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Old
07-13-2011, 03:03 PM
  #176
flyersfan187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Defense is a team attribute, but if nobody on your team is any good at defense then your team isn't going to be good at defense.


Boston won the cup because of Thomas, not because of their lack of 6 30 goal scorers.
With the help of their team defense also. Thomas wouldn't have stood a chance at goal with our team and our constant 2 on 1s against

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07-13-2011, 03:11 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
With the help of their team defense also. Thomas wouldn't have stood a chance at goal with our team and our constant 2 on 1s against
Yeah, I'm not saying team defense isn't important. Regardless of that, Thomas was still spectacular.

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Old
07-13-2011, 03:59 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Depends. If you score a lot, but also get scored on a lot... That mitigates your value. It's rather easy for a 60 point guy to be just as valuable to your team winning games as an 80 point guy.
yea and the sky is blue...obviously if you dont play good defense teams wont want you, but that doesnt change the point i made that people (especially on this board) arent giving credit to the players with elite scoring ability
(something richards lacked and guys like Stamkos definitely have)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, Zherdev's elite goalscoring ability really took him places.
see above...
Z was a bum on defense, OBVIOUSLY as a player that makes his stock plummet
(he was also a terrible locker room cancer)

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07-13-2011, 04:18 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Hmmm, that could really throw a monkey wrench in things. I wonder if it's him who has had it with Holmgren and HE is asking for a trade or if Holmgren asked him to waive his NTC?

I'd be OK with Simmons taking over Hartnells role on the team. We'd have almost 8 mil in cap space with 11 forwards, 7 dmen, and 2 goalies signed. We could then DEFINITELY OS Stamkos and fit him in under the cap (Schenn has to spend the year in the AHL).
Yeah, I don't know if the rumours are true, and the guy could not reveal his source, only the that words 'I'm gone' came from Hartnell's lips - no indication if he heard it or someone else. The poster is a long time member with only a few posts, but another frequent poster said he heard the same thing, Hartnell's leaving, but neither had any more details on where, why or for whom.

Could be a completely bogus rumour, but to come from two guys on the same day makes me thing they heard something.

The fact that no one else in the Twitterverse is talking about it is puzzling.

We'll see - nothing would surprise me now and after the inside info that 'r******e' had about the June 23 deals, anything or any leak of info is possible.

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Old
07-13-2011, 04:23 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
yea and the sky is blue...obviously if you dont play good defense teams wont want you, but that doesnt change the point i made that people (especially on this board) arent giving credit to the players with elite scoring ability
(something richards lacked and guys like Stamkos definitely have)



see above...
Z was a bum on defense, OBVIOUSLY as a player that makes his stock plummet
(he was also a terrible locker room cancer)
If anything, the opposite is true. We had some pretty elite goalscoring ability in Jeff Carter, and he was consistently getting berated.

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Old
07-13-2011, 04:53 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If anything, the opposite is true. We had some pretty elite goalscoring ability in Jeff Carter, and he was consistently getting berated.
yea, by you guys.

I really wouldnt call his ability "elite" his numbers sure were though...

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07-13-2011, 04:54 PM
  #182
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I just don't see Stamkos being able to produce what he did before without St. Louis

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Old
07-13-2011, 04:57 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
yea, by you guys.

I really wouldnt call his ability "elite" his numbers sure were though...
That doesn't make any sense at all.

Did he accidentally score between 35 and 46 goals a year, and routinely place near the top 2% of goalscoring for all NHL players?

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07-13-2011, 05:03 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That doesn't make any sense at all.

Did he accidentally score between 35 and 46 goals a year, and routinely place near the top 2% of goalscoring for all NHL players?
yes it does, player A can have more success than player B even if player B is more talented.
if you go purely by numbers you are missing the whole picture.

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07-13-2011, 05:04 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That doesn't make any sense at all.

Did he accidentally score between 35 and 46 goals a year, and routinely place near the top 2% of goalscoring for all NHL players?



Have to agree here, it's not like pucks were bouncing in off his head on a regular basis.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:06 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
yes it does, player A can have more success than player B even if player B is more talented.
if you go purely by numbers you are missing the whole picture.



Don't see a whole lot wrong with his skillset either. He's a fast big bodied center who's responsible in his own end and scores with the elite scorers. I really don't see what makes him not as good, or what is really lacking talent wise.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:08 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
yes it does, player A can have more success than player B even if player B is more talented.
if you go purely by numbers you are missing the whole picture.
Now you're making even less sense.

You're saying that his last 3 seasons of 46 goals, 34 goals (would have been higher if not for the broken feet), and 36 goals (would have been higher if the PP did ANYTHING) were a complete fluke, based on dumb luck? The guy is clearly very talented, and you're just working as hard as you can to ignore that.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:13 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Don't see a whole lot wrong with his skillset either. He's a fast big bodied center who's responsible in his own end and scores with the elite scorers. I really don't see what makes him not as good, or what is really lacking talent wise.
hands for one.
creativity for another.
vision is certainly something as well
Carter is a very "athletic" player (some say naturally talented skater/shooter...)

hes no where NEAR the level of offensive talent of the following:
crosby
malkin
ovechkin
datsyuk
zetterberg
st louis
stamkos
gaborik
Nash
Thornton
E. Staal
Kane
Kovalchuk
Hossa

and thats just off the top of my head...


Now he's real good, and he scores a lot sure but his talent level is not comparable to that list.

(also hes better at defense than some of those guys, but not all of them. And a lot of them hes close or marginally better at best)

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07-13-2011, 05:16 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
hands for one.
creativity for another.
vision is certainly something as well
Carter is a very "athletic" player (some say naturally talented skater/shooter...)

hes no where NEAR the level of offensive talent of the following:
crosby
malkin
ovechkin
datsyuk
zetterberg
st louis
stamkos
gaborik
Nash
Thornton
E. Staal
Kane
Kovalchuk
Hossa

and thats just off the top of my head...


Now he's real good, and he scores a lot sure but his talent level is not comparable to that list.

(also hes better at defense than some of those guys, but not all of them. And a lot of them hes close or marginally better at best)
Who cares if he's flashy or talented? He gets the job done, often by creating scoring chances for himself largely on his own. Know who's flashy and talented? Zherdev. Pure talent isn't everything. I don't care if you're super creative in how you score a goal, all I care about is that you are capable of putting the puck in the net. Jeff Carter is very good at that. Better than most people in the NHL.

Bottom line is, we had premier goal scoring talent on this team, and it wasn't appreciated by a great many.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:22 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Now you're making even less sense.

You're saying that his last 3 seasons of 46 goals, 34 goals (would have been higher if not for the broken feet), and 36 goals (would have been higher if the PP did ANYTHING) were a complete fluke, based on dumb luck? The guy is clearly very talented, and you're just working as hard as you can to ignore that.
of course thats what im saying

did you even bother to read what i said?

I'll bet carter continues to score a lot of goals. hes good at that. but does that change the fact that hes not as skilled as the real ELITE in the league?
NO

yes hes talented, so is richards, so is Jordan staal, so is a LOT of the league...
but hes not a superstar, even if thats what his numbers say.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:25 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Who cares if he's flashy or talented? He gets the job done, often by creating scoring chances for himself largely on his own. Know who's flashy and talented? Zherdev. Pure talent isn't everything. I don't care if you're super creative in how you score a goal, all I care about is that you are capable of putting the puck in the net. Jeff Carter is very good at that. Better than most people in the NHL.

Bottom line is, we had premier goal scoring talent on this team, and it wasn't appreciated by a great many.
not at all what im saying bud.

my point was that elite offensive talent is underrated on these boards and you did me a great service by proving my point today.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:27 PM
  #192
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Dude, he SHOWS his talent by SCORING LOTS OF GOALS. It takes LOTS OF TALENT to score LOTS OF GOALS over SEVERAL SEASONS.

This isn't rocket science.

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07-13-2011, 05:28 PM
  #193
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Gotta love how every thread has Jeff Carter and/or Mike Richards in it.

I have a feeling this is going to continue to happen for the next 5 or so years.

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07-13-2011, 05:29 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Right...play hard--but taking an obvious cheap (and illegal) shot against a touted prospect seems unlikely to help him making the opening roster on at least two levels.
Young players need to learn that the rules WILL NOT protect you. Just because it is illegal doesnt mean you are safe. Its impossible to be completely aware of everything 100% of the time, but it pays to kep your head up.

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07-13-2011, 05:33 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Gotta love how every thread has Jeff Carter and/or Mike Richards in it.

I have a feeling this is going to continue to happen for the next 5 or so years.
It will get even more interesting if Carter and/or Richards are really producing, and some of our prospects are going through slumps.

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07-13-2011, 05:37 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
It will get even more interesting if Carter and/or Richards are really producing, and some of our prospects are going through slumps.
Richards with a Selke, Carter with 50+ goal season and beastly playoff play... while Schenn is demoted to the AHL after failing to keep up with the tempo in the NHL. My home town wouldn't know why the hell I started to riot.

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Old
07-13-2011, 05:40 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Dude, he SHOWS his talent by SCORING LOTS OF GOALS. It takes LOTS OF TALENT to score LOTS OF GOALS over SEVERAL SEASONS.

This isn't rocket science.
you said it best yourself...carter generates offense on his own. A good hockey player can do that, a GREAT hockey player uses and makes his teammates better. (and can also generate offense on his own)

Teams win games not Players (and also carter has a ridiculous amount of shots taken)

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07-13-2011, 05:48 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
you said it best yourself...carter generates offense on his own. A good hockey player can do that, a GREAT hockey player uses and makes his teammates better. (and can also generate offense on his own)

Teams win games not Players (and also carter has a ridiculous amount of shots taken)
You are aware that it isn't easy to get in a position to put shots on net in the NHL, right? Otherwise everyone's shot totals would be much higher. It takes talent.


edit: You don't think Giroux benefited from having Carter on his wing?

Edit2: Whatever, I'm done anyways. Guy doesn't even play for the team.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 07-13-2011 at 05:53 PM.
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Old
07-13-2011, 05:52 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
you said it best yourself...carter generates offense on his own. A good hockey player can do that, a GREAT hockey player uses and makes his teammates better. (and can also generate offense on his own)

Teams win games not Players (and also carter has a ridiculous amount of shots taken)
Players who score a lot of goals are going to take a lot of shots. How else are they going to score?

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Old
07-13-2011, 06:34 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Teams win games not Players (and also carter has a ridiculous amount of shots taken)
Teams that score the most goals in the game win the game. That's how they keep the score.

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