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Which HOF members do you think should not be there?

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Old
07-14-2011, 07:59 PM
  #26
GreatGonzo
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Originally Posted by TomFr96 View Post
Brett Hull was probably one of the Top 5 snipers in history (Bossy, Lemieux, Bure, Hull, Hull). It's impossible to exclude him.
Just asking if he was maybe borderline HOFer. I knew he was a elite sniper for his time, but i couldnt help but notice that he was one dimension.

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07-14-2011, 08:15 PM
  #27
Canadiens1958
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Brett Hull

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Originally Posted by SharkLoc91 View Post
Just asking if he was maybe borderline HOFer. I knew he was a elite sniper for his time, but i couldnt help but notice that he was one dimension.
Brett Hull is one of the first "short shift" players in the HHOF. His role was very simple. Step on the ice, find open ice in the offensive zone and get that clean scoring chance within 30-40 secs and someone will get him the puck.

As team defenses adapted he added a few other elements to his game that allowed him to contribute to a few SX winning teams. Definite HHOF.

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07-14-2011, 10:17 PM
  #29
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by SharkLoc91 View Post
What about Brett Hull? Compiler? One dimensional

Just asking if he was maybe borderline HOFer. I knew he was a elite sniper for his time, but i couldnt help but notice that he was one dimension.
No, he isn't borderline. He led the NHL in goals three times and while that ties Bure the truth is Bure never won a Hart and was not a first team all-star three times at his position. Then you dig deeper and one of the most underrated playoff performers of all-time is Hull. 103 goals doesn't lie. Only Gretzky has scored more in the postseason. Unbelievable. This predates his 1999 and 2002 championships as well. He was very good even in St. Louis in the playoffs, scoring a ton of goals. He is one of those forgotten clutch performers that we omit when making these lists.

Let's not forget either, his play in the 1996 World Cup. He was a thorn to the side of Canada as much as I hate to admit that. If not for Richter's heroics Hull is your MVP of that tournament. I know people were comparing Stamkos to Hull earlier in the year but he has a long ways to go in order to make that claim. The only thing they have in common is that classic one-timer on the wrong side on the powerplay. Hull perfected it though, Stamkos not quite yet

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07-14-2011, 11:20 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Oliver Seibert played hockey in the Berlin(Kitchener) area and west to the Sault Ste Marie area. One of the top players from his era.
Wow. I'd like to see a defence of that claim. He wasn't even the best player on his team (Goldie Cochrane was), and he played in a low-quality league in the WOHL. When the Berlin team was banned, teammates Cochrane and Joe Stephens caught on in the IHL; Seibert played only one game there.

Pray tell, what evidence is there that Seibert was one of the best players from his era?

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07-14-2011, 11:26 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Scotty Davidson - inducted largely because he died in World War I?

George Richardson - inducted largely because he died in World War I?

Frank Rankin - I have no idea what he did to be inducted.

Oliver Seibert - I have no idea what he did to be inducted

Steamer Maxwell - no idea why he was inducted. And I read an article from the 60s where he had no idea why he was inducted.

Jack Ruttan - no idea why he was inducted

I'm specifically not including Hobey Baker, who is inducted mostly for historical significance (though arguably should be in as a builder, rather than player).
Davidson and Richardson are in due to their deaths in the war. As is Hobey Baker, really. They all had good careers, or rather good starts to careers, but they were so very short they cannot be considered for the Hall of Fame based on the merit of their play.

Frank Rankin coached the 1924 Canadian Olympic gold-medal team. He had quite a good playing career in the OHA, but again it was quite short and by itself not enough for consideration.

Steamer Maxwell coached the 1920 Canadian Olympic gold-medal team. He had a short and thoroughly unremarkable senior career in Manitoba.

No idea on Seibert. C1958 is way off-base in calling him one of the best players of his era.

Ruttan is another mystery. He also had a short and very unremarkable career playing senior hockey in Manitoba.

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07-14-2011, 11:57 PM
  #32
Canadiens1958
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Top

Top is not necessarily a synonym for best.

Oliver Seibert was one of the top or most recognizable players of his era. He is one of the first to use the wrist shot, innovation, which the HHOF always considers. An excellent skater who managed to draw attention to himself and the sport by racing against a horse.

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07-15-2011, 12:01 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Top is not necessarily a synonym for best.

Oliver Seibert was one of the top or most recognizable players of his era. He is one of the first to use the wrist shot, innovation, which the HHOF always considers. An excellent skater who managed to draw attention to himself and the sport by racing against a horse.
no, that was his dad:

Quote:
His brothers--Edward, Nelson, Clarence, Albert and Shannon-- played alongside Oliver and his father Frank "Butch" Seibert. His father was an ice skater of some renown and, as legend has it, once skated against a trotter. The horse evidently had a one-mile record of two minutes and thirteen seconds but Frank Seibert, wearing only his old rocker skates, won a match race covering a distance of one mile over a course laid out on the ice of the Grand River

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07-15-2011, 12:30 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No, he isn't borderline. He led the NHL in goals three times and while that ties Bure the truth is Bure never won a Hart and was not a first team all-star three times at his position. Then you dig deeper and one of the most underrated playoff performers of all-time is Hull. 103 goals doesn't lie. Only Gretzky has scored more in the postseason. Unbelievable. This predates his 1999 and 2002 championships as well. He was very good even in St. Louis in the playoffs, scoring a ton of goals. He is one of those forgotten clutch performers that we omit when making these lists.

Let's not forget either, his play in the 1996 World Cup. He was a thorn to the side of Canada as much as I hate to admit that. If not for Richter's heroics Hull is your MVP of that tournament. I know people were comparing Stamkos to Hull earlier in the year but he has a long ways to go in order to make that claim. The only thing they have in common is that classic one-timer on the wrong side on the powerplay. Hull perfected it though, Stamkos not quite yet
I see. Thank you

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07-15-2011, 08:51 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Top is not necessarily a synonym for best.
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
He is one of the first to use the wrist shot, innovation, which the HHOF always considers.
Source? I'm sure he's one of the two dozen or so players about whom it is claimed he was the first to use some type of shot.

If you're relying on this page, for instance, then you have to be concerned about the inaccuracies contained thereon: he did not play for Guelph in the OPHL, and London never even had a team in the OPHL.

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Old
07-15-2011, 08:53 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
no, that was his dad:
Also, it says "as legend has it". Not exactly airtight as far as evidence goes.

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07-15-2011, 09:22 AM
  #37
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Dick Duff and Leo Boivin

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07-15-2011, 09:23 AM
  #38
Canadiens1958
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1962 Context

Oliver Seibert is referenced in the context of 1962, as are others, and what was known at that time or the years previous. That other information has surfaced since is to be expected but the information was never intentionally hidden to give anyone an advantage in the HHOF enshrinement process.

The issues some may have with the HHOF biographies published on their site are best addressed with the HHOF directly since they are the only ones capable of making the necessary changes.

The claim that others may have used the wrist shot is not denied by the HHOF in the biography of Oliver Seibert. If other contemporaries of Oliver Seibert used the wrist shot then historical accuracy would benefit from a detailed listing of such players.

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07-15-2011, 09:41 AM
  #39
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neely is dubious

he's not in if he's anything but canadian

plus his assist totals makes pavel bure look like a great playmaker

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07-15-2011, 10:02 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkLoc91 View Post
What about Brett Hull? Compiler? One dimensional?
His 844 career NHL goals and 0.57 GPG spanning 1,471 contest, both of which rank 3rd all-time, make Hull's "one dimension" pretty ****ing amazing.

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07-15-2011, 10:02 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Oliver Seibert is referenced in the context of 1962, as are others, and what was known at that time or the years previous. That other information has surfaced since is to be expected but the information was never intentionally hidden to give anyone an advantage in the HHOF enshrinement process.

The issues some may have with the HHOF biographies published on their site are best addressed with the HHOF directly since they are the only ones capable of making the necessary changes.

The claim that others may have used the wrist shot is not denied by the HHOF in the biography of Oliver Seibert. If other contemporaries of Oliver Seibert used the wrist shot then historical accuracy would benefit from a detailed listing of such players.
You make it sound like you're still justifying the induction but I think you are really making excuses for it.

I don't think there was any insidious intent involved in getting some lesser players into the hall... but that's what they are - lesser players! It's ok to admit that the HHOF committee, based on limited info, made some weak inductions of players who shouldn't be there... and that is what this thread is about.

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07-15-2011, 10:04 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
His 844 career NHL goals and 0.57 GPG spanning 1,471 contest, both of which rank 3rd all-time, make Hull's "one dimension" pretty ****ing amazing.
1. Mike Bossy* 0.762
2. Cy Denneny* 0.756
3. Mario Lemieux* 0.754
4. Babe Dye* 0.742
5. Alex Ovechkin 0.634
6. Pavel Bure 0.623
7. Wayne Gretzky* 0.601
8. Brett Hull* 0.584
9. Bobby Hull* 0.574
10. Tim Kerr 0.565

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07-15-2011, 10:21 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I used to take a pretty hard line on some of the players in there like Neely, Duff, Gillies, Dino..

Now I just believe that the criteria we all think should be used is not the criteria that the committee uses..
I tend to agree. There seems to be a popular school of thought that the Hall should be more exclusive, more elite than it is, and that's simply not the way the HHOF works.

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07-15-2011, 10:46 AM
  #44
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This Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You make it sound like you're still justifying the induction but I think you are really making excuses for it.

I don't think there was any insidious intent involved in getting some lesser players into the hall... but that's what they are - lesser players! It's ok to admit that the HHOF committee, based on limited info, made some weak inductions of players who shouldn't be there... and that is what this thread is about.
This thread is about members yet inevitably such threads degenerate into a bash fest of certain players.builders, officials are not subject to the same scrutiny.

The HHOF operates on the premise that that members merit induction for their contribution(s) to hockey.It does not differentiate in terms of skill, level of contribution, importance or whatever criteria others wish to impose.

Insidious intent. Well there certainly was insidious intent from Conn Smythe in keeping Busher Jackson out for way too long. Given this situation it is only reasonable to comment in the opposite sense assuring readers that this was not the case for other inductions.

As for alleged weak inductions. Such comments are coming from the perspective of 2011 or the immediate past 3 - 5 years. If this perspective could be linked to articles from the induction year making the same point then the allegations would be strengthened but to date I have not seen such documentation and doubt that I will.

Fact remains that the past will never change. There are no mulligans in life. All we can control or change is the future. To use the Oliver Seibert example. Instead of beating on a dead horse which is easy, people should build a case for his contemporaries that were better players. Obviously if someone thinks Oliver Seibert was a lesser player then they should have a list of superior contemporaries available. Build a case for such players and submit it to the HHOF per the rules that allow for such submissions.

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07-15-2011, 04:40 PM
  #45
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Bob Pulford was perhaps the only forward in the league strong and fast enough to physically contain Gordie Howe. I believe he won a coach's poll for the best penalty killer of the era. Toronto's ability to contain Howe and their penalty killing were huge parts of their 4 Cup dynasty.

George Armstrong was the leading playoff scoring of that same Toronto dynasty and its captain.

I have no issues with their inductions.



Agree mostly. Duff is the worst induction ever. Laprade... he was the best player on a horrible Rangers team, and there seems to be a desire to induct the best player of every team from the 6 team era. Supposedly he was an excellent defensively player. Definitely a quesionable induction, but shouldn't be lumped with Duff IMO. Duff was basically a very good role player, but still a role player.



Agree 100%.



Why the Kariya comparable? Olmstead was the most physically feared forward in the league when he played. Questionable induction, perhaps, but I don't think it's that bad.



Howell really isn't that bad an induction.



I would take Rob Blake over him too, but they will both be in the Hall sooner, rather than later. Murphy was a better player than many forwards in the Hall. He only looks weak because standards for defensemen are so much higher for some reason.
Just curious is Armstrong more deserving then Nieuwendyk?

I really can't see any argument for that.

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07-15-2011, 05:16 PM
  #46
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Just curious is Armstrong more deserving then Nieuwendyk?

I really can't see any argument for that.
hard to argue against the captain of a dynasty, in my opinion.

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07-15-2011, 05:58 PM
  #47
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Just curious is Armstrong more deserving then Nieuwendyk?

I really can't see any argument for that.
He was the leading playoff scorer of a dynasty. And yes, captain as vadim says. He was a great defensive player, but not as great as some who aren't in the Hall. But put it all together, and it's a pretty easy choice to induct him IMO.

Nieuwendyk really only had one outstanding playoff performance. They might be comparable if the Stars become a quasi-dynasty like the Wings, with Joe their overall leading playoff scorer (or quite close to leading).

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Old
07-15-2011, 06:08 PM
  #48
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What exactly was Ciccarelli actually found guilty of that would make one think of him as a bad person, rather than just a hot head?

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07-15-2011, 06:16 PM
  #49
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What exactly was Ciccarelli actually found guilty of that would make one think of him as a bad person, rather than just a hot head?
He had criminal charges placed against him due to actions in a game.

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07-15-2011, 06:20 PM
  #50
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He had criminal charges placed against him due to actions in a game.
Yes, but if he had done the same act in New Jersey or Chicago against a Devils or Hawks player he almost certainly wouldn't have. He made the mistake of attacking a Canadian team player in Canada.

I've seen the incident, hotheadedness nothing else. And 20-25 years earlier that would not have been considered a very dramatic incident either. A lot of O6 HOFers were involved in similar or worse.

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