Looks like 3B prospect Francisco Rodriguez and a PTBNL are also going to Seattle. Regardless, I'm really liking this trade. We strengthen our rotation and the pen, while not grossly overpaying and keeping our big prospects in our organization. Also, Fister is cheap and under club control for a few more years, opening up money to either extend guys on our roster or make a harder push in free agency (or trade for a guy with a contract someone is looking to move - which might be more likely). DD did well.
I was kinda hoping they'd have Furbush and Fister on the team at the same time....oh well.....
I know they needed a starter now, and I know Fister is under control for a bunch of seasons, but ... this is a lot to give up and Fister isn't that good.
Furbush, I don't know. He seems like 5th starter or LOOGY material. Wells is going to be a good solid MLB hitter - I don't know if he'll be a star, but he can rake if they'd ever give him the chance.
Martinez is the big one here IMO. He's 20 and flying up the ranks. I know they drafted Castellanos at the same position and gave him a ton of money, but that doesn't mean Martinez is all of a sudden disposable. He's several years closer to the majors than Castellanos and the Tigers, y'know, REALLY NEED a third baseman in the next year or two. If both guys pan out, you can deal with that problem later when both guys have a lot more value.
Fister is a soft-tossing righty - I don't mind his horrific win/loss record because he played for the M's, and while I respect his low ERA, his WHIP is not outstanding and he pitched mainly in a very pitcher-friendly park. He looks a lot like a mediocre 5th starter, which they already have plenty of.
Don't know about Pauley but he's been a free agent a bunch of times in the last few years so they could have had him for nothing if he was such hot ****.
What I do like about the deal is that it means they won't be flushing their entire future down the toilet giving up Turner and Castellanos and whoever else for Jimenez. Hopefully these guys are better than I think they are and Martinez bombs out...
I think you're selling Fister a bit short. He might not K a bunch of guys, but he'll eat innings, walk very few, and his whip isn't bad (tied for 11th among pitchers who have thrown 120+ innings this season). And (so far, anyway) we keep Turner.
Looking at next season's rotation, we could comfortably slot Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Fister and Turner into it,while having Oliver, Below and maybe Crosby in reserve. It's also a very affordable rotation, allowing us to maybe go after a guy like Carlos Beltran for right field next year.
As for third base, Rodriguez looked good in our system, but that's not necessarily saying much. And I think there is a good chance we re-sign Betemit. He's just 29 yrs old, and Castallenos may end up being moved to LF. So locking Betemit up for a few years could be a solid move.
I think you're selling Fister a bit short. He might not K a bunch of guys, but he'll eat innings, walk very few, and his whip isn't bad (tied for 11th among pitchers who have thrown 120+ innings this season). And (so far, anyway) we keep Turner.
Looking at next season's rotation, we could comfortably slot Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Fister and Turner into it,while having Oliver, Below and maybe Crosby in reserve. It's also a very affordable rotation, allowing us to maybe go after a guy like Carlos Beltran for right field next year.
As for third base, Rodriguez looked good in our system, but that's not necessarily saying much. And I think there is a good chance we re-sign Betemit. He's just 29 yrs old, and Castallenos may end up being moved to LF. So locking Betemit up for a few years could be a solid move.
I remember a deal the Tigers made a couple years back when they picked up a soft-tossing Seattle starting pitcher who didn't strike anyone out but would supposedly eat innings and get the Tigers to the playoffs....I'm not writing his Tigers obit yet but I'm not sold.
Betemit isn't all that good either - he's better than Inge (so am I, and so are you...) but he's still basically a replacement-level player. And they're still platooning him with Don Kelly anyway, so I'm not sure what the point of that deal was. I think Leyland picks his lineups by drawing names out of a hat, using one slip per player and 100 slips for Don Kelly....
Wells could have been their RF if they'd given him the chances they gave Raburn, Dirks, etc. Now they'll end up spending on a time bomb like Beltran who's ready to explode once he gets a big new expensive contract.
I would have been happier if they'd picked up someone like Guthrie. He's not great, but he'd be cheaper and he's just as likely to be decent as Fister.
edit - don't forget they also threw in a PTBNL, which is reportedly going to be Ruffin or Smyly. So that's another high draft pick and top prospect out the door in this stinker.
I remember a deal the Tigers made a couple years back when they picked up a soft-tossing Seattle starting pitcher who didn't strike anyone out but would supposedly eat innings and get the Tigers to the playoffs....I'm not writing his Tigers obit yet but I'm not sold.
Betemit isn't all that good either - he's better than Inge (so am I, and so are you...) but he's still basically a replacement-level player. And they're still platooning him with Don Kelly anyway, so I'm not sure what the point of that deal was. I think Leyland picks his lineups by drawing names out of a hat, using one slip per player and 100 slips for Don Kelly....
Wells could have been their RF if they'd given him the chances they gave Raburn, Dirks, etc. Now they'll end up spending on a time bomb like Beltran who's ready to explode once he gets a big new expensive contract.
I would have been happier if they'd picked up someone like Guthrie. He's not great, but he'd be cheaper and he's just as likely to be decent as Fister.
edit - don't forget they also threw in a PTBNL, which is reportedly going to be Ruffin or Smyly. So that's another high draft pick and top prospect out the door in this stinker.
Washburn was also like 7 years older and was known to be having troubles with his knee, but was pitching well despite it. And while Washburn didn't work out, DD made out like a bandit when he dealt them Santiago for Guillen. I think Fister will step in and help solidify the back end of our rotation, and that should be enough to win the division. And even if Ruffin or Smyly is the the PTBNL, I still think we win this deal. And I'd much rather have made this deal than give up the equivalent of what Cleveland just gave up for Jimenez.
With Betemit, I agree, he has been a replacement level guy, but I don't hold him being platooned with Kelly against him. Like you, I think Leyland seems lost with the lineup card on occasion. But Betemit his .270, gets on base decently and isn't a total butcher with the glove. Would I like someone better? Yeah, but there isn't a whole lot out there.
And I think you're higher on Wells than I am. I like him more defensively than Dirks but if I had to choose between them, I'd just flip a coin, and I wouldn't want either of them starting. Raburn, though, is another Leyland special. He usually picks it up after the AS break, but he's been brutal for 80 games this year.
Not sure I see why picking up Beltran would be a negative, though, especially if he's willing to slide into right field. He doesn't have big power numbers, but he still swings a good bat and playing right field should help him health wise.
I just hope we have a manager who can fill out a lineup card a bit better next year, though Leyland has actually looked conscious most of this season and not asleep with a smoke between his lips to wake himself up every three innings when it burns down and burns his lips.
See they lost today, but Turner did alright for a kid. Hope Shoalzie had an elephant ear for me.
I had to laugh at some of the people that showed up at the game today and said "where's Duane Below?" Not everyone was oblivious to what transpired this morning but several didn't seem to know how to react when Turner was introduced.
Turner threw well for a debut...got into trouble a little too often but was able to get away with minimal damage. He was bound to not go long because he threw too many pitches to get out of an inning. The 4th inning was his best one...1-2-3 inning with 9 pitches.
He was up near 50 in the 3rd while Haren wasn't near 50 until the 5th inning. You could who was the veteran and who was the rookie. Haren was strong...for as much as the Tigers hitters would fight off pitches, he didn't give and threw 8 strong innings. Turner would get out of trouble with a good defensive play but he'd have guys in scoring position. This game could've been a lot worse.
I'm looking forward to Verlander vs. Weaver...the Tigers need this game bad with Cleveland winning tonight and will probably get a jolt of energy from potentially getting Jimenez. The Twins are now just 5-1/2 back...it's dangerously close to being a 4-horse race in the Central.
The Fister deal should help but it's not a move that is going to be earthshaking in magnitude compared to the Indians adding Jimenez. You can't have one spot in your rotation where you're more likely to lose. You shouldn't give a game away because the starting pitcher in every 5th day doesn't give you a chance to win. Fister has pitched well enough this year to give the Mariners a chance to win.
A guy like him ends up with a 3-12 record because you have a 3.33 ERA but you're getting only 3.02 runs of support per start. He got the WORST run support in the Majors of any starting pitcher. If anyone wants to bristle at his win-loss record...remember, this is the same team that just went on a 17 game losing streak. Not even King Felix could pull them out of that nose dive.
I had lunch/dinner at Redsmoke BBQ in Greektown...had a pulled pork sammich and 2 Bell's Amber Ales before strolling to the park. It was a hot one out there...a little too warm for a sweet treat I'm afraid. I had one beer and a bottled water at the game. Thankfully the sunscreen did its job.
Hopefully they send Turner back down and let him keep developing. And hopefully they don't trade him. Those are my two biggest fears about the guy - that the team will deal him or they'll call him up before he's ready and prevent him from developing into the pitcher he appears he can be - some day.
I'm willing to be patient and wait to make a verdict on Fister, but he's going to have to be a 3rd starter type of performer to justify the price they paid. And I hope like hell my hunch is wrong...
Eh, prices are higher in baseball than hockey when it comes to prospects. Look at what the Indians just gave up for Jimenez; the equivalent of Turner, Oliver, Ruffin, and a Toledo regular. Fister isn't a world-beater, but he's under-rated, and the Tigers gave up a lot less than Cleveland. I'm all about trading prospects like pogs for known quantities, but I also think there are always a couple guys in the system you want to protect almost every time (Turner and Castellanos for the Tigers), so I'll take the trade the Tigers made over the trade the Indians made every time.
Hopefully they send Turner back down and let him keep developing. And hopefully they don't trade him. Those are my two biggest fears about the guy - that the team will deal him or they'll call him up before he's ready and prevent him from developing into the pitcher he appears he can be - some day.
I'm willing to be patient and wait to make a verdict on Fister, but he's going to have to be a 3rd starter type of performer to justify the price they paid. And I hope like hell my hunch is wrong...
The Turner call up was a one-time thing...Fister would naturally take the Below spot in the rotation. He'll throw Wednesday against Texas.
Watching Wells in Seattle will be a lot like watching Joyce in Tampa Bay...seemed ready to play full time and once they do get a chance to play every day...how do they do? Wells looks like a solid defensive outfielder...haven't seen him hit enough to know how good he'll be. Joyce in his time with the Tigers was more stick than glove.
Some good Lions news...sounds like they've signed Stephen Tulloch (according to the Free). I wonder if that means they won't sign Barnett. Tulloch is a middle linebacker. They need to get their secondary sured up now.
Eh, prices are higher in baseball than hockey when it comes to prospects. Look at what the Indians just gave up for Jimenez; the equivalent of Turner, Oliver, Ruffin, and a Toledo regular. Fister isn't a world-beater, but he's under-rated, and the Tigers gave up a lot less than Cleveland. I'm all about trading prospects like pogs for known quantities, but I also think there are always a couple guys in the system you want to protect almost every time (Turner and Castellanos for the Tigers), so I'll take the trade the Tigers made over the trade the Indians made every time.
Looking at the Indians deal, they didn't give up anyone remotely close to Turner. Turner is a top-10 prospect, but it looks like the best guy the Indians gave up was a borderline top-50 guy, plus some miscellaneous guys ranging from pretty good to overage AAA nobodies.
If the Tigers would have had to give up Turner to get Jimenez, I'm glad they didn't make that deal. That doesn't change the fact that they gave up a ton for Fister and it doesn't look to me like he has proven he's worth even close to that much. It's strange that the Rockies were apparently demanding Turner, Porcello, or Scherzer from the Tigers, and then they take a pretty mediocre return from the Indians.
In any case, we'll see how it turns out. If they end up winning the world series, I won't give a crap who they gave up. If they make the playoffs, I might not give a crap who they gave up. If they miss the playoffs anyway, I reserve the right to be pissed off. And it also kinda depends on who the PTBNL is.
Now THAT was a wild game...JV was awesome as usual. We almost saw another no-no where the pitcher gave up a run. I'm not going to defend Guillen...that was crap what he did to Weaver but Weaver took the bait and got himself thrown out of the game after the ump issued warnings. I don't think Magglio's ball has landed.
Royals up in the 8th...maybe the lead can get back to 2-1/2 going into the off day and the start of the big series with the Rangers.
Didn't see the game but from the recaps it sounds like Magglio was watching to see if his ball would stay fair and Weaver thought he was showing him up - I highly doubt Magglio would ever try to show anyone up. Then Weaver started yapping at everyone and Guillen decided to stick it to him for being a punk.
Weaver should know better, on both counts - he can't get all pissed at Magglio for watching to see if his hit goes foul, and he can't let Guillen get to him and then get himself thrown out of a game. Dumbass.
Too bad JV missed the no-no. He's what, 9 or 10 outs away from having 3 of them this season? Crazy.
Looking at the Indians deal, they didn't give up anyone remotely close to Turner. Turner is a top-10 prospect, but it looks like the best guy the Indians gave up was a borderline top-50 guy, plus some miscellaneous guys ranging from pretty good to overage AAA nobodies.
No, Turner is the #11 prospect according to Baseball America. Pomeranz is the #14 prospect. I'd say that's remotely close. White, meanwhile, is actually rated significantly higher than Oliver. Gardner ranks about the same in the Indians org as Ruffin in Detroit's. McBride is a AAA regular. If anything, I was being kind in my comparison.
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It's strange that the Rockies were apparently demanding Turner, Porcello, or Scherzer from the Tigers, and then they take a pretty mediocre return from the Indians.
Well. They didn't. They got about the same from Cleveland as what they were apparently asking for from Detroit.
No, Turner is the #11 prospect according to Baseball America. Pomeranz is the #14 prospect. I'd say that's remotely close. White, meanwhile, is actually rated significantly higher than Oliver. Gardner ranks about the same in the Indians org as Ruffin in Detroit's. McBride is a AAA regular. If anything, I was being kind in my comparison.
Well. They didn't. They got about the same from Cleveland as what they were apparently asking for from Detroit.
I hadn't noticed that Pomeranz was the PTBNL, but still - Scherzer and Porcello are established big-league starters. A comparable deal on that front from Cleveland would have included someone like Tomlin, Carrasco or Masterson. I suppose it's logical that they asked for more from the Tigers and didn't get it, so the best offer they could get was Cleveland's (and that was less than what they tried to get from the Tigers).
The Scott Sizemore Experience is hitting .149/.281/.284 since July 4th - that's an OPS of .565 for those of you scoring at home, with almost thrice as many strikeouts as hits. That's very Brandonesque right there.
Raburn is actually hitting .300 with an .889 OPS since then, and Guillen has hit .280/.756 since coming back. I'm surprised by both of these facts. Maybe the Tigers will be ok at 2B after all.
Even if Purcey ends up being total garbage, the deal still looks like a wash. And Sizemore wouldn't have helped them.
Sizemore was a bust...Purcey being crap is not really a huge loss in the end.
Looking at the big 3-way trade a year later...Granderson is killing it right now with the Yanks now that's had a year to adjust and he's healthy.
Scherzer can be very good and very average. I've been pleased with his acquisition. Edwin Jackson is showing himself that he's a very solid middle of the rotation starter but Scherzer appears to have more upside at this point.
Coke is quickly losing it. He was strong last year as a setup man but he never got it going as a starter and as a reliever, he's as bad as Purcey from the left side.
Schlereth looks like he could be a decent lefty reliever but he's got control issues the same way Perry has had issues.
Jackson overachieved last year so probably expectations for him this year were too high but it appears he's improving. Since the break, his average has gone up but his OBP has gone down. If he's got any hope of stealing 30-40 bases a year, he has to work on getting on base. He's not a very good hitter when he gets behind in the count.
Dombo's worst deal in my view is the Jurjjens/Ramirez for Renteria deal. Imagine having Jurjjens in this rotation instead of Penny? It's worked out great with the Cabrera trade, Guillen has been a gem in his days as a Tiger and who would've expected Peralta to blossom like this? This team is in first place (albeit in a mediocre division)...Dombo would probably be exposed in a tougher division.
The Jurrjens deal will sting forever. Stupid Braves trades. NEVER TRADE WITH THE BRAVES.
I'm not too worried about losing Granderson - he wasn't figuring it out in Detroit and he's got the perfect mix of short right field porch and Yankee Steroid Cocktail helping him out now. He would not have been this player as a Tiger.
Scherzer has a lot of potential but I do kinda wish that they had held onto Ian Kennedy in that deal. He's not a flamethrower but he's clearly the better pitcher. Schlereth doesn't look like anything special. I think Coke will be fine next year but they've probably thrown him off too much for him to get back to his 2010 form this season. And Jackson is probably a .275 / 30 steals guy who needs to make more contact and find the gaps more consistently.
Sizemore recently went through a slump, but, overall, is playing well for Oakland. He needs to iron some things out, but the talent is still there and he of course has a good chance at a solid future. The Tigers gave up on him too soon, when you consider they gave him away for free.
Guillen has been surprisingly good since returning. Should he stay healthy, 2B is taken care of for the year. Next season though? Will Guillen be back? If not, who takes over 2B? Raburn? God help us. Worse yet, there's no one of note in the system ready to step up next season or anytime soon. The position is an organizational black hole.
Serviceable 2Bs are very easy to come by and the 2012 free agent crop is no exception. Between Orlando Cabrera, Mark Ellis, Jerry Hairston, Aaron Hill (if his option is declined), Omar Infante, Kelly Johnson (probably the best player of the bunch), Aaron Miles, Adam Kennedy, Felipe Lopez, Jose Lopez, plus Raburn, Guillen, and players available via trade, they have a ton of alternatives ranging from dirt cheap to fairly expensive.
Nick Punto has been the starting 2B on multiple division winning teams. That should tell you all you need to know about how important the position is. It's great to have a luxury like a Chase Utley there, but most teams just get by with anyone they can find.
Sure, but that doesn't mean a team shouldn't strive for something better than a mere plugger. Especially for a team like Detroit, which has a lot of question marks and holes in their lineup already.
Punto being on previous divisional winners doesn't really tell you much. Just that Minnesota was able to pull it off. Doesn't mean Detroit will. Especially considering the philosophies of those two teams are about as different as you can get.
And I wouldn't call Utley a luxury. Not when there are at least a dozen (40%+) 2Bs in the majors who are very significant parts of their team's lineup. Cano, Pedroia, Zobrist, Weeks (x2), Phillips, Kinsler, Uggla, Utley, Kendrick, Walker, Ackley, Johnson, Espinosa. Good 2Bs have to be more rare than that to be considered "luxuries."
I think you're being generous with your ratings there. Walker is not much of an impact bat, Ackley is off to a good start but is extremely young, as is Espinosa, Zobrist is only a part-time 2B, etc.
Really my point was that while it's nice to have a big bat at 2B, it's obviously not a necessity because plenty of teams have won without one. And this team's weakness isn't hitting. They're in the top 5 in batting average, top 10 in runs scored, OBP and SLG, but they're 24th in ERA, 24th in OBA, 24th in WHIP, 21st in pitching walks, 24th in fielding %, 21st in errors committed, etc.
What they really need is a 2B with a really good glove that will get on base and steal some bases. Unless he can also pitch out of the bullpen without getting torched, whoever they put in that spot is of relatively little importance. The offense they're getting from Raburn and Guillen right now is plenty - 2B is not the Tigers' problem right now, and next year there are plenty of possibilities.
I think you're being generous with your ratings there. Walker is not much of an impact bat, Ackley is off to a good start but is extremely young, as is Espinosa, Zobrist is only a part-time 2B, etc.
I'm not being generous. I said they have significant roles in their lineups, and they do.
Walker bats cleanup and leads all NL 2Bs with 64 RBIs. Not an impact bat? Ok.
Ackley and Espinosa being young doesn't mean anything in terms of their role. They are both being very productive, with one hitting mostly leadoff/2nd and the other mostly 3rd/5th in the order.
Zobrist may play some RF, but he's the Rays starting 2B. He's played the position far more than Sean Rodriguez.
Heck, take 2 off the list if you want. I listed 14. So it's stiill 40%.
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Really my point was that while it's nice to have a big bat at 2B, it's obviously not a necessity because plenty of teams have won without one. And this team's weakness isn't hitting. They're in the top 5 in batting average, top 10 in runs scored, OBP and SLG, but they're 24th in ERA, 24th in OBA, 24th in WHIP, 21st in pitching walks, 24th in fielding %, 21st in errors committed, etc.
Clearly their pitching is weaker than their hitting. But looking ahead, their hitting still has big question marks and overachievers. Peralta won't duplicate this season. Can Boesch put together a second half? Can Avila produce for an entire season? Can Jackson put it all together? The only stable pieces of the lineup I see going into next season are Cabrera and Martinez. When you add in the fact that Guillen and Ordonez are likely gone next year and there isn't a single position player in the minors knocking on the door, they've got some major work to do for next year. Enough work that I don't think you can take a position and say, "oh, it's only 2nd base, who cares?"
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What they really need is a 2B with a really good glove that will get on base and steal some bases. Unless he can also pitch out of the bullpen without getting torched, whoever they put in that spot is of relatively little importance. The offense they're getting from Raburn and Guillen right now is plenty - 2B is not the Tigers' problem right now, and next year there are plenty of possibilities.
I agree it's not a problem right now. But they have no one in the system and it's a bunch of 'meh' on the upcoming market. Would have been nice to give Sizemore a longer look is all. I mean, had he actually netted some kind of return in that trade, ok. But he didn't....
EDIT: In fact, Purcey was designated for assignment today.
