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Who's better: Lidstrom or Pronger?

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Old
08-03-2004, 01:56 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy_Gilmore's_Dad
Stich -

I'm talking about the game where Pronger got hooked in the face and then proceeded to say something bad to the ref to earn himself a penalty. This was 10 seconds after he served a penalty.

Maybe the ref's were bad, but, the point is that the supposed leader of the team took a bad bad penalty in the playoffs and hurt his team for it.
If that's all you got on him then I'm done with you... unless of course you have any clue what he said to the official?

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08-03-2004, 02:20 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
BTW... a few seasons ago GM's were polled and asked this very question. 80% said Pronger.
That was before Lidstrom won the Norris 3 straight times (and SHOULD have the year Pronger somehow won it).

Lidstrom is far and away the smarter, better defenseman. Pronger is big, but not all that fast or manuverable. He takes himself out of the play at times looking for the big hit. Lidstrom will never do this. And Lidstrom consistantly outscores Pronger (over the course of ALL their careers, not just one isolated year), far fewer PIM, and ties up his man better and in a more controlled manner. Lidstrom is, simply, the measuring stick ALL NHL defensemen are measured against today.

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08-03-2004, 03:05 PM
  #78
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As you can probably tell by my user name I'm a bit biased. Pronger is my favorite player.

I take Pronger rather easily. Pronger is 29, Lidstrom is 34. Pronger scored 54 points in 80 games as opposed to Lidstrom's 38 in 81. With his style, Lidstrom may play until he is 40 but the 38 points he scored last year suggest he may be starting to slow down. Not that I hold the Norris nominations as the word of God, but I also noticed that Lidstrom wasn't nominated in the top 3 this year. Was this an oversight? I think not.

No doubt both are great defensemen. However - and this is just my opinion mind you - my pick is Pronger...easily.

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08-03-2004, 03:13 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zecke26
lidstrom is IMO the best defender the last two decades. he simply has it.

pronger on the other hand is the most overrated player of the NHL. boy, i really dislike him and all the pronger homers. he was given the norris several times although he didn't deserve it.

but isn't this a discussion that starter some years ago and will probably never end?
You are very uninformed Pronger has only won one Norris although if it wasnt for the injuries he may have several and by the time he is done he probably still will. Maybe somewhere along the line he can give Lidstrom a nice High stick just for good measure.

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08-03-2004, 03:18 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceace
This thread should have added the words: "Non-Wings & Non-Blues fans"
Thinking about that you are right Bro. All this is turining into is a pissing contest between the two sides.

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08-03-2004, 03:25 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
Thinking about that you are right Bro. All this is turining into is a pissing contest between the two sides.
No, just people who hate Pronger, and everyone else !

OK, I'm just kidding. But I really do think Lidstrom is easily the better hockey player in every single aspect of the game except highsticking. And that's against the rules. But I think Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque were better that Lidstrom.

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08-03-2004, 03:33 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
No, just people who hate Pronger, and everyone else !

OK, I'm just kidding. But I really do think Lidstrom is easily the better hockey player in every single aspect of the game except highsticking. And that's against the rules. But I think Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque were better that Lidstrom.
Hey, we're all allowed to have our opinions. That's what makes it all fun.

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Old
08-03-2004, 03:51 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
and SHOULD have the year Pronger somehow won it.
I'd really like to know what this is based on. Because, the voters not only thought he was the best defenseman in the league that year they also thought he was the best and most valuable player that year... something that no defenseman had done since Bobby Orr.

Quote:
Lidstrom is far and away the smarter, better defenseman.
If by smarter you mean that he's less emotional then you'd be accurate.

However, if by smarter you mean he reads the play and plays smarter defensively you'd be wrong. Neither is any better at that than the other because the two of them are the best at it.

Quote:
Pronger is big, but not all that fast or manuverable.
Pronger might not be the league's fastest skater, but to suggest that it's a weakness is absurd.

Quote:
He takes himself out of the play at times looking for the big hit.
Pronger doesn't absolutely no such thing.

Quote:
Lidstrom consistantly outscores Pronger (over the course of ALL their careers, not just one isolated year),
Last 6 seasons:
Pronger: .722 PPG
Lidstrom: .742 PPG

Not that much of a difference now is it?

Before anyone asks, the reason I used the last 6 seasons is because that's when Pronger's offensive game developed and using any more than those 6 seasons would not be an accurate comparison of their offensive abilities today.

Quote:
ties up his man better and in a more controlled manner.
Of all the absurd things that you said, this has got to take the cake. Pronger is THE BEST at tying up players both along the boards and in front of the net. In fact, this isn't even a strength of Lidstrom so to suggest he's better than Pronger in this year is actually quite amusing.

In any event, what is becoming an increasingly obvious trend in this thread is that everyone know tries to claim Lidstrom is significantly better than Pronger as Jiggs just did has to fabricate lies about Pronger such as him taking himself out of plays to make hits or that Lidstrom always outscores Pronger to make their point.

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08-03-2004, 03:57 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
BTW... a few seasons ago GM's were polled and asked this very question. 80% said Pronger.
key thing: a few seasons ago..

Lids has won a few norris' in the past few years... HUGE difference when comparing him to pronger IMHO..

I pick nik, but CP is definitly 1 hell of a good defensemen

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08-03-2004, 05:06 PM
  #85
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I heard Pronger is looking for a new publicist.

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08-03-2004, 05:21 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadoz19
I heard Pronger is looking for a new publicist.
Considering all the lies that Wings fans are making up and spreading because they can't handle the idea of one of their precious Wings not being the best player in the history of the NHL, I could see why.

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08-03-2004, 08:44 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Considering all the lies that Wings fans are making up and spreading because they can't handle the idea of one of their precious Wings not being the best player in the history of the NHL, I could see why.
You need to take this whole thing a little less seriously. Chill out.

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Old
08-03-2004, 09:59 PM
  #88
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Lol

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:32 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadoz19
You need to take this whole thing a little less seriously. Chill out.
what, so you are trying to say Pronger doesnt take things this serious? Typical Wings fan response.

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Old
08-04-2004, 07:04 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X8oD
what, so you are trying to say Pronger doesnt take things this serious? Typical Wings fan response.
I was refferring to Stich

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Old
08-04-2004, 07:09 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
Considering all the lies that Wings fans are making up and spreading because they can't handle the idea of one of their precious Wings not being the best player in the history of the NHL, I could see why.
Dumb...simply dumb. Listen, you've made good points and others have made good points. These are all opinions, and that is just fine. No need to get all bent out of shape with stuff like this. Nobody is making up lies. Lidstrom and Pronger are both terrific defensmen, I think thats been the consensus in this thread. Its been a good thread, now dont go ruining it by calling people "liars" and such.

Both guys are great defensmen. End of thread.

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08-04-2004, 08:21 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Both guys are great defensmen. End of thread.

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Old
08-04-2004, 10:51 AM
  #93
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Lidstrom:

1 Conn Smythe (first euro ever)
3 Norris
3 Stanley Cup

Enough.

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Old
08-04-2004, 11:24 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SectionX
Lidstrom:

1 Conn Smythe (first euro ever)
3 Norris
3 Stanley Cup

Enough.
I guess that right there ends this debate.


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Old
08-04-2004, 11:31 AM
  #95
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Well - The Votes are tallied and here are the results:

Pronger - 16 Votes

Lidstrom - 30 Votes


It's a 2-1 margain so far.

Also -

Stich = You managed to reply around 10 times without a vote.

C-Carp = What is it with this comment??? : "Maybe Pronger will give Nik a high-stick for good measure"

What is your disfunction?? You guys make Blues fans look Horrid.

:lol

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Old
08-04-2004, 01:26 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SectionX
Lidstrom:

1 Conn Smythe (first euro ever)
3 Norris
3 Stanley Cup

Enough.
1. And Pronger could be the first Canadian ever to win the Conn Smythe. (No, someone else beat him to that.) Seriously, this should go with #3 below.
2. and....?
3. Lidstrom had to play 7+ seasons before winning his 1st Cup. Ray Bourque had to play 21 seasons before winning one. So...does that mean Lidstrom is a better defenseman than Bourque? And Darren McCarty has 3 Cups to his credit, Joe Sakic has only 2. So does that mean McCarty is better than Sakic?

Seriously....the "reasons" some people offer to justify their pick are just laughable.

I say we listen to Higgy4 - this thread was done last year before Black Thursday and turned into a huge pissing contest that ended up with the thread being closed...so I don't see where anything is going to be gained by going further.

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Old
08-04-2004, 02:53 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
I'd really like to know what this is based on. Because, the voters not only thought he was the best defenseman in the league that year they also thought he was the best and most valuable player that year... something that no defenseman had done since Bobby Orr.



If by smarter you mean that he's less emotional then you'd be accurate.

However, if by smarter you mean he reads the play and plays smarter defensively you'd be wrong. Neither is any better at that than the other because the two of them are the best at it.



Pronger might not be the league's fastest skater, but to suggest that it's a weakness is absurd.



Pronger doesn't absolutely no such thing.



Last 6 seasons:
Pronger: .722 PPG
Lidstrom: .742 PPG

Not that much of a difference now is it?

Before anyone asks, the reason I used the last 6 seasons is because that's when Pronger's offensive game developed and using any more than those 6 seasons would not be an accurate comparison of their offensive abilities today.



Of all the absurd things that you said, this has got to take the cake. Pronger is THE BEST at tying up players both along the boards and in front of the net. In fact, this isn't even a strength of Lidstrom so to suggest he's better than Pronger in this year is actually quite amusing.

In any event, what is becoming an increasingly obvious trend in this thread is that everyone know tries to claim Lidstrom is significantly better than Pronger as Jiggs just did has to fabricate lies about Pronger such as him taking himself out of plays to make hits or that Lidstrom always outscores Pronger to make their point.
Well, I must be thinking about SEAN Pronger, then, because the Pronger I see play for the St. Louis Blues does all of these things every game. Does Sean play in St. Louis and wear #44?
Lidstrom is THE acknowledged best in the NHL at tying his man up in front of the net. He also does a pretty good job against the boards. Better than Pronger, IMO.
I said more than one isolated year for the scoring. You say you looked at the last 6 years. Where? You quoted LAST SEASON'S PPG average, which was Lidstrom's WORST in 8 years. And it was STILL better than Pronger's! And you talk about ME having to make things up!
Anyway, I'm done with this topic. We all have our opinions on what makes a great player or defenseman, and mine are different than yours.

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Old
08-04-2004, 04:05 PM
  #98
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Stich: Lidstrom most certainly does have a downside... when you play physical against him he's much less effective. This is exactly why the Blues were a lot better against the Wings this year than in previous years and I'd suspect that this is why he wasn't as good this past year as he had been in previous years.

How often do opposing forwards play physical against Lidstrom, and accomplish what they're trying to do which is throw him off his game? Maybe 2 times a season? The Blues finished 1-3-1-1 against the Wings this year. So I guess you're right, they most certainly did do a lot better against the Wings this season than in ones before, didn't they? They actually beat the Wings this year! Mind you the score was 6-5 and Hasek was playing injured.

One other thing people, Lidstrom's point total was down this season because he was paired with Schneider for the better part of the season. He was covering up for Schneider while he was taking risky oppurtunities. Nick even said that this season he was more focused on his defensive game, rather than his offensive.

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08-04-2004, 04:14 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DynastyWings05
You're the owner of an NHL team. Both Lidstrom and Pronger are entering their prime and desperately want to play for your team. But you only have room for one of them. Forget about contracts, age, the CBA and everything else. Which player do you choose and why?
lidstrom offensively pronger for his nastieness, both play different games

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08-04-2004, 05:39 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Lidstrom is THE acknowledged best in the NHL at tying his man up in front of the net.
By who?

Quote:
He also does a pretty good job against the boards. Better than Pronger, IMO.
No, he's not.

Quote:
I said more than one isolated year for the scoring.
Which is why I gave you the PPG for the past 6 years.

Quote:
You say you looked at the last 6 years. Where? You quoted LAST SEASON'S PPG average, which was Lidstrom's WORST in 8 years.
Uh, no. I gave you the last 6 years.

Quote:
And it was STILL better than Pronger's! And you talk about ME having to make things up!


Genius. I gave you the last 6 years combined. Meaning that over the past 6 years that Lidstrom who you claim is considerably better offensively is barely better than Pronger offensively.

What I just can't comprehend is how you can claim to know so much about these two players but you a) don't know that Lidstrom came no where near .700 PPG this year and that b) Pronger considerably outscored Lidstrom. If you don't know this much off the top of your head then you sure as hell are not qualified to be evaluating these players.

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