gym work is optional. The average midfielder, the position who run the most, moves about 5-6 miles in a game, over 90 minutes, a mile every 15-18 mins, and that includes walking and sidestepping, you get massive rest periods as a defender or forward, which account to about 10-15 mins during play when you count the ball going out of play, the play being away from you.

Though the change of pace does mean that you need to be switched on, there is not much tactical awareness needed to play at a high level, look at Beckham, he was nearly kicked out of his 'soccer school', due to lack of academic achievement, when most of the players there get less than 5 GSCE's. He must have an IQ of about 80 (I'm being kind). Granted, there are some absolute specimins playing, Micah Richards, Nedum Onouha, Didier Drogba, C. Ronaldo to name a few, but you don't need to be, just physically fit.

Believe me, Rugby (both formats), American Football, Boxing and Waterpolo are far harder to train and play/fight, and you need to be in far better shape to compete to a similar level. All four need more strength, Rugby and American football more speed, Rugby, Boxing and Waterpolo more endurance, all more tactical awareness. If you want a comparison, I played against Kyle Eastmond (probably the most talented player in English rugby atm) at my highschool, and he was untouchable, and Vinny Finigan at college (who was in U-21 GB, premier league player), same there. Trained with Anthony Crolla (British Lightweight and Super Featherweight champion, top 40 at his weight in the world), and died trying to keep up with him running after 2 miles, trained and played with Ed Scott (best waterpolo keeper last year in Europe), Sean Ryder and Mike Bourne (GB waterpolo players), and they are something else physically.

On the other hand, played with or against Ishmael Miller (Engand U-21 footballer and premier league player) and James Tarkowski (Division 1, Oldham player) and Danny Philliskirk (Chelsea and England u-17 player), and yeah, they were very skilled and brilliant players (I am crap tbf compared to playing waterpolo and rugby), but the level of fitness they had, while impressive, is not in the same class as the others. Sorry for ranting, but I am at a total loss to explain why north americans especially believe football, soccer, is so elite physically. Who can't run 100 metres sub-12-12.5, and runs 5-6 miles over 90 mins (if you are fit that is) the skill in football is the hard bit, running fast with the ball, ball placement, dribbling, marking tight but not enough to let them knock it and go, and is elite, but the physical strain is not.
EPL sucks nuff said

Either way what the hell was the point of this post?

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Old
07-14-2011, 06:16 PM
  #406
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edit: missed a word, misread completely.

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Old
07-14-2011, 06:20 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
EPL sucks nuff said

Either way what the hell was the point of this post?
Just looking at the the discusion earlier in the thread regarding soccer compared to ice hockey tactics and fitness.

It seems in general that many North Americans believe soccer is extremely physically taxing, not just from this thread but from polls and scientific studies I have observed in the past, as well as individual opinion by North Americans I have met (though not sure if they were not just being polite when talking about our national sport!)

Was just interesting as to why there is this delusion (as I perceive it!)

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07-14-2011, 06:20 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
edit: missed a word, misread completely.


kidding of course

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07-14-2011, 06:21 PM
  #409
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edit: double post

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Old
07-14-2011, 06:22 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
whos to say goals and assists arent bad 'in depth' analyzers?

how about speed of skating? speed and accuracy of shots? (ability to hit a target in a pressure situation)

those would tell you something about a player's skill as well.

You know we have stats for almost all all of that, right?

edit: uh, are you implying that goals aren't an indicator of talent?

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07-14-2011, 06:25 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
hahaha, +/-

Lidstrom was a minus player last season, Carle was +30. Does that mean Carle was better defensively than Lidstrom last season?
Thank you. This is exactly my point. Stats mean NOTHING when taken out of context.

That goes for goals, assists, +/-, gaon/60. They don't mean anything without proper context.

A concept Jester is too thick headed to comprehend.

If I say Cheechoo was a 56 goal scorer, that's only half of reality. The other half is that he is a 56 goal scorer with a prime Thornton on his line. See how context matters, Jester? THAT is my point.

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07-14-2011, 06:28 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You know we have stats for almost all all of that, right?

edit: uh, are you implying that goals aren't an indicator of talent?
lets not imply, let me be clear:

when you go Entirely off of stats you get crazy comments about Malkin being better than carter (goal scoring, offensive talent, scoring, all around, however you want to slice it)

My point is stats Can help indicate talent and success etc. but they should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt, and you must also watch the player play.

Why do you think every club employs scouts? to read all the statistics or to watch the players?

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07-14-2011, 06:53 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
I remember things Jester...remember last night what you said about Malkin?

im not even going to bother detailing why limited statistics of goals and assists (which is what all of your stats ARE based on) cannot begin to encompass all that happens in even just one shift.
I would love to see your attempt at a critical assessment of statistics (note: simply noting other players and whatnot is not the place to start).

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07-14-2011, 06:54 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
lets not imply, let me be clear:

when you go Entirely off of stats you get crazy comments about Malkin being better than carter (goal scoring, offensive talent, scoring, all around, however you want to slice it)

My point is stats Can help indicate talent and success etc. but they should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt, and you must also watch the player play.

Why do you think every club employs scouts? to read all the statistics or to watch the players?
Why do you think Bill James has a job?

NHL teams are way behind the stat revolution.

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07-14-2011, 06:59 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Thank you. This is exactly my point. Stats mean NOTHING when taken out of context.

That goes for goals, assists, +/-, gaon/60. They don't mean anything without proper context.

A concept Jester is too thick headed to comprehend.

If I say Cheechoo was a 56 goal scorer, that's only half of reality. The other half is that he is a 56 goal scorer with a prime Thornton on his line. See how context matters, Jester? THAT is my point.
It is funny you call me "too thick headed to comprehend" attached to this doozy of dumb. Who takes stats without context. In this very thread I've used contextualized analysis. For example, on its face, Malkin's horrendous GAON/60 is just a number. Its when I put that number next to his teammates and the rest of the league that it emerges how much he's blown.

Of course, I'm not convinced you really understand how averages work with sample sizes, so it's really just pissing into the wind.


Last edited by Jester: 07-14-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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07-14-2011, 07:01 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
you take some stats and ignore others??

career +/- +25

clearly shows malkin is the worst defensive player in the game
Remember when you said Crosby "dominated" the league the last five years and I proved that your physical observation was wrong?

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07-14-2011, 07:02 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why do you think Bill James has a job?

NHL teams are way behind the stat revolution.
im sorry did i say stats werent important too?

please find me that quote.

I have been saying both are valid throughout, and at times statistics can lie so you must use observation to back up the Stats.

YOU on the other hand said that nothing other than statistical analysis is valid.

"So your "physical observations" are worth about **** all in quick order if you don't back 'em up with actual facts."

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07-14-2011, 07:04 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Remember when you said Crosby "dominated" the league the last five years and I proved that your physical observation was wrong?
actually i dont.

edit: are you sure that was me?

edit2: but he is a very elite player, and teams do spend entire games focused on trying to shut him down.


Last edited by tuckrr: 07-14-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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07-14-2011, 07:06 PM
  #419
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im sorry did i say stats werent important too?

please find me that quote.

I have been saying both are valid throughout, and at times statistics can lie so you must use observation to back up the Stats.

YOU on the other hand said that nothing other than statistical analysis is valid.

"So your "physical observations" are worth about **** all in quick order if you don't back 'em up with actual facts."
Find the quote where I said that.

And no, the fallacy of human memory is NOT the same thing as what you just claimed I said, so don't quote that.

For example, I could tell you Malkin blew defensively from watching him. I could not tell you that he was as bad as he actually is.

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07-14-2011, 07:07 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
actually i dont.

edit: are you sure that was me?
Your right, it was hockey freak.

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07-14-2011, 07:21 PM
  #421
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Btw, Crosby is a diving *****...let's not forget what board this is :p

While its true human memory isn't 100% factual, it is also true that statistics will never and can never fully quantify a sport (or anything) they can only strive to achieve such results (by using higher level statistics etc.)

But the level of certainty with which you use statistics is alarming. Especially given how small the sample size we are dealing with in sports.

Edit: and how we are only going off of results with goals /assists which do NOT tell the whole story.

Let me pose a question:
Do you think the best hockey team wins the Stanley cup each year?
It is a 7 game series...

I mean winning is a result, like scoring. Do results dictate 100% of the story?


Last edited by tuckrr: 07-14-2011 at 07:27 PM.
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07-14-2011, 09:23 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Btw, Crosby is a diving *****...let's not forget what board this is :p

While its true human memory isn't 100% factual, it is also true that statistics will never and can never fully quantify a sport (or anything) they can only strive to achieve such results (by using higher level statistics etc.)

But the level of certainty with which you use statistics is alarming. Especially given how small the sample size we are dealing with in sports.

Edit: and how we are only going off of results with goals /assists which do NOT tell the whole story.

Let me pose a question:
Do you think the best hockey team wins the Stanley cup each year?
It is a 7 game series...

I mean winning is a result, like scoring. Do results dictate 100% of the story?
Does a good goal scorer score every game?

You set up what I imagine you believe to be an intellectual trap, but actually represents an egregiously shallow understanding of statistical analysis. Statistics are certain. Malkin, Staal, etc. had those goals scored on them. It most certainly happened.

Making predictions off of statistics involves uncertainty (thus margin of error).

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07-14-2011, 09:26 PM
  #423
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The only highjacking greater than what has gone on in this thread happened in Goodfellows.

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Old
07-14-2011, 09:35 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Does a good goal scorer score every game?

You set up what I imagine you believe to be an intellectual trap, but actually represents an egregiously shallow understanding of statistical analysis. Statistics are certain. Malkin, Staal, etc. had those goals scored on them. It most certainly happened.

Making predictions off of statistics involves uncertainty (thus margin of error).
i understand the law of large numbers bud, im saying you cant put skill into a number.
edit: goals/getting scored on are not a pure reflection of the quality of the player.

WHY ELSE ARE THERE SCOUTS????


you are missing information if you dont take into account observation!

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07-14-2011, 09:57 PM
  #425
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should we just rename this thread: "1/2 Prospect Scrimmage, 1/2 why Jeff Carter is better or worse than these 20 people"

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