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Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part III

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Old
07-13-2011, 10:50 PM
  #76
Palinka
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Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
I can't speak for this poster in particular but I have seen where guys get a hate on for a certain player and it seems to infect everything about that player in their mind.
(I missed this post earlier)

The opposite is actually true in my case. I think that personal feelings about a player tend to obscure being able to assess the overall game, although I also believe that it should at least be considered to some extent. The aforementioned Rostislav Klesla would get a huge bonus for work ethic and determination, but I don't know how much value him being a really nice guy is. I learned that lesson with Petr Taticek, who's an incredibly nice guy and was a top-10 pick. I let what I knew about his personality cloud my judgment, and that's the last time I've made that mistake.

Besides, there are far too many guys who change dramatically from age 16-18 to 24-25. Teetotalers become alcoholics, and vice versa. Womanizers find the right girl and settle down, farm boys can lose their heads in a large city, and there's certainly going to be personality clashes with other teammates or coaches. It would be unfair to assess someone's life off what they were like at age 17, particularly if it is (as it often is) filtered through secondhand or thirdhand sources or comes from inherently annoying interactions (asking for autographs).

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Originally Posted by atl thrasher344 View Post
I think this is the goal you were talking about:

Have you ever watched Byfuglien play defense? How would you compare Bogosian and Byfuglien's skill sets?
That's the goal!

As for Byfuglien playing defense, not to any real extent. I'm originally from Ohio, and by the time I ended up overseas last summer, I'd had to junk my previous two cars. Neither made it 10 years, but both had close to 300,000 miles on them from running the Midwest and OHL gamut, with the occasional venture into the prairies or Quebec. By the time I saw Byfuglien on a more regular basis (in the NHL), he'd been switched to forward, and I didn't see enough of him last year. Honestly, I'm not terribly likely to do so either; once someone hits 25 and has seen the NHL, my interest in watching except on a strictly personal level is non-existent. That means I'd have a remote on my chest instead of a notepad and pen.

I shudder to think at how many miles I've driven, but any trucker would just laugh at me. (That's happened before, too.)

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07-13-2011, 10:55 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by knorthern knight View Post
Given Winnipeg's thinness at RW, how would Bogosian look in there? With forwards, you do allow for a bit less defensive skill than a defenseman, which "solves" one of the main complaints about him. We could always use a good RW that can skate+score like that Youtube clip.
I think you have an interesting idea. With the exception of Byfuglien, the last player I can think of having success with a mid-career position change was Wendel Clark, and obviously we're going back 25 years with that. That's not to say that it can't be done, but most teams that are conscientious about asset management tend to shy away from doing something that, even if it's truly not, is often perceived as drastic.

I'd throw my hat into the ring on this idea.

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07-13-2011, 11:18 PM
  #78
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I think you have an interesting idea. With the exception of Byfuglien, the last player I can think of having success with a mid-career position change was Wendel Clark, and obviously we're going back 25 years with that. That's not to say that it can't be done, but most teams that are conscientious about asset management tend to shy away from doing something that, even if it's truly not, is often perceived as drastic.

I'd throw my hat into the ring on this idea.
Phil Housley played forward for Washington and Calgary (second stint), and defence just about everywhere else. Also, didn't Tkachuk became a centre later in his career.

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07-13-2011, 11:33 PM
  #79
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there is some media types speculating that the jets maybe looking at moving him to either the coyotes or the oilers

it was suggested that the oilers maybe offering Sam Gagner + either MPS or Omark and Petry

from Phoenix the suggestion that Kyle Turris, Mikkel Boedker or Martin Hanzal being in play

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07-13-2011, 11:47 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
there is some media types speculating that the jets maybe looking at moving him to either the coyotes or the oilers

it was suggested that the oilers maybe offering Sam Gagner + either MPS or Omark and Petry

from Phoenix the suggestion that Kyle Turris, Mikkel Boedker or Martin Hanzal being in play
Ooh, it's going to be tough whenever there is speculation between the Coyotes and Jets. I won't know who I want to win the trade!

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07-14-2011, 01:37 AM
  #81
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Perhaps a better question might be: what amount of points and +- would he need this year to show that he's back on track?

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07-14-2011, 03:22 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
there is some media types speculating that the jets maybe looking at moving him to either the coyotes or the oilers

it was suggested that the oilers maybe offering Sam Gagner + either MPS or Omark and Petry

from Phoenix the suggestion that Kyle Turris, Mikkel Boedker or Martin Hanzal being in play
The absolute last thing the Coyotes need is a defenseman though. They are terribly weak at the center position so trading Turris or Hanzal is a non starter. Not good trade partners for Bogosian because Yandle OEL and Gormley along with others like Summers, Stone, Goncharov and Murphy, Defense is the position they are strongest in.

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07-14-2011, 09:41 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
there is some media types speculating that the jets maybe looking at moving him to either the coyotes or the oilers

it was suggested that the oilers maybe offering Sam Gagner + either MPS or Omark and Petry

from Phoenix the suggestion that Kyle Turris, Mikkel Boedker or Martin Hanzal being in play
I have to agree with Untouchable regarding Phoenix as I don't see how they would need another defenseman at the cost of a Center when they have a hole at center.

Not that it means anything, and Bogo certainly could be traded tomorrow, but Chevy did come out and give him a vote of confidence.

Regarding the Oilers rumor above, I have maintained that I didn't want to trade Bogo, and would like to see him developed. That being said, it would be quite hilarious if a deal with the Oilers returned Gagner, MPS, and Petry considering most Oiler fans here wouldn't even trade Gagner straight up, and would cry if they traded MPS straight up for Bogo. I would think a Gagner, MPS, Petry deal would crash the forums.

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07-14-2011, 09:41 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
The mental and otherwise intangible aspect can certainly be improved upon, but I'd certainly say there's a maximum capacity that won't be exceeded. I remember Chris Joseph in his 30s still getting turned around in the vicinity of the net on a regular basis, which is something that's normally programmed out of someone in midget.



I certainly appreciate your candor and welcome the opposing opinion. In 2007-08, I saw Bogosian play 12 times (in addition to Peterborough two more times when he was out of the lineup), as the Petes had a lot of young players who were being watched. The primary targets for that year were Bogosian, Missiaen, and Harnden. Those 14 games were split between Peterborough and other OHL cities, so I wasn't always around Petes fans. I remember the goal he had against....I think it was Barrie, but I might be getting that detail wrong. The Petes were on the power play, and he went end-to-end and buried a wraparound. It was a thing of beauty, since I think he lost the puck and regained possession in stride.

His offensive instincts have never really been in question, but one of the things that always looked at is how well a player's game is likely to transition to the next level, and whether there are any ripples likely to take place as a result. I have an enormous amount of respect for E.J. McGuire, but we disagreed on Bogosian. He's been right on guys I've been wrong about, and vice versa. My opinion was that, in the absence of a sense of that controlled aggression as it relates to the transition game, Bogosian would be forced to completely alter the way that the rest of the team on the ice played to cover for him. I didn't think his defensive game would ever develop enough to let him freewheel on offense. If it did, he would be dominant and able to excel at both ends of the ice. If it didn't, it would negate his offense because he'd end up being shackled in his own end to pre-emptively cover for his own lack of defensive ability.

That said, I don't go around hoping that my views and opinions are validated; I hate seeing someone highly touted end up falling short of expectations. Don't think that I'm hoping for failure on Bogosian's part so I can shout about how right I am; I hope I am wrong. I just don't think I am.
I appreciate and respect your opinions, but I still feel very, very lost and confused as to how you described Zach Bogosian as a junior hockey player. Very night and day in terms of you saying his greatest plays were those that involved the bare minimum of reaction, being a one-timer on the PP, or an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone... and that's pretty much it. It boggles my mind to read these comments because as someone who watched Zach in junior (and again, I am not a homer and i'll call a spade a spade with the players or team I watch) he was everything but what you've described here.

And to hear one say his positioning was awful, his reactions were crap, and his instincts were non-existent... again, reading these comments leave me very, very confused. This was not Zach Bogosian of junior, this was not Zach Bogosian who was drafted 3rd overall, this was not Zach Bogosian who even at the end of their rookie seasons in 2008-2009, was neck and neck compared and by many considered better than Drew Doughty.

I've been a long time OHL guy who considers my evaluating of 15-21 year olds to be pretty good as a fan in the stands, but with that being said, please don't take that as me pounding my chest, floating my own boat or me thinking my opinions and views hold more water than yours or anyone else, that's not my intention.

My intentions here aren't to call you out, so please don't take it that way. I just feel that there is some misconceptions being stated here. Now again, no disrespect to you. Perhaps this is how you view it, and I can respect that and we'll politely agree to disagree. Zach Bogosian may not turn out to be what was expected of him at the NHL level, i'm not saying he will. But I can say with confidence the tools and game he possessed in junior appeared 'Chris Pronger'-like worthy. I hate when people make the Chris Pronger comparison, because in most cases it isn't true, but this comparison was promising. When Bogosian left junior, the thought of him being a 26-28 year old defenceman in the NHL was so damn intriguing to think about, because it held so much truth and promise.


Last edited by Guerzy: 07-14-2011 at 09:53 AM.
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Old
07-14-2011, 10:22 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
I appreciate and respect your opinions, but I still feel very, very lost and confused as to how you described Zach Bogosian as a junior hockey player. Very night and day in terms of you saying his greatest plays were those that involved the bare minimum of reaction, being a one-timer on the PP, or an outlet pass to the next man from the defensive zone... and that's pretty much it. It boggles my mind to read these comments because as someone who watched Zach in junior (and again, I am not a homer and i'll call a spade a spade with the players or team I watch) he was everything but what you've described here.

And to hear one say his positioning was awful, his reactions were crap, and his instincts were non-existent... again, reading these comments leave me very, very confused. This was not Zach Bogosian of junior, this was not Zach Bogosian who was drafted 3rd overall, this was not Zach Bogosian who even at the end of their rookie seasons in 2008-2009, was neck and neck compared and by many considered better than Drew Doughty.

I've been a long time OHL guy who considers my evaluating of 15-21 year olds to be pretty good as a fan in the stands, but with that being said, please don't take that as me pounding my chest, floating my own boat or me thinking my opinions and views hold more water than yours or anyone else, that's not my intention.

My intentions here aren't to call you out, so please don't take it that way. I just feel that there is some misconceptions being stated here. Now again, no disrespect to you. Perhaps this is how you view it, and I can respect that and we'll politely agree to disagree. Zach Bogosian may not turn out to be what was expected of him at the NHL level, i'm not saying he will. But I can say with confidence the tools and game he possessed in junior appeared 'Chris Pronger'-like worthy. I hate when people make the Chris Pronger comparison, because in most cases it isn't true, but this comparison was promising. When Bogosian left junior, the thought of him being a 26-28 year old defenceman in the NHL was so damn intriguing to think about, because it held so much truth and promise.
Good post. There is a reason the kid was drafted so early. Perhaps he may not have met some lofty expectations as of yet but the fact of the matter is that defense is the most difficult position for a young player to grasp at the pro level. With regard to young d-men, Drew Doughty is the exception and not the rule. It is far too early to give up on this young player.

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07-15-2011, 10:34 AM
  #86
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I would have to think that Alzner signing @ 1.285 will have some sort of affect on our signing of Bogosian. It should be a pretty good measuring stick.

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07-16-2011, 05:01 PM
  #87
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Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part III

Part two is close to 1k.

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07-16-2011, 05:08 PM
  #88
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The person that tweeted this has been pretty accurate when it comes to the Oilers, broke a lot of the Oilers trades and signings before they happened. So take it for what it's worth. I was just curious, would you Jets fans do this trade? Personally, as an Oilers fan I wouldn't because Petry is the deal breaker. I'm just curious what you Jets fans think?




I'd do this deal in a heartbeat. Bogo is great but I've been following the Oilers for years. Petry is a SOLID Dman. Gagner would be able to help out a lot. If this went down, I'd like to see Gagner on the wing.

Oh, and did I mention Sam Gagner has been my favourite player since he was drafted? So yeah... Slight bias.

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07-16-2011, 05:09 PM
  #89
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Not a fan of Gagner at all. Borderline 2nd line player that isn't good defensively; I don't like Bogosian, but if Gagner's the centerpiece, no deal.

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07-16-2011, 05:23 PM
  #90
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Not a fan of Gagner at all. Borderline 2nd line player that isn't good defensively; I don't like Bogosian, but if Gagner's the centerpiece, no deal.
If you don't mind, i'd like to hear your full assesement of Bogosian(what you see as his strengths, weaknesses, projections, etc.)?

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07-16-2011, 07:01 PM
  #91
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If you don't mind, i'd like to hear your full assesement of Bogosian(what you see as his strengths, weaknesses, projections, etc.)?
From what I've seen:

Strengths: Most of his physical assets are excellent. Good size, good strength, heavy shot. All The tools.

Weakness: No hockey IQ to speak of. Not a smart player; I don't like players that have the tools but no toolbox.

Projection: If he can live up to his skills; Brent Burns-like. If not, a poverty-stricken man's Phaneuf.

I'm definitely going to re-watch some Thrashers games with NHL Vault tonight to jog my memory; but I was not impressed with what I saw.

Btw: McCardle re-signed.

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07-16-2011, 07:36 PM
  #92
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Not a fan of Gagner at all. Borderline 2nd line player that isn't good defensively; I don't like Bogosian, but if Gagner's the centerpiece, no deal.
Well to be fair, he's an undersized 21 year old center who was put on a line with 2 other rookies in MPS and Omark. On the worst team in the league. Not a lot of sheltering for a young player there.

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07-16-2011, 08:09 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
From what I've seen:

Strengths: Most of his physical assets are excellent. Good size, good strength, heavy shot. All The tools.

Weakness: No hockey IQ to speak of. Not a smart player; I don't like players that have the tools but no toolbox.

Projection: If he can live up to his skills; Brent Burns-like. If not, a poverty-stricken man's Phaneuf.

I'm definitely going to re-watch some Thrashers games with NHL Vault tonight to jog my memory; but I was not impressed with what I saw.

Btw: McCardle re-signed.
Ok. Things most others have noticed as well. He's an excellant skater if you haven't noticed yet. I remember once last year, Ovechkin came down the left side against Bogosian and cut across the middle after he entered the zone. Well, Bogosian was able to stay with him the whole way. Didn't have to turn at all. His best ability is his skating.

The one thing i've been really thinking a lot about is Bogosian's hockey smarts. I don't think it's as bad as some may think. He's the type of kid that will get caught up over-thinking a play and it will cause him to hesitate(like you wouldn't believe). He was definitely lacking confidence for most of last year. He seemed unsure of himself at times. I think with the right teacher, his decision making will improve drastically. He just has to quit thinking too much and just react and go off his instincts(as long as his instincts are good.lol).

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07-16-2011, 09:34 PM
  #94
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I would LOVE to dump Bogosian and pick up Gagner. That would be awesome.

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07-16-2011, 09:55 PM
  #95
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No interest in Gagner at all. Too small and very inconsistent. Do not want.

Would much rather have Bogosian and let Noel and Huddy try to develop him.

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07-16-2011, 11:06 PM
  #96
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Maxwell re-signed as per his twitter

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Signed on with the Jets yesterday, can't wait to get things going in Winnipeg!

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07-16-2011, 11:41 PM
  #97
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Maxwell re-signed as per his twitter

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Cap geek shows a two-way deal for a cap hit of $715, 000. Good depth signing, in my opinion.

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07-17-2011, 02:01 AM
  #98
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Like I said in the previous thread--Looks like the Jets are dangling Bogo to a few teams

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07-17-2011, 02:50 AM
  #99
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Like I said in the previous thread--Looks like the Jets are dangling Bogo to a few teams
I don't mind the thought of trading Bogo. I do think he will develop in to a good player though so Winnipeg better get some good return if they trade him.

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07-17-2011, 04:15 AM
  #100
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Bogo for Gagner? Excuse me... I'm going to be sick.

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