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Who's better: Lidstrom or Pronger?

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08-03-2004, 03:54 AM
  #51
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
when he doesnt hit because he is getting called for everything in the book or is nursing an injury, he is almsot ineffective. Players go right around him, he doesnt take the body.

take the physicality out of Pronger and he has nothing on any top 4 defensemen in the NHL.
That's nonsense.

Unless you think he is elbowing goalies to score goals or makes pass by bodychecking pucks, he's got 400 points in 722 games. He's got 51 points in 85 playoffs games. He makes crisp passes and controls the play very, very well. He is underrated as a transition man. He is doing a marvelous job at it considering his skating. He also provides leadership. And while I agree with you that he isn't as effective defensively when he doesn't get involved physically, he still does a good job. He has great range.

And yet he has nothing on ANY top 4 D in this league?

Take out Pronger's physicality and he still makes it as the #1 D on several teams. He'd be an elite offensive defenseman, good on defense and provide leadership.

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08-03-2004, 06:13 AM
  #52
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Pronger .....

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08-03-2004, 07:05 AM
  #53
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My pick is Chris Pronger.

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Old
08-03-2004, 07:29 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
Prongers game depends on his physical play. And his physical play results in him missing 10-20 games a year, sometimes more. [sometimes less].
Uh.. no. I'd say you couldn't be more wrong but you're next statement would prove me wrong. Pronger has had 2 injuries in his career... 1 was from taking a shot in the arm that led to his wrist injuries and the other was his knee during the playoffs. Only one of those two injuries were from physical play.

Quote:
If you remove physical play from pronger, you get plays like Datsyuk making him look like a Pylon when he came back form injury. Pronger HAS to play physical to play his game. If hes not, hes average.
Meanwhile lidstrom plays JUST as effective, shuts down the same exact players.... but never misses a game, never spends time in the box, and is never taken off his game.

Bottom line is, take the physical player out of pronger, and hes a scrub.
This is by far the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this or any other message board... and I don't mean ignorant as in rude.

The simple fact that the ONLY example you can come up with of Pronger getting beat was in his first week back from a year off shows that everything you said is a complete stretch.

Beyond that, there's nothing else that can really be said other than... You are wrong. To suggest that Pronger is only good because of his physical play is absurd. To suggest that Pronger doesn't play a positional game is absurd.

Anyone that thinks that either of these players is significantly better than the other simply does not know the game well enough to answer this question.

Quote:
Lidstrom is one of the most dominating defensemen in the game, and he has no downside.
Lidstrom most certainly does have a downside... when you play physical against him he's much less effective. This is exactly why the Blues were a lot better against the Wings this year than in previous years and I'd suspect that this is why he wasn't as good this past year as he had been in previous years.

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08-03-2004, 07:32 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
when he doesnt hit because he is getting called for everything in the book or is nursing an injury, he is almsot ineffective. Players go right around him, he doesnt take the body.

take the physicality out of Pronger and he has nothing on any top 4 defensemen in the NHL.


You simply keep displaying your ignorance. 99% of the time that someone comes towards Pronger with the puck he pokechecks him... ask any NHL player and they'll tell you that the worst thing about come up towards him is that his reach is incredible... not because he's going to hit him.

What's hillarious is that you keep saying that his physical play is what makes him good when the majority of Blues fans want him to be MORE physical and less of a finesse defenseman.

Once again... the simple fact that you have only ONE example of someone going "right around him" and that example was in his first week back from not playing hockey for a YEAR proves everything you're saying is a stretch.

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08-03-2004, 10:11 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionHockey
Good physical defenseman like Pronger are hard to come by. If I had to pick one it'd be Pronger. Not a knock on Lidstrom, but I also watched the Devils crease get owned by the Flyers last Spring. Lidstrom isn't exactly the type of guy to intimidate players and sometimes I think that can be a valuable asset.
Its fine to pick Pronger over Lidstrom. But Lidstrom isnt intimidated by anybody, even in the playoffs. He has been the Wings best player in each of their 3 Cup runs, and could easily have 3 Conn Smythe's, rather than the 1.

Physicality and intimidation doesnt always win out over good hockey sense and perfect positional play.

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08-03-2004, 10:16 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich


Lidstrom most certainly does have a downside... when you play physical against him he's much less effective. This is exactly why the Blues were a lot better against the Wings this year than in previous years and I'd suspect that this is why he wasn't as good this past year as he had been in previous years.

I cant agree with this at all. Many, many teams have tried to be physical with Lidstrom over the years, and it has absolutely no effect. I can count on 1 hand how many teams he was hit and knocked down last year. He is elusive and never out of position. The reason his numbers were down last year, was because after Hatcher's injury he was paired with Mathieu Schneider, and Schneider took alot of the offensive opportunities from Lidstrom. Lidstrom himself said that he concentrated more on the defensive side last year because of his pairing with Schneider.

Lidstrom does not have a downside, other than that he is getting a little bit older. But then again, Pronger isnt getting any younger either, and the style of play that Pronger uses wears more on the body than Lidstroms style.

Like I said before...its very close, but I think Nick Lidstrom is still the best defensman in the NHL right now. Acutally, I would probably put Scott Neidermayer 2nd...then Pronger. All 3 are fabulous!

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08-03-2004, 10:19 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
I cant agree with this at all. Many, many teams have tried to be physical with Lidstrom over the years, and it has absolutely no effect. I can count on 1 hand how many teams he was hit and knocked down last year. He is elusive and never out of position. The reason his numbers were down last year, was because after Hatcher's injury he was paired with Mathieu Schneider, and Schneider took alot of the offensive opportunities from Lidstrom. Lidstrom himself said that he concentrated more on the defensive side last year because of his pairing with Schneider.

Lidstrom does not have a downside, other than that he is getting a little bit older. But then again, Pronger isnt getting any younger either, and the style of play that Pronger uses wears more on the body than Lidstroms style.

Like I said before...its very close, but I think Nick Lidstrom is still the best defensman in the NHL right now. Acutally, I would probably put Scott Neidermayer 2nd...then Pronger. All 3 are fabulous!
You can argue it all you want but all you have to do is watch the first few games the Blues played vs the Wings last year to see how much they threw him off his game by putting him into the boards every time they had the chance.

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08-03-2004, 10:20 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
A few years ago I would have picked Lidström without hesitation. Extremely smart player. But he is getting slower which hurts his game. Todays it is a tossup for me, perhaps a small edge for Pronger since Lidström isn't going to get faster.
LOL, Lidstrom has never been "fast" to begin with. Have you ever seen him play? Speed is not an issue with him because he is never out of position. So your logic is skewed, in my opinion.

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08-03-2004, 10:26 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
You can argue it all you want but all you have to do is watch the first few games the Blues played vs the Wings last year to see how much they threw him off his game by putting him into the boards every time they had the chance.
LOL...I would like to admit this, but it simply isnt true. Nick gets more attention from opposing teams than any player on the Wings roster. Teams try to take him out of his game every night. Sure, it may happen a handful of times over an 80 game schedule, but it definitely isnt a "downside". To make this a reason why you choose Pronger over Lidstrom is completely rediculous. You can make the same argument about EVERY player in the league. If you pound on Forsberg, you can knock him off his game. If you pound on Naslund, you can knock him off his game. If you pound on Jarome Iginla, you can knock him off his game. Etc, etc, etc....

It sounds like an easy thing to do...but not many teams can do it. You claim the Blues did it twice last year? Well, good for the Blues.

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08-03-2004, 10:32 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
LOL...I would like to admit this, but it simply isnt true. Nick gets more attention from opposing teams than any player on the Wings roster. Teams try to take him out of his game every night. Sure, it may happen a handful of times over an 80 game schedule, but it definitely isnt a "downside". To make this a reason why you choose Pronger over Lidstrom is completely rediculous. You can make the same argument about EVERY player in the league. If you pound on Forsberg, you can knock him off his game. If you pound on Naslund, you can knock him off his game. If you pound on Jarome Iginla, you can knock him off his game. Etc, etc, etc....

It sounds like an easy thing to do...but not many teams can do it. You claim the Blues did it twice last year? Well, good for the Blues.
It's unfortunate that either don't have the ability to or choose not to read my entire posts. I never once said I would choose Pronger over Lidstrom. In fact, I've said more than once in this thread that it's ridiculous to say that one is significantly better than the other and that they're 1a and 1b.

Also, I never said it was easy to knock Lidstrom off his game. I said that when someone plays him physically, that he gets knocked off his game. Yes, this may be true for most players but it is more true for Lidstrom than it is someone like Blake or Pronger. The point simply is that Lidstrom does have a weakness unlike people here have claimed.

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08-03-2004, 10:50 AM
  #62
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Whatever Stich -

If you play Pronger physical......he takes a bonehead penalty.

Did you even watch the playoffs last year???

Stop being a Blues apologist.

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08-03-2004, 10:55 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy_Gilmore's_Dad
Whatever Stich -

If you play Pronger physical......he takes a bonehead penalty.

Did you even watch the playoffs last year???

Stop being a Blues apologist.
First of all... go back to STLToday where you belong.

Secondly, Pronger lost his cool TWICE in 86 games last year. Once against Vancouver early in the season and once in the playoffs when the Blues got royally screwed by the refs and the game was already lost. You need to let your obsession of Pronger go.

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08-03-2004, 11:04 AM
  #64
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Stich -

You're trying to tell me that I have an obsession with Pronger??



Do yourself a favor and look at how many times you try to defend Chrissy in this one thread alone. It's sickening. We're expressing OPINIONS of who we think is better and you're making it out to be The State of California vs. O.J. Simpson.


Nice Try Bud.

P.S. I've been banned from Stl Today by the Communist Mike Smith.

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08-03-2004, 11:07 AM
  #65
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Also -

If Pronger loses his cool one time in the playoffs - then he's a horrible leader.

Let's reflect on how many times San Jose scorred on the Blues in the playoffs with Pronger in the box.

I can recall 2 game winners off hand.

That's not too swell for a 7 game series.

Keep up the humor.

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08-03-2004, 11:10 AM
  #66
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You're right... losing your cool in a game that is already over shows that someone is a horrible leader.

Keep obsessing...

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08-03-2004, 11:11 AM
  #67
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I skipped most of the posts in this thread (should've just been a poll), but:

I would say they're both extremely talented, but Lidstrom is clearly the more polished and accomplished player. He also demonstrates better leadership qualities (I don't think Pronger enjoys that role, to be honest), is more durable and less likely to let his emotions get the better of him in certain situations.

If I was a GM and got to pick either one in their prime to anchor my defense, I'd pick Lidstrom. IMHO, he's the best defenceman in the NHL.

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08-03-2004, 11:11 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Also, I never said it was easy to knock Lidstrom off his game. I said that when someone plays him physically, that he gets knocked off his game. Yes, this may be true for most players but it is more true for Lidstrom than it is someone like Blake or Pronger. The point simply is that Lidstrom does have a weakness unlike people here have claimed.
Actually this is not true, believe it or not but Lidstrom has strength, he's very underrated around these boards with this catagory but he has it, he's 6'1, 190 pounds defender, but he has enough strength to handle physical power forwards like Bertuzzi, Iginla, Tkachuk, and so on.

Let's take last year's playoffs for example, Lidstrom was up against Iginla, he had Iginla covered so well that Iggy was't as affective in the series, it was the scrubs like Gelinas, Donovan, and other guys who broke the other pairings of the Red Wing defence, Lidstrom was one of Detroit's best players and you can tell he has strength from the way he coveres those big physical power forwards, not to mention his stick work is amazing, he's so great with his stick that he does't need to use his body to take players out of the crease.

You're making it seem like this is a huge downside for him, let's see some of the world's best players, Mario Lemieux, he has a big power forward size, but is Mario a hitter? is Mario a physical player? does Mario get worn down when they play physical against him? by the way, not today's Mario, the Mario that was Lidstrom's age, just so it can be a fair argument.

Jaromir Jagr, one of the most dominant forwards in his era, another player with size but does he have a physical edge? nope, yet he's the best forward next to Mario in his era, or how about Gretzky, Orr, Bourque, and so on, these guys were not big hitters, they were not physical, but some of them had strength to handle it and they did handle it, by this argument Pronger would be better then Bourque or Orr which is nowhere near.

Don't get me wrong, Pronger is a fine defender and has all the tools that a franchise d-man has, but Lidstrom is in a class of his own, Lidstrom is easily the best d-man in his era, 30 or 40 years from now people will remember Lidstrom as the best defender of this era, not Pronger, not to mention that Lidstrom is only 34 and has few more years to go, ya his production will probably be less but I still think he can rack up 50-60 points for the next 2 or 3 years and earn himself a Norris or 2.

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08-03-2004, 11:13 AM
  #69
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What game was over????

The Blues weren't blown out in the playoffs this year.

If that's his reasoning (and I'm sure that it's not).......then he's an even worse leader than I suspected.

Keep it up!!!


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08-03-2004, 11:21 AM
  #70
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This thread should have added the words: "Non-Wings & Non-Blues fans"

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08-03-2004, 11:46 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birko19
Don't get me wrong, Pronger is a fine defender and has all the tools that a franchise d-man has, but Lidstrom is in a class of his own, Lidstrom is easily the best d-man in his era, 30 or 40 years from now people will remember Lidstrom as the best defender of this era, not Pronger, not to mention that Lidstrom is only 34 and has few more years to go, ya his production will probably be less but I still think he can rack up 50-60 points for the next 2 or 3 years and earn himself a Norris or 2.
Once again... anyone that thinks that either Pronger or Lidstrom is specifically better than the other simply does know the sport well enough to post in this thread. One is a better leader. One is more physical. Which you prefer should be based on this and only this because neither is particuarly better than the other in any other area.

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08-03-2004, 11:50 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy_Gilmore's_Dad
What game was over????

The Blues weren't blown out in the playoffs this year.

If that's his reasoning (and I'm sure that it's not).......then he's an even worse leader than I suspected.

Keep it up!!!

The playoff game where Pronger lost his cool was at the 16:21 mark of the 3rd period when the Blues were losing 3-0. As much as you want to blame him for everything that is wrong with the Blues, his losing his cool had nothing to do with the outcome of the game.

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08-03-2004, 11:51 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Once again... anyone that thinks that either Pronger or Lidstrom is specifically better than the other simply does know the sport well enough to post in this thread. One is a better leader. One is more physical. Which you prefer should be based on this and only this because neither is particuarly better than the other in any other area.
Well which one is better then the other is based on opinions, my opinion is I think Lidstrom is slightly better overall then Pronger, yes Pronger has the physical edge on Lidstrom but everything else is either Lids is better, or they're equal, once again this is my opinion, so it has nothing to do with how well you know the game because I've watched both and I would like a Lidstrom type on my team over a Pronger type, not to mention that Lidstrom accomplished more as a player.

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08-03-2004, 12:01 PM
  #74
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Stich -

I'm talking about the game where Pronger got hooked in the face and then proceeded to say something bad to the ref to earn himself a penalty. This was 10 seconds after he served a penalty.

Maybe the ref's were bad, but, the point is that the supposed leader of the team took a bad bad penalty in the playoffs and hurt his team for it.

I cannot picture Lidstrom doing that to his team.

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08-03-2004, 01:54 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birko19
Well which one is better then the other is based on opinions, my opinion is I think Lidstrom is slightly better overall then Pronger, yes Pronger has the physical edge on Lidstrom but everything else is either Lids is better, or they're equal, once again this is my opinion, so it has nothing to do with how well you know the game because I've watched both and I would like a Lidstrom type on my team over a Pronger type, not to mention that Lidstrom accomplished more as a player.
If Lidstrom is slightly better overall than Pronger then Lidstrom is not in a class of his own.

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