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Old
07-13-2011, 12:06 PM
  #151
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I don't like a situation where we have to rely on three players to replace the production of only one. Hopefully Jagr can just surprise many of us and pot 35.

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07-13-2011, 12:28 PM
  #152
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People get so caught up in the production of players it's unreal. It possible to be a really good team without everyone in the top 6 scoring 30 goals.

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07-13-2011, 12:49 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
People get so caught up in the production of players it's unreal. It possible to be a really good team without everyone in the top 6 scoring 30 goals.
Well, when you trade two of your best forwards and mostly replace them with people who haven't come close to producing what they did, it's going to create issues.

Going back to 2006, here are the winners of the Cup and where they placed overall during the Regular Season in terms of GF/G:

Boston: 5th (and Vancouver was 1st)
Chicago: 2nd
Pittsburgh: 6th (their opponent, Detroit, was 1st)
Detroit: 3rd
Anaheim: 9th
Carolina: 3rd

In most cases, teams who placed near the top of the league are the ones winning the Cup.

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07-13-2011, 12:57 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, when you trade two of your best forwards and mostly replace them with people who haven't come close to producing what they did, it's going to create issues.

Going back to 2006, here are the winners of the Cup and where they placed overall during the Regular Season in terms of GF/G:

Boston: 5th (and Vancouver was 1st)
Chicago: 2nd
Pittsburgh: 6th (their opponent, Detroit, was 1st)
Detroit: 3rd
Anaheim: 9th
Carolina: 3rd

In most cases, teams who placed near the top of the league are the ones winning the Cup.
Similarly, teams tend to produce good defensive numbers when they are good.

Boston 2nd (vancouver 1st)
Chicago 5th
Pittsburgh 17th (we might recall they were stellar after the coaching change)
Detroit 1st
Anaheim 7th
Carolina 19th

So the only teams that won with team D outside the top 10 was a team that was the first year after the lockout, and a Pens team that had a coaching change and began to trap to holy hell.

Stats matter.

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07-13-2011, 01:01 PM
  #155
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The thing is, it doesn't matter what centres we have out against Crosby/ stamkos / Malkin ect. It's not like mike and jeff did anything to slow them down over the years. You could count the amount of games that Crosby has been shut down in with one hand. Even then you would be wasting 3 fingers

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07-13-2011, 01:20 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The thing is, it doesn't matter what centres we have out against Crosby/ stamkos / Malkin ect. It's not like mike and jeff did anything to slow them down over the years. You could count the amount of games that Crosby has been shut down in with one hand. Even then you would be wasting 3 fingers
absolutely the best post i've read to day.

shut down ability is hugely valuable, but its not equivalent to goal scoring ability and we need to recognize/appreciate that i bit more on this board.

Forwards need to help out and back check more then d-men need to score, but forwards who can put up goals big time are more valuable than we give them credit for.

thats why (IMO) roo is such a complete player.
1st Score
2nd physical/energetic every night
3rd strong passionate defense
perfect.

(hands like that dont grow on trees )

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07-13-2011, 01:26 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The thing is, it doesn't matter what centres we have out against Crosby/ stamkos / Malkin ect. It's not like mike and jeff did anything to slow them down over the years. You could count the amount of games that Crosby has been shut down in with one hand. Even then you would be wasting 3 fingers
So I guess the Conn Smyth winner from last years playoffs (Towes) being shut down for virtually the entire Finals series had nothing to do with Mike Richards?

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07-13-2011, 01:27 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The thing is, it doesn't matter what centres we have out against Crosby/ stamkos / Malkin ect. It's not like mike and jeff did anything to slow them down over the years. You could count the amount of games that Crosby has been shut down in with one hand. Even then you would be wasting 3 fingers
So what exactly are you getting at? First you say great point producers aren't all that important. Now you're saying we shouldn't bother having solid two way forwards, because they had trouble stopping those great producers you dismissed. Why bother having any players at all?

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07-13-2011, 01:28 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Flyer Rob View Post
So I guess the Conn Smyth winner from last years playoffs (Towes) being shut down for virtually the entire Finals series had nothing to do with Mike Richards?
if we had played the pens that year im not sure we'd have gotten that far.

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07-13-2011, 01:28 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
absolutely the best post i've read to day.

shut down ability is hugely valuable, but its not equivalent to goal scoring ability and we need to recognize/appreciate that i bit more on this board.

Forwards need to help out and back check more then d-men need to score, but forwards who can put up goals big time are more valuable than we give them credit for.

thats why (IMO) roo is such a complete player.
1st Score
2nd physical/energetic every night
3rd strong passionate defense
perfect.

(hands like that dont grow on trees )
Preventing the other team from scoring is just as important as scoring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
if we had played the pens that year im not sure we'd have gotten that far.
That's more a function of the goaltenders in net, than the defensive effort of the team.

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07-13-2011, 01:29 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
if we had played the pens that year im not sure we'd have gotten that far.
we certainly had all the dominos fall into place for us that year

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07-13-2011, 01:30 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Preventing the other team from scoring is just as important as scoring.
see that is not true.

from a per player basis that is simply untrue.

from a TEAM basis sure, but the flyers actually have a goalie this year.

I AM ALL ABOUT TWO WAY PLAYERS, dont get me wrong here...but elite scoring talent is worth more than elite shutting down ability

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07-13-2011, 01:35 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
see that is not true.

from a per player basis that is simply untrue.

from a TEAM basis sure, but the flyers actually have a goalie this year.

I AM ALL ABOUT TWO WAY PLAYERS, dont get me wrong here...but elite scoring talent is worth more than elite shutting down ability
Depends. If you score a lot, but also get scored on a lot... That mitigates your value. It's rather easy for a 60 point guy to be just as valuable to your team winning games as an 80 point guy.

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07-13-2011, 01:40 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
see that is not true.

from a per player basis that is simply untrue.

from a TEAM basis sure, but the flyers actually have a goalie this year.

I AM ALL ABOUT TWO WAY PLAYERS, dont get me wrong here...but elite scoring talent is worth more than elite shutting down ability
Yeah, Zherdev's elite goalscoring ability really took him places.

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07-13-2011, 02:04 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So what exactly are you getting at? First you say great point producers aren't all that important. Now you're saying we shouldn't bother having solid two way forwards, because they had trouble stopping those great producers you dismissed. Why bother having any players at all?
I think you missed my point. Defense is a team attribute. Even with two of the best d forwards in the league we did nothing to hamper the scorers in the NHL. Someone brought up toewes. Are you so sure he was the one being shut down? On the other hand you don't have 6 30 goal scorers. Boston is a fine example

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07-13-2011, 02:13 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't like a situation where we have to rely on three players to replace the production of only one. Hopefully Jagr can just surprise many of us and pot 35.
As motivated as he seems to be now, I fear by Christmas Jagr will be Kovalev 2.0

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07-13-2011, 02:19 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I think you missed my point. Defense is a team attribute. Even with two of the best d forwards in the league we did nothing to hamper the scorers in the NHL. Someone brought up toewes. Are you so sure he was the one being shut down? On the other hand you don't have 6 30 goal scorers. Boston is a fine example
Defense is a team attribute, but if nobody on your team is any good at defense then your team isn't going to be good at defense.


Boston won the cup because of Thomas, not because of their lack of 6 30 goal scorers.

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07-13-2011, 02:22 PM
  #168
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Hartnell - briere - lieno. All defensive specialists.

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07-13-2011, 02:26 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Hartnell - briere - lieno. All defensive specialists.
Hartnell is actually a pretty decent defensive forward, and he certainly doesn't lack for effort on the defensive side of the game. He did a LOT of defensive work for the other two to keep their head above water defensively (marginally, they still weren't great given they tended to play against weaker lines). Similar to the work that Carter did on Giroux's line, Hartnell spent a lot of time down low dealing with center defensive zone responsibilities.

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07-13-2011, 02:28 PM
  #170
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I think the reason they felt they could deal Carter and Richards was that Giroux's was ALREADY the top line last year. He was leading scorer, etc. Replace an out of position Carter with Jagr and you might not lose that much, esp. if JVR and G can continue to improve as expected.

That leaves Voracek and Briere on the next line - someone on O&B board says Hartnell told someone 'I'm gone', so heck knows whether any of the above players will be in the lineup by Training Camp.....

Hmmm, that could really throw a monkey wrench in things. I wonder if it's him who has had it with Holmgren and HE is asking for a trade or if Holmgren asked him to waive his NTC?

I'd be OK with Simmons taking over Hartnells role on the team. We'd have almost 8 mil in cap space with 11 forwards, 7 dmen, and 2 goalies signed. We could then DEFINITELY OS Stamkos and fit him in under the cap (Schenn has to spend the year in the AHL).

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07-13-2011, 02:28 PM
  #171
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haha trust me man, none taken. im the kid who wears a t shirt (the kid who picked out our jerseys picked out shirts that were waaaay too heavy) but yeah those ferrel brothers just whine the entire game, its ashame cause they are extremely skilled. good game nonetheless
they do have the most fans at the game though

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07-13-2011, 02:34 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Hartnell - briere - lieno. All defensive specialists.
Hartnell is adequate defensively, and Leino was a solid backchecker during his run in the playoffs and the first half of the year. Briere has never been good defensively, but when our other two centers were Richards and Carter it didn't really matter. Our problem with our current lineup is the lack of team defense, and a lack of a shutdown center. Betts/Talbot do not count because they can't play big minutes.

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07-13-2011, 02:34 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Hartnell - briere - lieno. All defensive specialists.
Uh...yeah, exactly. If you have people who aren't good at defense, then the defense isn't going to be good. We just traded our best two way players and we haven't really replaced them. Do you recall how the team's defense was noticeably worse after Gagne and Lappy were out? We just removed two more huge pieces, and they haven't really been replaced. Defense is going to be worse.


What exactly are you arguing? I think we have a fundamental failure to communicate.

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07-13-2011, 02:41 PM
  #174
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Our problem with our current lineup is the lack of team defense, and a lack of a shutdown center.
team D was problem last season...

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07-13-2011, 02:56 PM
  #175
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team D was problem last season...
Well its about to get worse, unless some of our young players start to round out their games.

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