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Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part III

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07-13-2011, 10:40 AM
  #51
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LOL. Now that Zach is with a REAL organization that will be properly run he will show how good he can be. He was thrown to the Wolves as the main shutdown D-Man and didnt respond well to that. Why? BECAUSE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN HIS MAIN ROLE ANYWHERE HE HAS PLAYED! He led his junior team in scoring for a reason. Because he has skill. Those morons in Atlanta clearly didnt know that...The Atlanta Thrashers always were a mickey mouse organization. Horrible owners, GMs, coaching staff etc. all the way down the line it was an abomination of a franchise. Why do you think teams like Atlanta, Columbus, Florida always have problems developing their young players? Because the organizations are horrible. The kids have no one there to show them the way. They rush them into crappy teams where their careers basically go to hell. I sure hope it isnt to late for Bogo because he has all the tools to be a star in this league. He did score 9 and 10 goals as an 18 and 19 year old... thats nothing to sneeze at. Pretty impressive. Get him a coaching staff that actually knows what theyre doing and youll be amazed at what lots of these young kids can do and how their games will progress. Winnipeg is looking much better then those tools in Atlanta. Evander Kane will score 35+ this year and Bogo will score 15. Mark my words.

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07-13-2011, 10:49 AM
  #52
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He's obviously not "garbage", if you're in the NHL you're doing something right.

But Zach has some serious holes in his game that 3 years of NHL experience just haven't seemed to make smaller. It may be part of our former organization, although we had Craig Ramsay who is one of the best teachers in the NHL in one season was able to help multiple players on our roster with their individual games. He turned Hainsey from a former offensive d-man to our 2nd best shutdown defenseman behind Toby.

But Zach for some reason just kept regressing. Don't get me wrong, there were stages later in the year when he showed flashes of greatness, but who knows what that really means. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Zach is not hockey smart. He doesn't know what to do in his own zone, which is bad when you play defense. Hockey IQ is not something easily taught and that is my biggest issue with belieiving better days are ahead. Even his offensive game which was once poised to be his biggest upside has pretty much gone backwards. His shot, albeit powerful never hits the target and often ends up going around the boards creating a break for the opposition.

I'm not on the optimistic side with him because his attitude and work ethic have been questioned time and time again. Perhaps the change of scenery will help, but I will remain cautious.
all fair points

I tend to be optimistic but will acknowledge that everyone doesn't live up to their potential. I think Bogo's upside dictates that they give it one or to two more years and hope that he matures and grows. sometimes it’s just a matter of time on the job and there is no way to trick the development process.

I am concerned about your comments about attitude and work ethic and from what I know about Chevy I don't think that will fly. I am a bit surprised Chevy made such a bold statement about Zack, he doesn't seem like the type of guy that says things he doesn't mean?

Zack is going into year 4 and he will need to grow and own his results and at a minimum bring work ethic to the equation. As you said "Perhaps a change of scenery will help"?

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07-13-2011, 10:50 AM
  #53
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LOL. Now that Zach is with a REAL organization that will be properly run he will show how good he can be. He was thrown to the Wolves as the main shutdown D-Man and didnt respond well to that. Why? BECAUSE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN HIS MAIN ROLE ANYWHERE HE HAS PLAYED! He led his junior team in scoring for a reason. Because he has skill. Those morons in Atlanta clearly didnt know that...The Atlanta Thrashers always were a mickey mouse organization. Horrible owners, GMs, coaching staff etc. all the way down the line it was an abomination of a franchise. Why do you think teams like Atlanta, Columbus, Florida always have problems developing their young players? Because the organizations are horrible. The kids have no one there to show them the way. They rush them into crappy teams where their careers basically go to hell. I sure hope it isnt to late for Bogo because he has all the tools to be a star in this league. He did score 9 and 10 goals as an 18 and 19 year old... thats nothing to sneeze at. Pretty impressive. Get him a coaching staff that actually knows what theyre doing and youll be amazed at what lots of these young kids can do and how their games will progress. Winnipeg is looking much better then those tools in Atlanta. Evander Kane will score 35+ this year and Bogo will score 15. Mark my words.
I think you could have gotten your point across without all the insults directed towards the Atlanta franchise.

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07-13-2011, 10:56 AM
  #54
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I think you could have gotten your point across without all the insults directed towards the Atlanta franchise.
x2..

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07-13-2011, 11:07 AM
  #55
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You know actually as a still hurting Thrashers fan, I agree with most of those insults. I think the quality of the organ-eye-zation (he he) will be one of those things that puts the "will people sign here" thing to rest. I'm excited for our guys getting to work with a real hockey club, not an after thought to someone's hobby.

I never understood though people talking about "mickey mouse" organizations. Have you ever been to Walt Disney World or a Disney production of anything? They are run like a machine, very high quality lol.

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07-13-2011, 11:23 AM
  #56
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You know actually as a still hurting Thrashers fan, I agree with most of those insults. I think the quality of the organ-eye-zation (he he) will be one of those things that puts the "will people sign here" thing to rest. I'm excited for our guys getting to work with a real hockey club, not an after thought to someone's hobby.

I never understood though people talking about "mickey mouse" organizations. Have you ever been to Walt Disney World or a Disney production of anything? They are run like a machine, very high quality lol.
Yeah, most firms aspire to run themselves half as well as Disney does. I love the jokes about “we’re amassing a global corporate empire to take over the world”. And while I genuinely feel for the supporters from Atlanta, the more I learn about the Atlanta Spirit Group, the more I think were I in that position, it’d almost be a blessing to have the team owned and operated by a firm like True North. It seems like night and day in terms of how they go about their business.

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07-13-2011, 11:52 AM
  #57
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Well maybe I could have been lighter on the insults but the fact of the matter is it is true. And that isnt to say I think it was JUST Atlanta. Probably 20-25% of NHL teams are run very poorly. Atlanta happened to be one of them. There is a reason the same teams are at the top every year and others are at the bottom even after acquiring top 10 draft picks every year. Sure there is a lot of luck that goes into it and the players are also accountable for their actions. If a guy like Pavel Brendl didnt like Krispy Kreme donuts so much who knows what kind of NHL career he would have had? Winnipeg looks like they are taking the right approach to run a successful organization at any cost. Obviously over the next 5 years we will see what kind of direction they take. Hopefully they can because there are a lot of really nice pieces here. Kane, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Little, Wheeler, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Pavelec etc. is a nice young core that could really thrive if guided properly.

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07-13-2011, 12:01 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Canadian North View Post
Bogosian is not Chris Pronger, nor will he ever be even half of the player that Pronger is.

Bogosian has major character issues, huge flaws in his game, and was the worst defenseman on the Thrashers last season, possibly even the worst defenseman in the division not named Tyler Sloan. Zach plays when Zach wants to. He doesn't like being criticized, and by all reports, was NOT good with the coaching staff.

He needs to go while he still has some value. Bogosian is garbage.
This goes quite a bit further with criticism than I would have gone, but I think it's a lot closer to the truth than the glowing reports that you'd find elsewhere.

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I'm really starting to notice a trend here. It seems to be fans of the Thrashers against new fans of the Jets. I can totally understand the frustration of watching a VERY young and immature player with so much promise struggle. Bogosian is getting blamed for this, but in reality this is the orgs fault. They rushed him into the league before he was ready, and he is suffering for that. The biggest problem with bringing young blue chippers onto a team so young is it's usually done out of necessity, which tells us the team is bad. That means the environment for that player is one that fosters failure, not success. I've seen it time and time again.

Good organizations bring thier players along more slowly, and give them opportunity for success, not failure. They do this by surrounding them with vets, a winning environment, and temper expectations for the player with smaller roles to start, giving them more responsibility as they grow.

Putting a very young defenceman in a top 4 role against NHL superstars on a bad team is an absolute recipe for disaster.

Look at these comparisons:



vs.


Those 2 players? Bogosian and Chris Pronger. The differences?

-Chris was a year older than Zach in this sample (first 3 years in the NHL)
-In Prongers final year, he was on a veteran laden St. Louis Blues team with guys like Hull, MacInnis, Fuhr, and Shayne Corson.

It's no surprise in that final year, with veteran tutelage, a more stable team and less responsibility, Pronger started to grow and mature at the age of 22.

P.S. there are more examples, but I don't want this post to become a novel.

I will not be surprised to see Bogosians role pared back at the beginning of this season. Huddy will strip him down, get him working on the fundamentals of defensive hockey and slowly build him up again. Look to see Bogosian in the bottom pair for at least the beginning of the year, barring a spectacular preseason.

Just as patience is starting to pay off WRT the moves the new org is making here in Winnipeg, people need to step back and REALLY think about what Bogosian was being put through in Atlanta. I know when I was 19 I was in no shape to take on that kind of responsibility.

People who are saying he's 'garbage' and 'the worst defenceman in the NHL' etc. are being extremely unfair and short sighted.
The only comparisons between Bogosian and Pronger is that both played young, and both were drafted out of Peterborough. That's where the comparisons end.

When I saw Pronger in Peterborough, it was very obvious that he had phenomenal physical gifts and also made the plays that veterans and wise youngsters make. When I saw Pronger in Hartford, meandering around and looking lost, it was obvious that once his physical tools caught up with his mind, he was going to be a star. People lost their heads and declared Pronger a lost cause after two years because he wasn't (at that point) quick enough or mobile enough to be able to keep up with what his mind was telling him to do.

When I saw Bogosian in high school and Peterborough, I didn't get the same feeling. His greatest plays are those that involve the bare minimum of reaction on his part...a one-timer on the power play, an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone, and that's pretty much it. His positioning is awful, his reactions are crap, and his instincts are non-existent. It's not going to get better; he relied on physical tools to get him this far, and now when everyone has similar tools, he's being left behind because he cannot read and react.

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I really think this is the best idea for Bogo. Pull back the responsibility. Baby steps, let him get some confidence back.

When you are 19 and are playing against the very best forwards on the planet, you are probably going to get eaten up.

The best part about Bogosian, is that you can't teach talent but you CAN teach defensive positioning and smarts.
I vehemently disagree. There are some things that are simply innate that cannot be taught. It can be instructed and improved, but it's not going to approach the same level as someone who has that innate gift. A scientist is unlikely to be able to conjure up rhymes as quickly as a rapper, and a poet is unlikely to have the mental mathematical capabilities of a statistician. A drunkard is unlikely to have the palate of a food critic, and I've gone far enough with this.

Defensive instincts, much like offensive instincts, are innate. Someone who lacks the capability to make the most basic reads and react accordingly is not long for the league if they lack physical skills; those who have the skills can stick around for years on the second and third pairing. Bogosian's best comparable is Rostislav Klesla, who also had a single-minded approach and a terrific work ethic. People will say that Klesla was "rushed" (not true), and that explains why he's never been anything more than a second-pairing defenseman. That's not the case; he lacks those instincts, and that's what's prevented him from becoming in 11 years what the physical tools would demonstrate.

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07-13-2011, 12:06 PM
  #59
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I think you could have gotten your point across without all the insults directed towards the Atlanta franchise.
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x2..
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Originally Posted by Sunshine36616 View Post
You know actually as a still hurting Thrashers fan, I agree with most of those insults. I think the quality of the organ-eye-zation (he he) will be one of those things that puts the "will people sign here" thing to rest. I'm excited for our guys getting to work with a real hockey club, not an after thought to someone's hobby.

I never understood though people talking about "mickey mouse" organizations. Have you ever been to Walt Disney World or a Disney production of anything? They are run like a machine, very high quality lol.
Whereas I wholeheartedly agree the poster could have been more tactful and respectful in his post, ATL fans have to admit that's EXACTLY what you have been saying about the org all along, and precisely why the team left in the first place.

I do realize though no matter how awful the org was run you still love it.

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07-13-2011, 12:09 PM
  #60
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LOL. Now that Zach is with a REAL organization that will be properly run he will show how good he can be. He was thrown to the Wolves as the main shutdown D-Man and didnt respond well to that. Why? BECAUSE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN HIS MAIN ROLE ANYWHERE HE HAS PLAYED! He led his junior team in scoring for a reason. Because he has skill. Those morons in Atlanta clearly didnt know that...The Atlanta Thrashers always were a mickey mouse organization. Horrible owners, GMs, coaching staff etc. all the way down the line it was an abomination of a franchise. Why do you think teams like Atlanta, Columbus, Florida always have problems developing their young players? Because the organizations are horrible. The kids have no one there to show them the way. They rush them into crappy teams where their careers basically go to hell. I sure hope it isnt to late for Bogo because he has all the tools to be a star in this league. He did score 9 and 10 goals as an 18 and 19 year old... thats nothing to sneeze at. Pretty impressive. Get him a coaching staff that actually knows what theyre doing and youll be amazed at what lots of these young kids can do and how their games will progress. Winnipeg is looking much better then those tools in Atlanta. Evander Kane will score 35+ this year and Bogo will score 15. Mark my words.
You know nothing of what you speak. If Atlanta, Columbus, and Florida had developmental problems, then start naming their former prospects who became stars elsewhere. For that matter, start naming their former prospects who exceeded the level that they hit with those teams once they moved on.

I'll give you Columbus as a starting point. Rostislav Klesla was a second-pairing defenseman who was traded to Phoenix and played on the second and third pairing. Pascal Leclaire was a frequently injured starter who was traded to Ottawa and became a frequently injured backup. Nikolai Zherdev was a floater with freakish skill who was traded to New York and became a floater with freakish skill. Alex Picard was a frequent call-up who topped out on the third line who was traded to Phoenix and became an AHL player. Gilbert Brule was a third liner who was traded to Edmonton and became a third- and fourth-liner on a worse team.

Want Florida? Denis Shvidki was an AHL-level player who no one else wanted except the Russian league. Lukas Krajicek was a second-pairing defenseman who was traded to Vancouver and became a second-pairing defenseman. Petr Taticek was an AHL player who was traded to Pittsburgh and became an AHL player. Nathan Horton was a first/second-line player who was traded to Boston and became the same. Anthony Stewart was a middling player traded to Atlanta who had one good year before moving on, so the jury's still out on that one.

Speaking of Klesla, enjoy Bogosian...you'll see the same frustration and bizarre plays being made for as long as he's on your team.

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07-13-2011, 12:15 PM
  #61
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This goes quite a bit further with criticism than I would have gone, but I think it's a lot closer to the truth than the glowing reports that you'd find elsewhere.



The only comparisons between Bogosian and Pronger is that both played young, and both were drafted out of Peterborough. That's where the comparisons end.

When I saw Pronger in Peterborough, it was very obvious that he had phenomenal physical gifts and also made the plays that veterans and wise youngsters make. When I saw Pronger in Hartford, meandering around and looking lost, it was obvious that once his physical tools caught up with his mind, he was going to be a star. People lost their heads and declared Pronger a lost cause after two years because he wasn't (at that point) quick enough or mobile enough to be able to keep up with what his mind was telling him to do.

When I saw Bogosian in high school and Peterborough, I didn't get the same feeling. His greatest plays are those that involve the bare minimum of reaction on his part...a one-timer on the power play, an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone, and that's pretty much it. His positioning is awful, his reactions are crap, and his instincts are non-existent. It's not going to get better; he relied on physical tools to get him this far, and now when everyone has similar tools, he's being left behind because he cannot read and react.



I vehemently disagree. There are some things that are simply innate that cannot be taught. It can be instructed and improved, but it's not going to approach the same level as someone who has that innate gift. A scientist is unlikely to be able to conjure up rhymes as quickly as a rapper, and a poet is unlikely to have the mental mathematical capabilities of a statistician. A drunkard is unlikely to have the palate of a food critic, and I've gone far enough with this.

Defensive instincts, much like offensive instincts, are innate. Someone who lacks the capability to make the most basic reads and react accordingly is not long for the league if they lack physical skills; those who have the skills can stick around for years on the second and third pairing. Bogosian's best comparable is Rostislav Klesla, who also had a single-minded approach and a terrific work ethic. People will say that Klesla was "rushed" (not true), and that explains why he's never been anything more than a second-pairing defenseman. That's not the case; he lacks those instincts, and that's what's prevented him from becoming in 11 years what the physical tools would demonstrate.
I appreciate your insight as someone who watched both Pronger and Bogosian as youngsters and find your observations interesting. I was just trying to illustrate that young defencemen most often struggle with the NHL game in early years, especially when thrust into bigger roles than they are ready for on bad teams.

As for the defensive instincts point, I absolutely and totally disagree. I am a defenseman, I love that part of the game. I have spent years and years learning all I can about that part of the game. Reading, observing, getting coached. Defensive smarts and positioning are learned. As you get older and get more experience, you learn and grow. I've improved defensively year after year. Even though I have peaked physically, I continue to get better at reading plays, anticipating, and positioning myself to make the correct play. It has allowed me to continue to play with players far younger and more superior to me skill wise.

Bogosian can become far, far better in his own end, which will grow his game offensively as well.

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07-13-2011, 12:25 PM
  #62
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Horrible owners, GMs, coaching staff etc. all the way down the line it was an abomination of a franchise.
Bogosian has had strong mentors, but he has flat out refused to work with them. He went 100% against Torchetti, a very respected defense coach, last year. Zach Bogosian will NEVER be a good hockey player unless he cleans up his act and matures.

Also, neither Ramsay nor Dudley can be considered "horrible" in any way.


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07-13-2011, 12:31 PM
  #63
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The only "horrible coaching staff" Bogosian had was when Waddell took over behind the bench for a season. His other two coaches, Hartley and Ramsay were both very good coaches. Also, Atlanta only had two GM's. Only one of them (Waddell) was "horrible".

Bogosian has had strong mentors, but he has flat out refused to work with them. He went 100% against Torchetti, a very respected defense coach, last year. Zach Bogosian will NEVER be a good hockey player unless he cleans up his act and matures.
This.

It's no secret to anyone who has followed this team. Last year with Ramsay, multiple players improved multiple facets of their individual games from his tutelage. Yet Zach Bogosian got worse. He has been reported to not listen to his veteran teammates as well, Zach would be getting advice from his partner at the time (Hainsey) and simply shrugged off everything he was saying.

Many felt it was Hainsey's fault thinking he was coming down on the kid, but then time went on and we saw how Bogo's game got worse. Then the article with Torchetti came out and continued the trend.

The problem with Zach is Zach. Like CN said, he has the tools but he seriously needs to clean up his act.

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07-13-2011, 12:50 PM
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When I saw Bogosian in high school and Peterborough, I didn't get the same feeling. His greatest plays are those that involve the bare minimum of reaction on his part...a one-timer on the power play, an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone, and that's pretty much it. His positioning is awful, his reactions are crap, and his instincts are non-existent. It's not going to get better; he relied on physical tools to get him this far, and now when everyone has similar tools, he's being left behind because he cannot read and react.
As a Petes season ticket holder, I disagree with you, big time.

If you believe his greatest plays are those that involve the bare minimum of reaction on his part (as you state: a one-timer on the PP, an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone) I personally can't take your word here and truly question if you even watched Bogosian on a regular basis in junior because the decisions and plays he made offensively were those of a defenceman who oozed the smarts, talent and awareness to do so, not some decision that revolved around 'safe' or 'easy' or had 'little to no thinking' involved.

And I apologize, but again, you refer to Bogosian's positioning being awful in junior, reactions as crap, and instincts as non-exisent. If that is the case, I fail to see why he was drafted 3rd overall out of junior and labeled neck-and-neck with Doughty heading into the draft, and even after the draft. I watched him, and my opinion is night and day to yours. And since we're talking about the Zach Bogosian of junior, I can't believe how you're describing him, in my opinion it's the furthest from the truth.

In the 2008 Coaches poll, he tied for the OHL's top defensive defenceman, second in offensive defenceman, third in smartest player and third in hardest working player.

Bogosian, in junior, had all the elements, smarts, tools and physical prowess. He was aware and sound in taking care of his own end and defensive responsibilities, offensive responsibilities and physically mature. He loved rushing the puck up ice, in which he could do effortlessly and smoothly because he had the talent and smarts to do so. He could read a play very well both offensively and defensively, and make one happen just as easily. In junior and coming out of junior, Zach Bogosian was the whole package. The one flaw I will say, was he could get caught out of position the odd time. But let's be serious, given his style of play, young age, etc.. that is normal. And as the great E.J. McGuire so soundly put it regarding the flaw, and I quote, "He (Zach Bogosian) is getting smarter and smarter with every progression". The natural leadership, physical tools in both his body stature and style of play, offensively gifted, defensively responsible and aware, he did it all, literally. One of the best traits was how heads up he was, how aware he was on the ice. He was 100% focused and in the game at all times. Many of this is why the question was raised right up to the draft, after the draft and through and after the 2008-2009 season, Drew Doughty or Zach Bogosian?

To this day I am very surprised to see how Zach has turned out thus far in the NHL. Almost to the point where I can't believe it. I am looking so forward to watching Bogosian to form my own opinions of him, to see his progression/regression since leaving junior, to see him with a new organization and coaching staff, under new guidance. Something has evidently went off the tracks with the Zach Bogosian of today, and the Zach Bogosian who played in junior and was drafted 3rd overall.

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07-13-2011, 01:12 PM
  #65
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As a Petes season ticket holder, I disagree with you, big time.

If you believe his greatest plays are those that involve the bare minimum of reaction on his part (as you state: a one-timer on the PP, an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone) I personally can't take your word here and truly question if you even watched Bogosian on a regular basis in junior because the decisions and plays he made offensively were those of a defenceman who oozed the smarts, talent and awareness to do so, not some decision that revolved around 'safe' or 'easy' or had 'little to no thinking' involved.

And I apologize, but again, you refer to Bogosian's positioning being awful in junior, reactions as crap, and instincts as non-exisent. If that is the case, I fail to see why he was drafted 3rd overall out of junior and labeled neck-and-neck with Doughty heading into the draft, and even after the draft. I watched him, and my opinion is night and day to yours. And since we're talking about the Zach Bogosian of junior, I can't believe how you're describing him, in my opinion it's the furthest from the truth.

In the 2008 Coaches poll, he tied for the OHL's top defensive defenceman, second in offensive defenceman, third in smartest player and third in hardest working player.

Bogosian, in junior, had all the elements, smarts, tools and physical prowess. He was aware and sound in taking care of his own end and defensive responsibilities, offensive responsibilities and physically mature. He loved rushing the puck up ice, in which he could do effortlessly and smoothly because he had the talent and smarts to do so. He could read a play very well both offensively and defensively, and make one happen just as easily. In junior and coming out of junior, Zach Bogosian was the whole package. The one flaw I will say, was he could get caught out of position the odd time. But let's be serious, given his style of play, young age, etc.. that is normal. And as the great E.J. McGuire so soundly put it regarding the flaw, and I quote, "He (Zach Bogosian) is getting smarter and smarter with every progression". The natural leadership, physical tools in both his body stature and style of play, offensively gifted, defensively responsible and aware, he did it all, literally. One of the best traits was how heads up he was, how aware he was on the ice. He was 100% focused and in the game at all times. Many of this is why the question was raised right up to the draft, after the draft and through and after the 2008-2009 season, Drew Doughty or Zach Bogosian?

To this day I am very surprised to see how Zach has turned out thus far in the NHL. Almost to the point where I can't believe it. I am looking so forward to watching Bogosian to form my own opinions of him, to see his progression/regression since leaving junior, to see him with a new organization and coaching staff, under new guidance. Something has evidently went off the tracks with the Zach Bogosian of today, and the Zach Bogosian who played in junior and was drafted 3rd overall.
Thanks for the different perspective, Guerzy. Having not watched Bogo in juniors, I couldn't really comment on his game then. I did find the posters assessment of the defensive side of hockey to be critically flawed IMHO.

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07-13-2011, 01:16 PM
  #66
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Thanks for the different perspective, Guerzy. Having not watched Bogo in juniors, I couldn't really comment on his game then. I did find the posters assessment of the defensive side of hockey to be critically flawed IMHO.
I mean, I know everyone has an opinion which by all means I respect, but i'm still shaking my head over the assessment of Bogosian in junior. I'm the last guy you'll find that is a homer or bias, I call a spade a spade whether it's my own teams player or not. I just fail on every level to understand and comprehend his description of Bogosian in junior because what he described may be what he is today, but it certainly, and I would say it until my very last breath, was not the Zach Bogosian of junior and the 3rd overall pick in '08.

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07-13-2011, 01:27 PM
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And while I genuinely feel for the supporters from Atlanta, the more I learn about the Atlanta Spirit Group, the more I think were I in that position, it’d almost be a blessing to have the team owned and operated by a firm like True North. It seems like night and day in terms of how they go about their business.
I don't know about a "blessing," not for us Thrasher fans anyway, but maybe for some of the guys. I have no doubts that their professional experiences with their new bosses will be a breath of fresh air. Now if TSNE wants to bless me with some season tickets and travel allowances,

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07-13-2011, 01:33 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
I mean, I know everyone has an opinion which by all means I respect, but i'm still shaking my head over the assessment of Bogosian in junior. I'm the last guy you'll find that is a homer or bias, I call a spade a spade whether it's my own teams player or not. I just fail on every level to understand and comprehend his description of Bogosian in junior because what he described may be what he is today, but it certainly, and I would say it until my very last breath, was not the Zach Bogosian of junior and the 3rd overall pick in '08.
I can't speak for this poster in particular but I have seen where guys get a hate on for a certain player and it seems to infect everything about that player in their mind.

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07-13-2011, 01:37 PM
  #69
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I have a hate for Bogosian because he has all this god given talent and acts like an immature child who refuses to listen to people smarter than him.

Plain and simple.

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07-13-2011, 02:56 PM
  #70
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Zach has played a lot of games hurt, for long stretches of a time too. At one point he played like half a season with a wrist injury and should not have been out on the ice. I think he only scored one goal in that stretch. What was strange is that Zach said he didn't understand why the coaches let him continue to play. Especially since they've had no problem sitting Little, Kane, and Burmistrov for injuries and did not rush them back into the lineup.

It should be noted that Zach was part of the Russian clique in Atlanta with Kozlov, Kovy, Antropov, and Afinogenov for that year and hung out with them. Kozlov and Kovalchuk are notorious for playing through injuries and hiding them from the trainers. Considering that Zach has already missed some substantial time for injuries, he's probably prone to hide new ones and is not forthcoming with this coaches.

He will have to change this is as a Jet.

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07-13-2011, 03:52 PM
  #71
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LOL. Now that Zach is with a REAL organization that will be properly run he will show how good he can be. He was thrown to the Wolves as the main shutdown D-Man and didnt respond well to that. Why? BECAUSE THAT HAS NEVER BEEN HIS MAIN ROLE ANYWHERE HE HAS PLAYED! He led his junior team in scoring for a reason. Because he has skill. Those morons in Atlanta clearly didnt know that...The Atlanta Thrashers always were a mickey mouse organization. Horrible owners, GMs, coaching staff etc. all the way down the line it was an abomination of a franchise. Why do you think teams like Atlanta, Columbus, Florida always have problems developing their young players? Because the organizations are horrible. The kids have no one there to show them the way. They rush them into crappy teams where their careers basically go to hell. I sure hope it isnt to late for Bogo because he has all the tools to be a star in this league. He did score 9 and 10 goals as an 18 and 19 year old... thats nothing to sneeze at. Pretty impressive. Get him a coaching staff that actually knows what theyre doing and youll be amazed at what lots of these young kids can do and how their games will progress. Winnipeg is looking much better then those tools in Atlanta. Evander Kane will score 35+ this year and Bogo will score 15. Mark my words.
I don't really think there is anything insulting in this post at all. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

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07-13-2011, 04:41 PM
  #72
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I appreciate your insight as someone who watched both Pronger and Bogosian as youngsters and find your observations interesting. I was just trying to illustrate that young defencemen most often struggle with the NHL game in early years, especially when thrust into bigger roles than they are ready for on bad teams.

As for the defensive instincts point, I absolutely and totally disagree. I am a defenseman, I love that part of the game. I have spent years and years learning all I can about that part of the game. Reading, observing, getting coached. Defensive smarts and positioning are learned. As you get older and get more experience, you learn and grow. I've improved defensively year after year. Even though I have peaked physically, I continue to get better at reading plays, anticipating, and positioning myself to make the correct play. It has allowed me to continue to play with players far younger and more superior to me skill wise.

Bogosian can become far, far better in his own end, which will grow his game offensively as well.
The mental and otherwise intangible aspect can certainly be improved upon, but I'd certainly say there's a maximum capacity that won't be exceeded. I remember Chris Joseph in his 30s still getting turned around in the vicinity of the net on a regular basis, which is something that's normally programmed out of someone in midget.

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As a Petes season ticket holder, I disagree with you, big time.

If you believe his greatest plays are those that involve the bare minimum of reaction on his part (as you state: a one-timer on the PP, an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone) I personally can't take your word here and truly question if you even watched Bogosian on a regular basis in junior because the decisions and plays he made offensively were those of a defenceman who oozed the smarts, talent and awareness to do so, not some decision that revolved around 'safe' or 'easy' or had 'little to no thinking' involved.

And I apologize, but again, you refer to Bogosian's positioning being awful in junior, reactions as crap, and instincts as non-exisent. If that is the case, I fail to see why he was drafted 3rd overall out of junior and labeled neck-and-neck with Doughty heading into the draft, and even after the draft. I watched him, and my opinion is night and day to yours. And since we're talking about the Zach Bogosian of junior, I can't believe how you're describing him, in my opinion it's the furthest from the truth.

In the 2008 Coaches poll, he tied for the OHL's top defensive defenceman, second in offensive defenceman, third in smartest player and third in hardest working player.

Bogosian, in junior, had all the elements, smarts, tools and physical prowess. He was aware and sound in taking care of his own end and defensive responsibilities, offensive responsibilities and physically mature. He loved rushing the puck up ice, in which he could do effortlessly and smoothly because he had the talent and smarts to do so. He could read a play very well both offensively and defensively, and make one happen just as easily. In junior and coming out of junior, Zach Bogosian was the whole package. The one flaw I will say, was he could get caught out of position the odd time. But let's be serious, given his style of play, young age, etc.. that is normal. And as the great E.J. McGuire so soundly put it regarding the flaw, and I quote, "He (Zach Bogosian) is getting smarter and smarter with every progression". The natural leadership, physical tools in both his body stature and style of play, offensively gifted, defensively responsible and aware, he did it all, literally. One of the best traits was how heads up he was, how aware he was on the ice. He was 100% focused and in the game at all times. Many of this is why the question was raised right up to the draft, after the draft and through and after the 2008-2009 season, Drew Doughty or Zach Bogosian?

To this day I am very surprised to see how Zach has turned out thus far in the NHL. Almost to the point where I can't believe it. I am looking so forward to watching Bogosian to form my own opinions of him, to see his progression/regression since leaving junior, to see him with a new organization and coaching staff, under new guidance. Something has evidently went off the tracks with the Zach Bogosian of today, and the Zach Bogosian who played in junior and was drafted 3rd overall.
I certainly appreciate your candor and welcome the opposing opinion. In 2007-08, I saw Bogosian play 12 times (in addition to Peterborough two more times when he was out of the lineup), as the Petes had a lot of young players who were being watched. The primary targets for that year were Bogosian, Missiaen, and Harnden. Those 14 games were split between Peterborough and other OHL cities, so I wasn't always around Petes fans. I remember the goal he had against....I think it was Barrie, but I might be getting that detail wrong. The Petes were on the power play, and he went end-to-end and buried a wraparound. It was a thing of beauty, since I think he lost the puck and regained possession in stride.

His offensive instincts have never really been in question, but one of the things that always looked at is how well a player's game is likely to transition to the next level, and whether there are any ripples likely to take place as a result. I have an enormous amount of respect for E.J. McGuire, but we disagreed on Bogosian. He's been right on guys I've been wrong about, and vice versa. My opinion was that, in the absence of a sense of that controlled aggression as it relates to the transition game, Bogosian would be forced to completely alter the way that the rest of the team on the ice played to cover for him. I didn't think his defensive game would ever develop enough to let him freewheel on offense. If it did, he would be dominant and able to excel at both ends of the ice. If it didn't, it would negate his offense because he'd end up being shackled in his own end to pre-emptively cover for his own lack of defensive ability.

That said, I don't go around hoping that my views and opinions are validated; I hate seeing someone highly touted end up falling short of expectations. Don't think that I'm hoping for failure on Bogosian's part so I can shout about how right I am; I hope I am wrong. I just don't think I am.

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07-13-2011, 04:57 PM
  #73
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I say lets see what Bogosian can do. I am excited to watch him play.

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07-13-2011, 05:26 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
I certainly appreciate your candor and welcome the opposing opinion. In 2007-08, I saw Bogosian play 12 times (in addition to Peterborough two more times when he was out of the lineup), as the Petes had a lot of young players who were being watched. The primary targets for that year were Bogosian, Missiaen, and Harnden. Those 14 games were split between Peterborough and other OHL cities, so I wasn't always around Petes fans. I remember the goal he had against....I think it was Barrie, but I might be getting that detail wrong. The Petes were on the power play, and he went end-to-end and buried a wraparound. It was a thing of beauty, since I think he lost the puck and regained possession in stride.

His offensive instincts have never really been in question, but one of the things that always looked at is how well a player's game is likely to transition to the next level, and whether there are any ripples likely to take place as a result. I have an enormous amount of respect for E.J. McGuire, but we disagreed on Bogosian. He's been right on guys I've been wrong about, and vice versa. My opinion was that, in the absence of a sense of that controlled aggression as it relates to the transition game, Bogosian would be forced to completely alter the way that the rest of the team on the ice played to cover for him. I didn't think his defensive game would ever develop enough to let him freewheel on offense. If it did, he would be dominant and able to excel at both ends of the ice. If it didn't, it would negate his offense because he'd end up being shackled in his own end to pre-emptively cover for his own lack of defensive ability.

That said, I don't go around hoping that my views and opinions are validated; I hate seeing someone highly touted end up falling short of expectations. Don't think that I'm hoping for failure on Bogosian's part so I can shout about how right I am; I hope I am wrong. I just don't think I am.
I think this is the goal you were talking about:

Have you ever watched Byfuglien play defense? How would you compare Bogosian and Byfuglien's skill sets?

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07-13-2011, 09:49 PM
  #75
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Given Winnipeg's thinness at RW, how would Bogosian look in there? With forwards, you do allow for a bit less defensive skill than a defenseman, which "solves" one of the main complaints about him. We could always use a good RW that can skate+score like that Youtube clip.

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