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Semin to Detroit is now an E4

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Old
07-17-2011, 12:57 AM
  #151
winger7020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Perhaps because Semin got more PK time on a team with a better PK, had significantly more takeaways, and was on the ice for roughly 30% fewer even-strength goals per game despite playing more minutes per game?
Where are you getting your information.. Filppula is definitely a primary pker. He gets more ice time and less pk time. The wings just have an awesome pk with Darren Helm/Patty Eaves. Before we had those guys Filppula was our number 1 pk.

Also as far as the pk is concerned last year was the only year where you pk was significantly better than ours...

10'11 season wash # 2 det # 17
09'10 season wash # 25 det # 10
08'09 season wash #17 det # 25
07'08 season wash # 25 det # 8
06'07 season wash #23 det # 6
05'06 season wash # 28 det #3
03'04 season wash # 26 det #1

As you can see detroit is consistently one of the best pk teams in the league....


Last edited by winger7020: 07-17-2011 at 01:07 AM. Reason: pk stats...
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Old
07-17-2011, 12:59 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
Since he's only under 1 year, I'd take away the prospect from the table, comes to think of it, Filppula + 1st is good enough to get it done, Flip is very underrated and the only major thing he lacks is putting up big numbers, he'a already a 40-50 point player, if he was a 70 point player people would never be throwing him in proposals like this.
if you added 30 points to every player they wouldn't be considered for the trades they are.

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07-17-2011, 01:01 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
He seems like the sort of guy who should be hard to over-rate. He excels in no area of the game, but is pretty well rounded and has few glaring weaknesses. He is a perfectly solid 3rd liner who can fill 2nd line duty in a pinch. He's the sort of guy who you plug in behind a talented group of star forwards and he can be pretty useful. How that guy becomes the centerpiece of a deal with another contending team for a 40-goal scorer who the Wings would IMMEDIATELY slot onto their 1st line next to Datsyuk, I really don't understand.

That said, I can't tell if these people talking up Filppula (which I assume is just a vocal minority) really over-rate his talent, or just feel like other teams should feel fortunate to take the Wings' spare parts because it's a spare part coming from the best machine in hockey. There's a pretty clear "you should feel honored to shovel our $h!t" vibe coming from this thread.
We're not overrating his talent trust me, watch this video, the guy's talent is more than just a 3rd liner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkz7XnvntLQ

It's like what the other poster said, because he has all this talent and a lot of times he looks like a Zetterberg out there, so we except him to put up those numbers, that's in fact the only thing he lacks, if he put up 70 points on regular basis people would be saying Semin for Filppula straight up is a very fair value.

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07-17-2011, 01:01 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
I'm not wrong, for the record, this is the first year that Semin had more PK time than Filppula, the 3 years prior to that Filppula always had more, it's only last year with the rise of guys like Helm, Eaves, and Miller in our PK that his K time (Along with Datsyuk and Zetterberg) decreased, more importantly, you might wanna go check how many PK minutes Semin played in the playoffs as compared to Filppula, yea, he's the better defensive player alright

Look, Semin clearly is better and has a higher value, I'm not denying that at all, I'm just saying that his contract makes him worth not more than Filppula and a 1st, that's all.
The one who a few posts ago talked about holding some players off the PK to gain offensive advantage is now quoting the SH times? For the record, I'm not really a huge fan of the PK time argument, because I recognize that Semin wasn't logging a ton of minutes shorthanded either. It's more the "fewer goals allowed with 30% more ice time" argument that I'm interested in. Or the "tons more takeaways" argument.

Semin as a PK player is a relatively new revelation, as it was in the 09-10 season that he began logging more PK time, and his even "+/-" shorthanded (something like 3 or 4 goals allowed on the PK all year while Semin was on the ice, and 3 or 4 shorthanded goals directly attributed to him in the same span) justified it. Maybe his role increases this year, I don't know, but those don't scream "lazy" or "defensively inept" to me, and his stickwork is magic. Honestly, where Semin is concerned, I would be surprised if there are 20 forwards in the league that can shark the puck from an opposing player like he can.

The only issue has been consistency.

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07-17-2011, 01:08 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFN View Post
The one who a few posts ago talked about holding some players off the PK to gain offensive advantage is now quoting the SH times? For the record, I'm not really a huge fan of the PK time argument, because I recognize that Semin wasn't logging a ton of minutes shorthanded either. It's more the "fewer goals allowed with 30% more ice time" argument that I'm interested in. Or the "tons more takeaways" argument.

Semin as a PK player is a relatively new revelation, as it was in the 09-10 season that he began logging more PK time, and his even "+/-" shorthanded (something like 3 or 4 goals allowed on the PK all year while Semin was on the ice, and 3 or 4 shorthanded goals directly attributed to him in the same span) justified it. Maybe his role increases this year, I don't know, but those don't scream "lazy" or "defensively inept" to me, and his stickwork is magic. Honestly, where Semin is concerned, I would be surprised if there are 20 forwards in the league that can shark the puck from an opposing player like he can.
I'm actually not a fan of stats like that because they don't tell the whole story, I just brought up some stats to counter argument, in reality they don't tell much, the real fact is that Semin is a top line 40 goal player that might not be bad defensively, Filppula is a two-way second line center that's plays exceptional defense and average offense, Semin is clearly worth more as he's the better player easily, but taking everything into account (Contract and the players involved), he's not worth more than Filppula + 1st, I'm not saying that's what you want, I'm just telling you his current fair value.

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07-17-2011, 01:31 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Birko19 View Post
I'm actually not a fan of stats like that because they don't tell the whole story, I just brought up some stats to counter argument, in reality they don't tell much, the real fact is that Semin is a top line 40 goal player that might not be bad defensively, Filppula is a two-way second line center that's plays exceptional defense and average offense, Semin is clearly worth more as he's the better player easily, but taking everything into account (Contract and the players involved), he's not worth more than Filppula + 1st, I'm not saying that's what you want, I'm just telling you his current fair value.
"Might not be" pretty much tells the whole story.

And I get the whole value thing, but I believe (correct me if I'm mistaken) that all I've really been doing is telling you, in turn, why this trade doesn't interest Washington, because Filppula doesn't upgrade the top 6.

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07-17-2011, 01:34 AM
  #157
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My dog taking a crap is now a E5
Also hearing unicorns going to the bathroom is a E6

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07-17-2011, 02:26 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Though I do admit the thought of Datsyuk and Semin on the same line scares me.
I think it would scare everyone. And rightfully so. Semin would pot forty every year for the next five years at least. Fifty a year wouldn't be ridiculous once or twice even

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07-17-2011, 02:56 AM
  #159
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As a Shark's fan I hope this rumor turns out to be false.

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07-17-2011, 03:11 AM
  #160
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One of the 10 most talented players in the world today going to Detroit sounds like a bad idea to me as a Sharks fan. Hopefully it doesn't happen.

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07-17-2011, 05:29 AM
  #161
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Keep Filp and put him on Datsyuk's wing like in the playoffs.. they play great together and his defense is better than Semin's. Center is deep enough now they can do that. Datsyuk, Zetts, Abby and Helm down the middle.

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07-17-2011, 08:51 AM
  #162
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Flips production is on par with most 'second line' centers in the league. Add that he's good, responsible two way player(yes, better than Semin defensively) and he's a solid guy. Usually always fourth in forwards in TOI/Game, and no, he doesn't get a bunch of PP time, like one of the Caps homers said. Take aways are also not the deciding factor in what makes a player good defensively.

Also, why use LGW as a source for what Wings fans here think, considering it's a Wings fan only forum? Obviously you're going to have some terrible information. Not a good source for anyone to use, for any team(fan sites).

As to Semin, I'd love to have him on Datsyuk's wing, but he does have injury issues. I got solid laugh out of the guy saying that Zetterberg 'had a bad back, injury prone, send him to Washington' considering he hasn't played under 74 games the last four years, and Semin hasn't played OVER 73 the last four years(three of those years he didn't get over 65!). So I'm not sure why Zetterberg is thought to be falling apart and not durable, yet he's played more games than Semin ever year the past four years(15 more games this year).

As far as Semin being close to Zetterberg defensively... Not even going to respond to that one.

Basically, for a trade to go through, there has to be a third team involved, so that Washington can get another scorer or something back.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen are obviously not going anywhere. So a team that might need some young talent/prospects(which the Wings have) who has someone that can go Washington's way and Semin can go Detroit's way, would make sense.

Still, not sure it's going to happen. Holland will probably wait until the deadline.

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07-17-2011, 10:26 AM
  #163
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Semin isn't even comparable to Flip defensively lol. Caps fans act like other teams don't watch the Caps just because we don't think their players are good defensively. The actual reason we don't think Semin is good defensively is because we actually know what good defense looks like. Semin could be good, if he put in a consistent effort. But he doesn't, so he isn't.

But if their were a trade, I would suspect some younger guys on Detroit would be involved like Abdelkader or Helm. I think Hudler is more likely to be traded than Filppula as well. Kindl would probably go as well. I think the real wild card is who the 3rd team would be. The Red Wings would trade their youth to team 3, who would trade something to Washington, who would give the Red Wings Semin.

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07-17-2011, 10:41 AM
  #164
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i love how the OP says im sorry if it seems like im starting a semin to detroit thread.

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07-17-2011, 10:50 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovin Ovenchicken View Post
It's clear you've paid no attention whatsoever to what GMGM has done this offseason.

What is it with Wings fans and their Hudler/pick/[more crap] for value proposals? No one wants that garbage.
I know Hudler is garbage. It why I always package him in trades.

Wings arent going to give up anyone else for a one year rental. It will either be Flip/Hudler/Draft pick/Prospect.(some various combination) Caps arent getting anything else from the Wings.

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07-17-2011, 10:56 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Caps arent getting anything else from the Wings.


Yeah, OK Holland. Run along now and insult other GMs with your garbage offers.

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07-17-2011, 11:00 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I know Hudler is garbage. It why I always package him in trades.

Wings arent going to give up anyone else for a one year rental. It will either be Flip/Hudler/Draft pick/Prospect.(some various combination) Caps arent getting anything else from the Wings.
...Then good luck getting Semin. Why do Wings fans try to shovel their **** onto other teams and expect gold in return? Just because you're the Red Wings doesn't mean other teams will just take your bad players. This isn't NHL 11, Semin isn't going to be had without giving up at least one roster player.

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07-17-2011, 11:04 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by HawkinMI View Post
...Then good luck getting Semin. Why do Wings fans try to shovel their **** onto other teams and expect gold in return? Just because you're the Red Wings doesn't mean other teams will just take your bad players. This isn't NHL 11, Semin isn't going to be had without giving up at least one roster player.
isnt his case for every trade propsal? good job doing generalization. I tell you Hawks fans are just as 'ridiculous' as you claim around here. In fact, every team has those fans. IMO, you just sound bitter towards Wings fans.

Stop insulting fan base and start adding to discussion. If you have anything to add.

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07-17-2011, 11:08 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
isnt his case for every trade propsal? good job doing generalization. I tell you Hawks fans are just as 'ridiculous' as you claim around here. In fact, every team has those fans. IMO, you just sound bitter towards Wings fans.

Stop insulting fan base and start adding to discussion. If you have anything to add.
Someone critiques a known truth about Wings fans. ZOMFG JEALOUSY. With that being said though, they are right, Holland won't deal much for a one year rental unless it's a sign and trade.

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07-17-2011, 11:08 AM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkinMI View Post
...Then good luck getting Semin. Why do Wings fans try to shovel their **** onto other teams and expect gold in return? Just because you're the Red Wings doesn't mean other teams will just take your bad players. This isn't NHL 11, Semin isn't going to be had without giving up at least one roster player.
Flip/Hudler/Draft pick or Flip/Hudler/prospect. IS more than enough payment for a potential one year rental. Ken Holland isn't a total moron like most GM's are.

derp.........lets give up kronwall for a guy with one year left on his contract.....no wait lets give up Franzen with a very tiny salary and great playoff performance.

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07-17-2011, 11:10 AM
  #171
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Franzen would def be part of the deal. Then either Cleary, Smith or Tatar.

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07-17-2011, 11:10 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Flip/Hudler/Draft pick or Flip/Hudler/prospect. IS more than enough payment for a potential one year rental. Ken Holland isn't a total moron like most GM's are.

derp.........lets give up kronwall for a guy with one year left on his contract.....no wait lets give up Franzen with a very tiny salary and great playoff performance.
Tiny Salary and Cap Hit =/= Franzen
Signed far longer then most reasonable people want = Franzen
Injury prone = Franzen

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Franzen would def be part of the deal. Then either Cleary, Smith or Tatar.
Unless he is signed before, no way this goes through.


Last edited by CloneHakanPlease*: 07-17-2011 at 11:16 AM.
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07-17-2011, 11:13 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
Tiny Salary and Cap Hit =/= Franzen
Signed far longer then most reasonable people want = Franzen
Injury prone = Franzen
I love people who have short term memory. Franzen has been injured twice. Last year and this years playoffs. He is injury prone folks. He is really old too and it's pretty obvious his body is breaking down at the age of 31.

Next year the salary cap will go up even more and that 3.95 million dollar cap hit will look even better. I was obviously referring to cap hit since the Wings arent poor and can afford to give players big salaries.

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07-17-2011, 11:14 AM
  #174
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why is that Eklund crap still known as a source? The guy(s) are in need of hits thats all.

Semin is not a Babcock type player and otherwise we do a huge overpayment for him (Smith ++++), the Caps won't trade him.

Whats next Datsukian as a cap E9?

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07-17-2011, 11:19 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I love people who have short term memory. Franzen has been injured twice. Last year and this years playoffs. He is injury prone folks. He is really old too and it's pretty obvious his body is breaking down at the age of 31.

Next year the salary cap will go up even more and that 3.95 million dollar cap hit will look even better. I was obviously referring to cap hit since the Wings arent poor and can afford to give players big salaries.
Did you just start watching the Red Wings? He misses large chunks of time every year due to injury.

Edit: http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=3802

Quote:
2011/05/12 Missed 2 playoff games (ankle injury).
2011/04/29 Missed 1 playoff game (ankle injury).
2011/03/28 Missed 4 games (groin).
2011/03/02 Missed 1 game (personal reasons).
2010/10/21 Missed 1 game (head injury).
2010/02/09 Missed 55 games (left knee surgery).
2009/02/18 Missed 5 games (hand injury).
2009/01/27 Missed 1 game (hip injury).
2008/11/11 Missed 5 games (knee injury).
2008/05/26 Missed the last 5 games of the Western Conference Finals against the Dallas Stars and Game One of the Stanley Cups Finals against the Pittsburgh Penguins (concussion).
2007/10/30 Missed 10 games (right knee injury).
2007/03/20 Missed 4 games (upper body injury).
2006/12/14 Missed 9 games (concussion).
2006/01/10 Missed 2 games (upper body injury).


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