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S. Weber to Edm

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Old
07-14-2011, 09:33 PM
  #101
Fishy Scales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Ummm Pronger got the equivalent of 3 first round picks and Lupul, coming off a 50p season.

Fisher got traded at the deadline and has only cracked 50 points once in his career. Granted he brings a bit more to the table than Lupul (I think?) but he got a first round pick, and conditional 3rd/2nd. Again, let me re-iterate that this was at the deadline.

Essentially, it was 4 first round picks for Pronger, who is quite old now, he's not a young superstar like Weber is, and as such I believe his value to be substantially lower than Weber at the time he was traded compared to Weber's now.

I don't think Hall+RNH is out of line at all.
There is a big difference between "1st round pick" and "1st overall pick".

Also, Chris Pronger was regarded as one of the top three defensemen in the league when the Oilers traded him. And Joffrey Lupul was not in the same ballpark as Taylor Hall or Ryan Nugent-Hopkins value-wise.

And again, even if your evaluation of Shea Weber is more accurate than others', it boils down to Poile's negotiating position.

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07-14-2011, 09:40 PM
  #102
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Why would the Oilers gut their future 1st line for a guy that is likely goin to hit the open market next summer?

Weber may be my favorite Dman in the league but you don't trade two players that have the potential to be 80+ point players for him. They arent there yet but they wet 1st overall for a reason. They are very likely to reach their potential.

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07-14-2011, 09:44 PM
  #103
Fishy Scales
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
Why would the Oilers gut their future 1st line for a guy that is likely goin to hit the open market next summer?
I think any deal would hinge on Weber immediately signing an extension with the team that acquires him (kind of like when the Oilers acquired Pronger, though we all know how that turned out...).

For the record, I still think Weber will end up re-signing in Nashville, but if the reports that he wants a short-term deal are true, I could very well see Poile exploring his options.

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07-14-2011, 09:56 PM
  #104
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Look, I have to open up by stating that I love me some Weber. I would say he is one of the top three defencemen in the entire game.

That said I think some of you are smoking crack if you think it would take Hall, 1st, and another top prospect from Edmonton.

I think the OPs proposal is pretty good considering Edmonton should be drafting in the top 5 next year.

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Old
07-14-2011, 10:01 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fastasaurus View Post
Ya dude. RNH is too small and defensively absent for Nashville. Try Hall,Eberle,and next years 1st.
That sounds closer to fair. I think it would be reasonable if Weber is signed for a reasonable contract that gives up about 5-6 years of free agency.

Something like 6 years, $33 million, $5.5 million cap hit. If not then take out the 1st.

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07-14-2011, 10:37 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
That sounds closer to fair. I think it would be reasonable if Weber is signed for a reasonable contract that gives up about 5-6 years of free agency.

Something like 6 years, $33 million, $5.5 million cap hit. If not then take out the 1st.

5.5 per?? There is no way...that's a gross underpayment. If he signs for that then we would be crazy to ever let him leave. I would be happy with 6.75per. This conversation would never happen in the first place because he would have already signed if that's all he wants.

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07-14-2011, 11:13 PM
  #107
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The Oilers trading Hall and RNH for Weber would be like the Ducks trading Getzlaf and Perry in 2006 for Pronger. Sure they were only 40-50 point players back then but look at then now.

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Old
07-14-2011, 11:42 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
The Oilers trading Hall and RNH for Weber would be like the Ducks trading Getzlaf and Perry in 2006 for Pronger. Sure they were only 40-50 point players back then but look at then now.
Or Kane and Toews

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Old
07-14-2011, 11:57 PM
  #109
Phion Keneuf
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From the Leafs i would say his value would be:

Kessel
Kadri
Grabovski
2012 1st


but i wouldnt offer it.... i wouldnt even offer Kessel alone due to the situation we are in ... (lots of D, only 1 legit 1st liner)

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Old
07-15-2011, 01:07 AM
  #110
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OP, give me whatever dr00gz you were on when you made this thread.

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Old
07-15-2011, 01:23 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Yep. You're right. You're absolutely right.

Just like Bryan Berard, Patrik Stefan, Rick DiPietro, Chris Phillips, and Alexandre Daigle.
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Originally Posted by Gamefreak View Post
So you don't consider Brian Lawton, Gord Kluzak, Doug Wickenheiser, Greg Joly, Michel Plasse, Rick Pagnutti, Andre Veilleux, or Claude Gauthier to be 1st overall busts either?
I love posts like this. Mainly because if you never know if the poster is being sarcastic at the absolute the other poster posted in saying that every 1st overall is a franchise player, or if the poster is really that daft to believe that first overalls these days have a chance to bust.

Look at the years that those players were drafted. And look at the past decade in the draft. Scouting and development has VASTLY improved. Take a look at the top 2 picks from 2000 and on. Players you could pass off as "busts" are DiPietro and Kari Lehtonen. What positions do they play? What position do people say are always unpredictable? there you go. Every other top 2 pick within that gap has had significant impacts.

And just for kicks, when people bring up Chris Phillips as being a draft bust, who exactly would you have taken? JP Dumont? Vast improvement hey?

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Old
07-15-2011, 01:31 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by t0nedeff View Post
Notice how I said playoffs in the very sentence you highlighted? Nashville showed that they can't hang with a lot of teams when it comes to scoring. Why are you so mad that this is completely true?

Do you even realize that the Oilers had a bunch of rookies that made up the majority of their offence? I never said the Oilers had a better offence by the way......., which is exactly why it would be assanine to trade our two 1st overall picks for a dman........we'd be exactly where you guys are.
I seen the playoffs and my stats were talking about the playoffs...
we got goals / game then 8 other teams in the playoffs like i said including Van/ pit/ wash

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Old
07-15-2011, 02:19 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Ummm Pronger got the equivalent of 3 first round picks and Lupul, coming off a 50p season.

Fisher got traded at the deadline and has only cracked 50 points once in his career. Granted he brings a bit more to the table than Lupul (I think?) but he got a first round pick, and conditional 3rd/2nd. Again, let me re-iterate that this was at the deadline.

Essentially, it was 4 first round picks for Pronger, who is quite old now, he's not a young superstar like Weber is, and as such I believe his value to be substantially lower than Weber at the time he was traded compared to Weber's now.

I don't think Hall+RNH is out of line at all.
Again, let me re-iterate that these guys are FIRST OVERALL picks. There's a pretty big difference between two first overalls and something, as compared to what you'd call "essentially" 4 first round picks.

Also, Chris Pronger being old now has nothing to do with the fact that he was traded for nothing close to a two first overall package when he was in his prime, at 30 years old, and again coming off a monstrous Conne Smyth worthy season at 31. Your points hold no water and asking for Hopkins AND Hall is completely out of line.

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Old
07-15-2011, 03:57 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Try Hall and Hopkins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webersmashpuck View Post
The Weber proposals are getting worse and worse.

Hall, RNH and 1st is more like it and even then I bet Poile is gunshy because there is really nothing proven in the package (I know Hall had 40 pts and looks great) and the Preds are not rebuilding.
Man I really need to watch more Preds games next year as he must be the modern day Bobby Orr to garner these kinds of trade returns.

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Old
07-15-2011, 04:04 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Man I really need to watch more Preds games next year as he must be the modern day Bobby Orr to garner these kinds of trade returns.
I'm pretty sure you saw him shoot it through the net in Vancouver for Team Canada. That kind of history is worth a 1st by itself. His beard is worth Hall atleast.

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Old
07-15-2011, 04:15 AM
  #116
Wheatking
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Man I really need to watch more Preds games next year as he must be the modern day Bobby Orr to garner these kinds of trade returns.
No kidding. Weber is great but he's being extremely overrated. He isn't Orr, Lidstrom or Pronger. He hasn't won a Norris yet...or a Hart. He hasnt even really proven that he can carry a team all on his own(thats not even a negative). I'm not going to say Suter is responsible for all of Weber's success but in threads about Suter, Preds fans will tell you that Weber isn't the same player when he's not in the line up.

There are two players that you trade two 1st overall picks for and Weber isn't one of them.

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Old
07-15-2011, 04:17 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
Not sure if serious. Now that you listed the 5 busts should I list the franchise players?

Hall
Tavares
Stamkos
Kane
Crosby
Ovechkin
Nah
Kovulchuk
Lecavlier
Thornton

Thats ignoring other high picks like Duchene, Doughty or Malkin. So nice try but top 2 picks are worth alot, I know flames trade the pick every year but that doesnt make them useless
Dont belong yet. Will they get there, maybe but they aint there yet

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Old
07-15-2011, 06:38 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by lostinspace View Post
To Nash
Hall
Whitney
1st round pick

To Oilers
Weber
I still think this is the most likely type of return. Nashville will demand and get from someone a young dynamic high upside player, probably another solid NHLer, and a 1st round pick.

Whether Edmonton want's to do this is up to them. But no one is going to get Weber for spare parts. Like all these trades, if the parts don't hurt when you give them up, then we don't want them.

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07-15-2011, 06:46 AM
  #119
Fishy Scales
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I still think this is the most likely type of return. Nashville will demand and get from someone a young dynamic high upside player, probably another solid NHLer, and a 1st round pick.

Whether Edmonton want's to do this is up to them. But no one is going to get Weber for spare parts. Like all these trades, if the parts don't hurt when you give them up, then we don't want them.
To be honest I strongly doubt the Oilers even do Taylor Hall straight up for Weber. There's just no way they'd even have to consider parting with one of their 1st overall picks.

Again, in the end I believe Weber will remain a Predator, but if he is traded I think a lot of posters in this thread are in for a rude awakening. And I say this as a big Shea Weber fan.

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Old
07-15-2011, 06:50 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ChokeOnOil View Post
Again, let me re-iterate that these guys are FIRST OVERALL picks. There's a pretty big difference between two first overalls and something, as compared to what you'd call "essentially" 4 first round picks.

Also, Chris Pronger being old now has nothing to do with the fact that he was traded for nothing close to a two first overall package when he was in his prime, at 30 years old, and again coming off a monstrous Conne Smyth worthy season at 31. Your points hold no water and asking for Hopkins AND Hall is completely out of line.
Ummm...what? The time Pronger was traded to Philly (which is the time in question) where he received the equivalent of 4 first round picks he was 34 years old.

Almost all defenseman start to depreciate at a faster rate around that 36ish year age, and as such he only had 2-4 good years left (you could already see his abilities falter a little bit last year IMO).

So basically what happens is:

Hall, RNH = 6 First round Picks (approximate value)

Pronger = 4 First round picks at age 34

Weber = 5-6 round picks at age 25 (if you disagree with this, just look at all of the people who were willing to offer Weber the 4+ compensation if he had been eligible for offer sheets, and that would have resulted in a much higher cap hit than they could have had had they signed him otherwise)

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07-15-2011, 06:53 AM
  #121
Fishy Scales
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Ummm...what? The time Pronger was traded to Philly (which is the time in question) where he received the equivalent of 4 first round picks he was 34 years old.

Almost all defenseman start to depreciate at a faster rate around that 36ish year age, and as such he only had 2-4 good years left (you could already see his abilities falter a little bit last year IMO).

So basically what happens is:

Hall, RNH = 6 First round Picks (approximate value)

Pronger = 4 First round picks at age 34

Weber = 5-6 round picks at age 25 (if you disagree with this, just look at all of the people who were willing to offer Weber the 4+ compensation if he had been eligible for offer sheets, and that would have resulted in a much higher cap hit than they could have had had they signed him otherwise)
ChokeOnOil is definitely talking about when Pronger was traded from Edmonton to Anaheim. I think he was 32 years old and (along with Lidström and Niedermayer) was basically considered the top defenseman in the game after the Oilers '06 run.

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07-15-2011, 06:54 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Fishy Scales View Post
To be honest I strongly doubt the Oilers even do Taylor Hall straight up for Weber. There's just no way they'd even have to consider parting with one of their 1st overall picks.

Again, in the end I believe Weber will remain a Predator, but if he is traded I think a lot of posters in this thread are in for a rude awakening. And I say this as a big Shea Weber fan.
You're entitled to your opinion. But my opinion is that you couldn't be more off-base. Richards got B.Schenn (an HFboards untouchable), Simmonds (an HFboards untouchable unless for borderline insane overpayment - seriously do a search, it's absurd what Kings fans wanted), and a 2nd round pick.

Carter was traded for Voracek (another HFboards untouchable), and Couturier.

Now consider the fact that Weber makes Mike Richards and Carter look like an absolute joke and evaluate what you think Weber would get.

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07-15-2011, 07:05 AM
  #123
Fishy Scales
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
You're entitled to your opinion. But my opinion is that you couldn't be more off-base. Richards got B.Schenn (an HFboards untouchable), Simmonds (an HFboards untouchable unless for borderline insane overpayment - seriously do a search, it's absurd what Kings fans wanted), and a 2nd round pick.

Carter was traded for Voracek (another HFboards untouchable), and Couturier.

Now consider the fact that Weber makes Mike Richards and Carter look like an absolute joke and evaluate what you think Weber would get.
Shea Weber is going into arbitration in a few weeks. He can elect a 2-year deal which would conveniently take him to UFA status, at which point the Predators may very likely lose him for nothing (and the arbiter may give him a very high salary in the meantime).

So if Poile realizes that Weber believes his chances at winning the cup are higher elsewhere (not entirely impossible given Nashville's budget situation), he may feel forced to make trade. In this case, as soon as he starts fielding calls from other GM's he's going to be lowballed. I guarantee it, because everyone single GM out there knows WHY Weber is suddenly on the market.

Rave as much as you please about Schenn, he's great, but he is no Taylor Hall and he is no Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (I'm gonna let it slide that you actually seem to equate Wayne freakin' Simmonds' trade value to these players too).

And last but not least, comments such as "Weber makes Mike Richards and Carter look like an absolute joke" don't sound very levelheaded and they don't reflect well on your overall argument. Weber is the better player, but his contract situation is vastly different and your hyperbole in that comparison kind of explains your Hall+RNH+1st suggestions. They're equally as ridiculous.

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07-15-2011, 07:20 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Fishy Scales View Post
Shea Weber is going into arbitration in a few weeks. He can elect a 2-year deal which would conveniently take him to UFA status, at which point the Predators may very likely lose him for nothing (and the arbiter may give him a very high salary in the meantime).

So if Poile realizes that Weber believes his chances at winning the cup are higher elsewhere (not entirely impossible given Nashville's budget situation), he may feel forced to make trade. In this case, as soon as he starts fielding calls from other GM's he's going to be lowballed. I guarantee it, because everyone single GM out there knows WHY Weber is suddenly on the market.

Rave as much as you please about Schenn, he's great, but he is no Taylor Hall and he is no Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (I'm gonna let it slide that you actually seem to equate Wayne freakin' Simmonds' trade value to these players too).

And last but not least, comments such as "Weber makes Mike Richards and Carter look like an absolute joke" don't sound very levelheaded and they don't reflect well on your overall argument. Weber is the better player, but his contract situation is vastly different and your hyperbole in that comparison kind of explains your Hall+RNH+1st suggestions. They're equally as ridiculous.
Come on man, we are having a discussion and then you start putting words in my mouth, that's not fair at all. Allow me to clarify:

1) I didn't say Schenn is/will be better than RNH or Hall
2) I did not equate Simmonds to RNH or Hall
3) I did not say RNH, Hall, and 1st. I said RNH, Hall, and something.

As for MY post, what I'm saying is Carter and Richards got pretty absurdly good players back for them because they are stars. Weber DOES in fact make Carter and Richards look like jokes because he is in a higher tier of players than these 2 and should be compensated as such.

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07-15-2011, 07:30 AM
  #125
RaiderDoug
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Originally Posted by Fishy Scales View Post
Shea Weber is going into arbitration in a few weeks. He can elect a 2-year deal which would conveniently take him to UFA status, at which point the Predators may very likely lose him for nothing (and the arbiter may give him a very high salary in the meantime).

So if Poile realizes that Weber believes his chances at winning the cup are higher elsewhere (not entirely impossible given Nashville's budget situation), he may feel forced to make trade. In this case, as soon as he starts fielding calls from other GM's he's going to be lowballed. I guarantee it, because everyone single GM out there knows WHY Weber is suddenly on the market.

Rave as much as you please about Schenn, he's great, but he is no Taylor Hall and he is no Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (I'm gonna let it slide that you actually seem to equate Wayne freakin' Simmonds' trade value to these players too).

And last but not least, comments such as "Weber makes Mike Richards and Carter look like an absolute joke" don't sound very levelheaded and they don't reflect well on your overall argument. Weber is the better player, but his contract situation is vastly different and your hyperbole in that comparison kind of explains your Hall+RNH+1st suggestions. They're equally as ridiculous.
No such thing as a "lowball" during a bidding war.

25 teams will be lining up to make an offer for Weber. Are all 25 of them going to offer a 3rd line grinder and a 3rd?

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