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Devils ownership discussion thread (mod note: post #17)

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03-07-2017, 10:00 AM
  #1
Camille the Eel
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Devils ownership discussion thread (mod note: post #17)

The danger with the tank to build is that you continue to tank and never build. Consider the Philadelphia 76ers of the NBA. Perpetual tank, never build. (Especially consider them because Harris and Blitzer also own that club).


Last edited by NJDevs26: 03-07-2017 at 03:02 PM.
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03-07-2017, 12:44 PM
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NJRockinRoller
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Originally Posted by camille the eel View Post
the danger with the tank to build is that you continue to tank and never build. Consider the philadelphia 76ers of the nba. Perpetual tank, never build. (especially consider them because harris and blitzer also own that club).
do not speak of this! The devils owners want to win! Their feelings about the devils are completely different to their feelings about the 76ers, where they are clearly indifferent about winning! This is not relevant! Please forget this exchange and move on with your day.

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03-07-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Camille the Eel View Post
The danger with the tank to build is that you continue to tank and never build. Consider the Philadelphia 76ers of the NBA. Perpetual tank, never build. (Especially consider them because Harris and Blitzer also own that club).
The sixers and devils haven't made the playoffs for the same amount of seasons. What makes the other a perpetual build.

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03-07-2017, 01:05 PM
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say what you want about them, but the Sixers are also about to have a pretty stacked team. Simmons, Embiid, and 2 top 5 picks lol

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03-07-2017, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
say what you want about them, but the Sixers are also about to have a pretty stacked team. Simmons, Embiid, and 2 top 5 picks lol
In a stacked draft too

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03-07-2017, 01:17 PM
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say what you want about them, but the Sixers are also about to have a pretty stacked team. Simmons, Embiid, and 2 top 5 picks lol
This thing has been in need of a blowup for 2+ years. Now that the reality has hit everyone in the face like a 2x4 it's ok to talk about which is a small win in this season of losing.

The Sixers plan on the surface is not the issue. It's the length of the plan, the several "resets" they have taken during it, the fact that the league comissioner needed to actually step in and mandate action at one point, the pattern they have established of using draft picks for players who are injured or international - hence delaying even further the "process" (and eventual need to pay said players), the pattern of using draft picks to take prmising players and then trading them for more picks (moving backwards) just prior to having to pay them (Michael Carter-Williams, Nerlens Noel), the lack of a significant Free Agent at any point in this "process to accelerate the team, etc.

Thats what has rankled some during this process. But not me, I'm cool with it. Please don't erase this.


Last edited by NJDevs26: 03-07-2017 at 02:54 PM. Reason: tmi
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03-07-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by R8NJ View Post
The sixers and devils haven't made the playoffs for the same amount of seasons. What makes the other a perpetual build.
Three of our five seasons were futile attempts to compete with aging veterans and a coach that couldn't get it done. We've only been actively trying to redefine the core for two years.

I don't watch basketball so I can't tell you what's going on with the 76ers, but our rebuild has really only been two seasons.

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03-07-2017, 01:29 PM
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The basketball posts are all going to get erased again, but the enormously clear difference between the NBA and NHL should get them canned. The NBA is a superstar league. There is a max salary limit and the best players in the NBA are worth way more than the max salary. The NHL is different - there is a max salary in the NHL, but literally one player has ever signed a contract with a maximum salary. Top players are still worth more than their contracts, but it's not to the huge extent that someone like Lebron James is worth more than his contract. You not only need several excellent players to win, but you also need several other good players. In addition, in the NBA, teams will trade 1st round picks several years out because there just isn't a whole lot of things to trade with one another - NHL teams just do not do that anymore. The two leagues should not be compared.

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03-07-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Three of our five seasons were futile attempts to compete with aging veterans and a coach that couldn't get it done. We've only been actively trying to redefine the core for two years.

I don't watch basketball so I can't tell you what's going on with the 76ers, but our rebuild has really only been two seasons.
I know, its just that the sixers rebuild started in 2013 but people act like they've been building for a decade

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03-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by NJRockinRoller View Post
Now that the reality has hit everyone in the face like a 2x4 it's ok to talk about which is a small win in this season of losing.

The Sixers plan on the surface is not the issue. It's the length of the plan, the several "resets" they have taken during it, the fact that the league comissioner needed to actually step in and mandate action at one point, the pattern they have established of using draft picks for players who are injured or international - hence delaying even further the "process" (and eventual need to pay said players), the pattern of using draft picks to take prmising players and then trading them for more picks (moving backwards) just prior to having to pay them (Michael Carter-Williams, Nerlens Noel), the lack of a significant Free Agent at any point in this "process to accelerate the team, etc.

Thats what has rankled some during this process. But not me, I'm cool with it. Please don't erase this.
Michael carter Williams is not good that was a smart decision. Sixers have other max contracts coming up to use one on your backup center would not be wise.

It's not like the devils are trading rfas right before they get a big deal. Once they do your point may be legitimized


Last edited by NJDevs26: 03-07-2017 at 02:55 PM. Reason: qdp
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03-07-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by R8NJ View Post
Michael carter Williams is not good that was a smart decision. Sixers have other max contracts coming up to use one on your backup center would not be wise.

It's not like the devils are trading rfas right before they get a big deal. Once they do your point may be legitimized
If you feel the Sixers rebuild has been moving at a normal - or even an appropriate - pace - you would be alone in your opinion in the sports world. You have plenty of company on this board, but this is the same board, again, that just began allowing itself to start to consider that it may be in the Devils best interest to draft high and get players rather than win meaningless games with a bad team every March.

End of the day, its all conjecture. Harris and Blitzer will get to show very soon if they mean business. Case #1 - Kevin Shattenkirk.

With as many NHL insiders there are in the media and on twitter, we will know how involved and to what extent the Devils were in this young, local, #1 Defenseman in late June. After that, we'll know.

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03-07-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NJRockinRoller View Post
If you feel the Sixers rebuild has been moving at a normal - or even an appropriate - pace - you would be alone in your opinion in the sports world. You have plenty of company on this board, but this is the same board, again, that just began allowing itself to start to consider that it may be in the Devils best interest to draft high and get players rather than win meaningless games with a bad team every March.

End of the day, its all conjecture. Harris and Blitzer will get to show very soon if they mean business. Case #1 - Kevin Shattenkirk.

With as many NHL insiders there are in the media and on twitter, we will know how involved and to what extent the Devils were in this young, local, #1 Defenseman in late June. After that, we'll know.

The problem with this is unless someone who has some sort of authority comes out and said NJ offered X and it was turned down, nobody is going to know for sure what was done.

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03-07-2017, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NJRockinRoller View Post
If you feel the Sixers rebuild has been moving at a normal - or even an appropriate - pace - you would be alone in your opinion in the sports world. You have plenty of company on this board, but this is the same board, again, that just began allowing itself to start to consider that it may be in the Devils best interest to draft high and get players rather than win meaningless games with a bad team every March.

End of the day, its all conjecture. Harris and Blitzer will get to show very soon if they mean business. Case #1 - Kevin Shattenkirk.

With as many NHL insiders there are in the media and on twitter, we will know how involved and to what extent the Devils were in this young, local, #1 Defenseman in late June. After that, we'll know.
It is beyond bizarre that you hold the opinion that tanking is good and that the 76ers are doing it wrong. I have no idea how someone could hold two such enormously contradictory ideas in their head.

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03-07-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
It is beyond bizarre that you hold the opinion that tanking is good and that the 76ers are doing it wrong. I have no idea how someone could hold two such enormously contradictory ideas in their head.
I think he believes that the tank part is fine, but that taking forever and a day to rebuild because the owner(s) don't want to make any burdensome financial investment is not fine. I have a lot of the same beliefs.

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03-07-2017, 02:19 PM
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If I could go the rest of my life without hearing about the 76ers I'd be a pretty happy boy.

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03-07-2017, 02:46 PM
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If I could go the rest of my life without hearing about the 76ers I'd be a pretty happy boy.
"Fo Fo Fo" is a distant memory in Philly these days.

And yes, Sixers talk should go in the NBA thread.


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03-07-2017, 02:47 PM
  #17
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Devils ownership discussion thread

Since you guys just cannot keep Sixer talk out of the Devils thread, it appears a seperate thread to discuss the owners themselves would probably help get the spam out of the team thread. If you guys want to discuss ownership's plans for the team going forward and do endless comparisons to the Sixers do it here. Yes the ownership does have to do with the team but the Sixers do not, that's why the Sixer posts are OT in the team thread.


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03-07-2017, 02:48 PM
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I apologize in advance but with how many new threads were created in the past like month, I think this is fitting.

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03-07-2017, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camille the Eel View Post
The danger with the tank to build is that you continue to tank and never build. Consider the Philadelphia 76ers of the NBA. Perpetual tank, never build. (Especially consider them because Harris and Blitzer also own that club).
Why do people constantly make comments like this without also factoring in the many more teams that never had top picks and were stuck in mediocrity for decades?

Onto the thread topic: I don't think you can draw a conclusion regarding their intentions yet. I will say if we don't make a hard run at Shattenkirk (not necessarily sign, but try), I'd start to think they favor the tank.

If they are hoping to tank, then the Hall trade was moronic. Because that guy is gonna be happy playing a decade of meaningless hockey.....right...

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03-07-2017, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
It is beyond bizarre that you hold the opinion that tanking is good and that the 76ers are doing it wrong. I have no idea how someone could hold two such enormously contradictory ideas in their head.
Idk where he's going with his argument, but where I would go is:

The 76ers had a bit of bad luck and a lot of asset mismanagement. You can't roll out 3 centers every night. And if you still decide to draft those 2 centers in addition to your current roster players, good luck getting fair value when you inevitably have to move 1 if not two of them.

Ironically it would kinda be like a team (say, the Oilers) drafting a bunch of forwards and no D, eventually having to sell a forward for D help at less than fair market value. Unfortunately the 76ers didn't luck into the opportunity to draft a Lebron (McDavid), so they are still screwed.

Anyway, I hate basketball, so that's all I'll say on the matter.

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03-07-2017, 03:22 PM
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If they are hoping to tank, then the Hall trade was moronic. Because that guy is gonna be happy playing a decade of meaningless hockey.....right...
Well the nuclear option is to trade him in summer 2019 and recoup some of the value if things don't get better by then. Hopefully it doesn't get to that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryForVezina View Post
The 76ers had a bit of bad luck and a lot of asset mismanagement. You can't roll out 3 centers every night. And if you still decide to draft those 2 centers in addition to your current roster players, good luck getting fair value when you inevitably have to move 1 if not two of them.

Ironically it would kinda be like a team (say, the Oilers) drafting a bunch of forwards and no D, eventually having to sell a forward for D help at less than fair market value. Unfortunately the 76ers didn't luck into the opportunity to draft a Lebron (McDavid), so they are still screwed.
That's...actually a spot on comparison Other than the fact the Oilers forwards at least didn't get hurt and have to redshirt for years at a time.

And the Sixer example shows why it's going to be much harder to tank in the NHL going forward. Until recently the NHL had a more permissive lottery, now they're fully NBA style. Which means there's as much luck involved as anything else. It's still near impossible to compare the NHL to the NBA though even with the lotteries being similar now - different salary caps, different team building dynamics.

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03-07-2017, 03:28 PM
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This is a non-issue to me; building a winner in the NBA requires a dramatically different approach in comparison to the NHL.

I've seen nothing but positives from our new ownership so far; if they weren't serious about winning I highly doubt they would have replaced Lou as GM given the length of his tenure with the franchise.

Our old management was leading us down a path of perpetual mediocrity because of their steadfast adherence to archaic principles that had no place in today's NHL; our new ownership quickly identified this and made the necessary cutthroat decision in an attempt to rectify it.

Also, unlike our old ownership they actually have the necessary money to support an NHL franchise and the current indication is that they are willing to spend to the cap as soon as it makes sense to do so.

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03-07-2017, 03:30 PM
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It is beyond bizarre that you hold the opinion that tanking is good and that the 76ers are doing it wrong. I have no idea how someone could hold two such enormously contradictory ideas in their head.
Don't see why this is strange. Not only is tanking good, its beyond the point of being mandatory for this team as a method of starting to put a dent in their woeful talent deficit. Been saying it for years.

However, I question whether this ownership sees the IDEA of tanking as a convinient excuse to not spend money - hence the facts I listed, the most relevant being that the NBA actually had to intervene in the 76ers situation. They have yet to spend money - to my knowledge - on an external or internal free agent. They continue to compile draft picks, and use many on down the road international players, injured players that further set back the "target date" that any expectations could be met.

Its a suspicion I have. I cant prove it. I think we'll see soon. A calculated short term tank - WHEN YOU ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE ANYWAY - is a smart way to capitalize on asset acquistion opportunities. Being bad for multiple years and picking 6 and 11 instead of say 3 and 5 or 1 and 3 or something like that makes a HUGE difference. Obviously. I'm not saying you take a playoff team and turn it bad to get a high draft pick. What ive been saying for years is the Devils are not a playoff team, and many here did not agree (at the time).

I hope I'm wrong about ownership. But if you take a good idea, a "smart" idea like tanking, and exploit it to avoid having to invest in your team, that's not a good thing.

A proper tank, I am all for - although it is clearly 2 years too late as McDavid and Matthews are gone, as well as all their friends in the last 2 stacked classes, in years where the Devils were just as bad as any of the teams picking in those Top 3's and Top 5's.

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03-07-2017, 03:30 PM
  #24
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When did the 76ers ever acquire a player like Taylor Hall? When did they sign a player like Schneider to a long term extension?

Our owners are intelligent. They hired a GM who won't spend recklessly in years where we won't improve our bottom line (we're still missing the playoffs this year and last even if we add guys like Goligoski and Yandle). Smart business.

I suspect they'll open up the checkbook as our younger players mature and we enter the time to compete.

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03-07-2017, 03:36 PM
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I've never argued for an extended tank. My position has drowned on here on this board because the Devils have failed to do it and these prozed draft classes have come and gone and the Devils have not capitalized despite being a brutal, brutal team.

I never wanted a multi year tank. I wanted the team to recognize what trouble they were in and let themselves get real bad real quick, get the assets that come with it and then start aggressively coming back.

Re: Hall trade, as many have pointed out, it was a 1-for-1 trade... the ages, years, even salaries were REALTIVELY similar. Does not change much at all from an ownership standpoint.

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