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Who's better: Lidstrom or Pronger?

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08-04-2004, 05:42 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DynastyWings05
How often do opposing forwards play physical against Lidstrom, and accomplish what they're trying to do which is throw him off his game? Maybe 2 times a season? The Blues finished 1-3-1-1 against the Wings this year. So I guess you're right, they most certainly did do a lot better against the Wings this season than in ones before, didn't they? They actually beat the Wings this year! Mind you the score was 6-5 and Hasek was playing injured.
As I've already said in this thread, I never said it was easy to take Lidstrom off his game just that you can do so. As for '2 times a season'... in all but the final 2 games between the Blues and the Wings, the Blues were able to shake up Lidstrom. That's 4 times from the Blues alone and I'd imagine that a few other teams pulled it off this year also.

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08-04-2004, 07:30 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Stich
As I've already said in this thread, I never said it was easy to take Lidstrom off his game just that you can do so. As for '2 times a season'... in all but the final 2 games between the Blues and the Wings, the Blues were able to shake up Lidstrom. That's 4 times from the Blues alone and I'd imagine that a few other teams pulled it off this year also.

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08-04-2004, 08:12 PM
  #103
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They are both great. But I'd pick Pronger.

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08-04-2004, 08:37 PM
  #104
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Lidstrom, he's one of the best all-round and a prototype defenceman for the modern game. He does everything well, is a good team guy, lifts his game in the clutch, is not injury prone and has been central to several successful teams. Pronger was going to be the prototype for the modern game but injuries, contract dilemmas and some up and down Blues teams have taken a bit of the lustre off an excellent player .....

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08-04-2004, 08:37 PM
  #105
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Pronger easily.

He is about as positionally sound as you can get. And he doesnt get credit for that often. He isnt boneheaded like everybody likes to make him out to be. He does take a bad one every once in a while, But he is a damn smart player too. He is the most dominant player in the game if you ask me. The only time ive ever seen anyone blow around him like someone on here described, was his first game back from knee surgery against datsyuk and the wings. And it was I think game 78. And that was the only time Ive seen anyone blow right around pronger. And I see about 75 blues games a year. Im 25 and I think he is easily the best defenseman Ive seen play the game. I have lidstrom right there too, but if i had to choose ... pronger whithout blinking.

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08-04-2004, 08:41 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topshelf331
Pronger easily.

pronger whithout blinking.
stop being a homer stich.

You attack wings fans for saying "Lidstrom, hands down" and say its close enough not to take either "with out thinking."

a blues fan just did the same thing, im expecting a full throttling from you in his direction. Its only fair right?

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08-04-2004, 08:52 PM
  #107
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Let me get this right... because I don't respond to someone saying "Pronger easily" withing 4 minutes, I'm a homer?

Or, am I homer because I said that Lidstrom and Pronger are equals?

That makes a ton of sense.

Now to respond to your 'request', no I won't be going at him full throttle because he didn't fabricate any lies about Lidstrom in his post. Numerous people have said in this thread that they'd easily take Lidstrom. The only ones that I've replied to were those that inaccurately evaluated Pronger in their posts.

I've said numerous times in this thread that neither is significantly better than the other and that wasn't directed to just Wings fans.

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08-04-2004, 08:56 PM
  #108
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I'd take Lidstrom over Pronger every day of the week and twice on sunday.

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08-04-2004, 09:57 PM
  #109
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Part of being a great defenseman is usually having a physical presence, you you face off against the Fedorovs and Ziggy Palffys of the world they are almost completely ineffective because they are afraid to pay the price.

I'm surprised theres no Zdeno Chara or Scott Niedermayer option...both are worthy of being considered the best defensemen in the league.

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08-04-2004, 10:06 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyKiller
Part of being a great defenseman is usually having a physical presence, you you face off against the Fedorovs and Ziggy Palffys of the world they are almost completely ineffective because they are afraid to pay the price.

I'm surprised theres no Zdeno Chara or Scott Niedermayer option...both are worthy of being considered the best defensemen in the league.

Niedermayer makes you "pay the price"??????

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08-04-2004, 10:10 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by me2
Lidtrom: healthier, better goal scorer, better point producer, smarter, better skater, less penalty prone.

Pronger: nastier, stronger, better hitter.

I also think Lidstrom can play his existing game until he is 38-40, while I'm not sure Pronger can. Something to think about if you were taking the player for a career rather than just one year.

I'd take Lidstrom for just one year, but it would be very close (almost depend on the makeup of the exisiting D). For a career Lidstrom hands down.
the point difference is .02 PPG, thats not very significant. Lidstrom didn't look like he did in previous years.

Pronger has the physical element that scares alot of skill players and makes them ineffective.

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08-04-2004, 10:14 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by me2
Niedermayer makes you "pay the price"??????
I didn't say that did I?No I didn't, I said I was surprised Chara and Niedermayer weren't considered...doesn't mean I think either is the best.

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08-04-2004, 11:55 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyKiller
Part of being a great defenseman is usually having a physical presence, you you face off against the Fedorovs and Ziggy Palffys of the world they are almost completely ineffective because they are afraid to pay the price.

I'm surprised theres no Zdeno Chara or Scott Niedermayer option...both are worthy of being considered the best defensemen in the league.
Like you said Rally...USUALLY. Lidstrom is without a doubt an exception to this rule. Even in the 97 Finals against the Flyers, Bowman went against the norm and used Lidstrom and Larry Murphy exclusively against Lindros and Leclair (who were at their peak at the time). The non-physical, but extremely smart and positionally sound tandem of Murphy and Lidstrom held the Legion of Doom almost completely off the scoresheet.

I enjoy watching big, punishing defensmen as much as the next guy. I think Pronger is fantastic. I think Chara is the next great defensman on the NHL horizon. But you dont ALWAYS have to be physical to shut teams down. And Lidstrom has proven that for over 10 years. Scott Neidermayer is another like Lidstrom. He isnt all that physical, but you'd be hard pressed to name 4 defensmen in the league who are better defenisively than Niedermayer.

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08-05-2004, 12:40 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy_Gilmore's_Dad
Well - The Votes are tallied and here are the results:

Pronger - 16 Votes

Lidstrom - 30 Votes


It's a 2-1 margain so far.

Also -

Stich = You managed to reply around 10 times without a vote.

C-Carp = What is it with this comment??? : "Maybe Pronger will give Nik a high-stick for good measure"

What is your disfunction?? You guys make Blues fans look Horrid.

:lol
I dont give two ***** what I make Blues fans look like. I meant exactly what I said Maybe Prongs could give Lidstrom a good High stick or a slash on the wrist and put him out for a while sort of making up for the low hit Yzerman gave him a few years back that caused his knee problems.

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08-05-2004, 12:44 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
I dont give two ***** what I make Blues fans look like. I meant exactly what I said Maybe Prongs could give Lidstrom a good High stick or a slash on the wrist and put him out for a while sort of making up for the low hit Yzerman gave him a few years back that caused his knee problems.

It wasn't Yzerman who tried to hit Pronger. Just avoiding Pronger's attempted hit.

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08-05-2004, 12:47 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by shadoz19
It wasn't Yzerman who tried to hit Pronger. Just avoiding Pronger's attempted hit.
I know he was avoiding the hit but he ducked down stuck his rear end into Pronger Low causing the knee injury. To me that is the same as coming into a guy low. I thought it was a cheap play.

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08-05-2004, 12:50 PM
  #117
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Lidstrom : 5 or 6 Norris can't lie

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Old
08-05-2004, 01:03 PM
  #118
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pronger is in a class of his own...lidstrom's accomplished more because he's been healthier (which is certainly part of the equation) and he's been part of FAR better teams. cant emphasise that enough, FAR BETTER TEAMS! but nick will NEVER win a hart trophy. no other defenseman playing in the league right now will win a hart...and i for one think pronger should have won 2...i think he was snubbed the year before he won his. lidstrom has accomplished more, but pronger is better.

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08-05-2004, 01:07 PM
  #119
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Detroit fans - Help me out here.

Was Pronger going in on Yzerman with his stick up causing Steve to duck?

Anyway - C-Carp = That's just sick. Go after Lidstrom for something that Yzerman did. Fisher (sp?) and McCarty would love that!!!

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08-05-2004, 01:33 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FACTORY
pronger is in a class of his own...lidstrom's accomplished more because he's been healthier (which is certainly part of the equation) and he's been part of FAR better teams. cant emphasise that enough, FAR BETTER TEAMS! but nick will NEVER win a hart trophy. no other defenseman playing in the league right now will win a hart...and i for one think pronger should have won 2...i think he was snubbed the year before he won his. lidstrom has accomplished more, but pronger is better.
I guess playoff MVP doesn't mean too much


Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
To me that is the same as coming into a guy low. I thought it was a cheap play.
Considering the way Pronger was barrelling down at him, and the fact that he didn't see him comin until it was almost too late. Pronger probably would have taken him outta the series if he hit him. Considering his knee, Yzerman wasn't exactly that mobile. What did you expect him to do? Get killed? I highly doubt most players in the NHL would consider that play cheap. But you're entitled to your opinions.

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08-05-2004, 01:41 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by shadoz19
I guess playoff MVP doesn't mean too much




Considering the way Pronger was barrelling down at him, and the fact that he didn't see him comin until it was almost too late. Pronger probably would have taken him outta the series if he hit him. Considering his knee, Yzerman wasn't exactly that mobile. What did you expect him to do? Get killed? I highly doubt most players in the NHL would consider that play cheap. But you're entitled to your opinions.
I think a persons rep goes a long way in these things. I agree that Stevie isnt generally a cheap player but I thought he made a cheap play here.

What if the situations are reversed its Pronger ducking to avoid an Yzerman hit and he tears his knee up. Prongs is a cheap and or mean player at times so I think there would have been a lot more *****ing about the play if the roles were reversed and I would have admitted that the play was just as cheap. To me going in low on a player to avoid a hit wether he saw him coming at the last minute or not was a cheap play.

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08-05-2004, 02:40 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy_Gilmore's_Dad
Detroit fans - Help me out here.

Was Pronger going in on Yzerman with his stick up causing Steve to duck?

Anyway - C-Carp = That's just sick. Go after Lidstrom for something that Yzerman did. Fisher (sp?) and McCarty would love that!!!
Nope, it was GOING to be another dirty play by Pronger (hitting Yzerman in the head while his eye was on the puck in his skates), until Stevie sensed him coming and ducked a bit. Pronger running into Yzerman is in NO WAY Yzerman's fault! Anyone who thinks so has never played a contact sport. How in the world does Yzerman avoid the hit, unless he can "beam down" to a different area of the ice on command? He just planted his feet quickly and ducked slightly and took the hit. The fact that Pronger is a foot (well, OK, only 9 inches) taller probably had the most to do with his knee injury, not anything Yzerman did or didn't do. Just like it's the Red Wings' fault Pronger had his heart stop 2? years before that in the playoffs when he blocked a shot. Mean, nasty Red Wings! How DARE they shoot the puck when the mighty Pronger is on the ice? He might get hurt!

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08-05-2004, 02:51 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stich
By who?



No, he's not.



Which is why I gave you the PPG for the past 6 years.



Uh, no. I gave you the last 6 years.





Genius. I gave you the last 6 years combined. Meaning that over the past 6 years that Lidstrom who you claim is considerably better offensively is barely better than Pronger offensively.

What I just can't comprehend is how you can claim to know so much about these two players but you a) don't know that Lidstrom came no where near .700 PPG this year and that b) Pronger considerably outscored Lidstrom. If you don't know this much off the top of your head then you sure as hell are not qualified to be evaluating these players.
OK, GENIUS, here are the REAL numbers for the past 6 years (your time line):
Lidstrom: Pronger:
1998-99 57 pts. 46 pts.
1999-00 73 pts. 62 pts.
2000-01 71 pts. 47 pts.
2001-02 59 pts. 47 pts.
2002-03 62 pts. 4 pts.
2003-04 38 pts. 54 pts.

As you can see (or can you?), Pronger is BY FAR the lesser scorer, and has been the past 6 years (again, YOUR time line). He has outscored Lidstrom ONCE (last season) in those 6 years. Give your head a shake! They are NOT equal offensively and never have been! Sheesh! Even IF Pronger could stay healthy, he would still be getting outscored by Nik (using your accurate .742 for Lidstrom, .722 for Pronger PPG). But he doesn't stay healthy, and that's part of why Lidstrom is a better pick.


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08-05-2004, 03:02 PM
  #124
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Nicklas Lidstrom

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08-05-2004, 03:05 PM
  #125
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Pronger because of his physical play.

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