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Top GMs, worst GMs, overrated GMs

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Old
08-02-2004, 06:11 PM
  #26
Prince Mercury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky83Schremp44
Could someone please change the name of the thread to "Whine about how your favorite team's Gm isn't the worst or most overrated" Or "Complain about your most hated team's GM being one of the best"...
I'm not whining, I just want one reason why Ferguson is the worst GM in the league.

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08-02-2004, 06:35 PM
  #27
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How the **** is Riser on the rise? the guy is a piece of **** half the time and doesn't know what the **** he is doing the other half. He has made some terrible decisions on rookies, been too much of a tight ass to spend any real money on his team even after 5 years, came up with a ****ing god awful 5 year plan that is so ****ed up it won't even be a ten year plan...

The only good year he has is this year when he decided to dump off the ****ing aging old veterans that were too old and worthless that even the Penguins didn't have any ****ing use for them.

 
Old
08-02-2004, 06:35 PM
  #28
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I couldn't tell you where MacLean falls. He's good at trading and drafting, but not so great at signing quality vets to good contracts.

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08-02-2004, 06:36 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
How the **** is Riser on the rise? the guy is a piece of **** half the time and doesn't know what the **** he is doing the other half. He has made some terrible decisions on rookies, been too much of a tight ass to spend any real money on his team even after 5 years, came up with a ****ing god awful 5 year plan that is so ****ed up it won't even be a ten year plan...

The only good year he has is this year when he decided to dump off the ****ing aging old veterans that were too old and worthless that even the Penguins didn't have any ****ing use for them.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel, TSK?

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08-02-2004, 07:11 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
How the **** is Riser on the rise? the guy is a piece of **** half the time and doesn't know what the **** he is doing the other half. He has made some terrible decisions on rookies, been too much of a tight ass to spend any real money on his team even after 5 years, came up with a ****ing god awful 5 year plan that is so ****ed up it won't even be a ten year plan...

The only good year he has is this year when he decided to dump off the ****ing aging old veterans that were too old and worthless that even the Penguins didn't have any ****ing use for them.
I can see you really love Risebrough!

I think he is building a very nice organization overall. Individual decisions are one thing, but as a whole he put the Wild up to a great start for an expansion franchise.

What kind of horrible decisions on rookies are you talking about?

I'm not sure it's just up to him how much he spends, you know

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08-02-2004, 07:14 PM
  #31
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I think Mcphee has done a good job in Washington. He got amazing prospect Morrisonn for Gonchar, and got good prospects for Bondra too. Those players would not resign in Washington either. He is a good gm. Cant really do much now, just wait.

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Old
08-02-2004, 07:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Mercury
I'm not whining, I just want one reason why Ferguson is the worst GM in the league.
He has one of the largest budgets in the league, and he spends ridiculous amounts of money on Klee, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and Belfour because, well, you know, they've won so many playoff rounds for you already.

Because all of the rest of the teams are holding back the salaries to maintain solidarity into the upcoming CBA talks, except....JFJ.

Because his plan doesn't seem to be any different than the plan of the last 10 years which has won you guys...nothing.

Why don't you tell me why he ISN'T one of the worst GMs in the league?

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08-02-2004, 07:37 PM
  #33
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i hate the leafs, but i think JFJ is a good GM. He managed to get Leetch ahead of alot of other teams, and shows the commitment to winning. The leafs, even though they are old, still have coliacovo, stajan, ponikarovsky, etc. so they kept some good young players.

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08-02-2004, 07:51 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vast Ant Dioi
He has one of the largest budgets in the league, and he spends ridiculous amounts of money on Klee, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and Belfour because, well, you know, they've won so many playoff rounds for you already.

Because all of the rest of the teams are holding back the salaries to maintain solidarity into the upcoming CBA talks, except....JFJ.

Because his plan doesn't seem to be any different than the plan of the last 10 years which has won you guys...nothing.

Why don't you tell me why he ISN'T one of the worst GMs in the league?
Right, re-signing key players makes him a bad GM.

FYI, John Ferguson Jr. is on the rise to becoming one of the best GM's in the league. He's 37 years old and has managed to become a fairly big name in the league already, and not for negative reasons.

JFJ traded for Brian Leetch while giving up a couple good prospects (6th and 8th rounders in their draft years), a 1st in a weak draft, and a 2nd rounder in the 2005 draft. He acquired one of the best defensemen in the league while keeping his top prospects.

He also put together one of the best teams on paper for the playoffs that we've had in Toronto for the last 37 years. All this in his rookie season.

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08-02-2004, 07:53 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vast Ant Dioi
He has one of the largest budgets in the league, and he spends ridiculous amounts of money on Klee, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and Belfour because, well, you know, they've won so many playoff rounds for you already.

Because all of the rest of the teams are holding back the salaries to maintain solidarity into the upcoming CBA talks, except....JFJ.

Because his plan doesn't seem to be any different than the plan of the last 10 years which has won you guys...nothing.

Why don't you tell me why he ISN'T one of the worst GMs in the league?
I'll give you a few reasons.

A) He kept together a successful team. Although it may not have made it to the the conference finals, it is no reason to dismantle it. Also I believe he realizes that should we have Leetch for a full season, our seeding will be higher and we won't have to go through a war in the first round.

B) He managed to pull Leetch out of his hat, two youngsters which the team felt were not progressing well and two draft picks.

C) He is detirmined to reatain our youth sore (Stajan, Steen, Colaiacovo, Tellqvist).

By the way, should Ken Holland be considered a bad GM for keeping together the majority of a team that has gone the same distance as the Leafs in the playoffs the past two years? Is John Muckler a bad GM for making a Goalie swap and ditching his team's number 1/2 centre because they failed to make it past the first round? Piere Lacroix has kept together a team that were on the verge of being swept in the second round, is he a bad GM? The answer is simply no. Also you make a horrible argument by saying that he is a bad GM for using the money he is given. That is the job of a GM, to use the budjet you are given to create a successful team. And he also isn't the only GM showing dis-regard for the looming CBA changes. The Red Wings, Avalanche, Stars, Flyers and Rangers among others are all far beyond any projected cap.

How can JFJ even compare to the likes of Mad Mike Milbury, Glen Sather and Jim Rutherford? Quite simply he can't. All this seems to be is another attempt to bash the Leafs organization.

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Old
08-02-2004, 08:13 PM
  #36
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People that bash JFJ are just leaf haters. JFJ is a good GM, and will continue to get better.

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Old
08-02-2004, 08:30 PM
  #37
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I think Dave Taylor is somewhere in the middle of the pack. He did a great job building from a team that had literally absolutely nothing after the 1997 season, to a decent team with an above average farm system today. A lot of GMs talk about 5 year plans to rebuild, and DT put the Kings on the right course.......just a bunch of freakish injuries derailed the last two seasons.

Although Dave Taylor has made several bad deadline deals. Cliff Ronning was a bust, even though they didn't give up much in hindsight to get him (Karalahti/4th). And the Anson Carter 15 game experiment didn't pan out, and cost them a somewhat valuable bargaining chip in Jared Aulin.

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08-02-2004, 08:59 PM
  #38
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Best
1. Lou Lamoriello - duh.
2. Bob Gainey - did an outstanding job in Dallas, and Montreal's organization has had so much more direction since he took over
3. Ken Holland - keeps an aging Detroit team at the top year after year, when all logic says they should be regressing
4. Jay Feaster - no getting around what a solid job he's done in TB
5. David Poile - has drafted well and built a deep young organization on a shoestring budget. If there's a salary cap coming, this team might be in the best shape in the entire league when you factor their young talent level vs. their tiny payroll
6. Pierre Lacroix - over-rated in general because of the team he inherited, but probably the best in the league at the trade deadline

Worst
1. George McPhee - I can't name a good trade he's made, or a quality talent he brought into the Capitals' organization. Has just run that team right into the ground.
2. Jim Rutherford - just a horribly run organization.
3. Larry Pleau - inherited virtually his entire core from the Keenan era. Added little to it. Overpaid horribly for Tkachuk. Continually unable to find quality goaltending. Team is on the downswing.
4. Glen Sather - the game passed him by years ago.


Over-rated
1. Pierre Lacroix - inherited the greatest core of young talent in recent NHL history outside of the early-'80s Oilers, and his team couldn't help but be a perennial powerhouse.
2. Brian Burke - Did a good job giving the Canucks credibility again and on the payroll front, but didn't add a lot in terms of talent and proved continually unable to find quality goaltending.
3. Doug Wilson - gets a lot of credit because the team turned around so much in his first year, but the only player he added was Nils Ekman. Everyone else was inherited from Lombardi, and Lombardi did most of the budget cutting in the previous year as well. Might be a good GM, but I don't see a lot of evidence yet.
4. Kevin Lowe - not a horrible GM, but his team has been going backwards it seems since he took over.

Under-rated
1. Mike Milbury - has made two awful trades (Bertuzzi, Luongo), but has made more good trades than any other GM in the last decade, has the best top-4 on defense in the league, one of the best young goaltenders in the league, and has had his team in the playoffs 3 years in a row.
2. Bobby Clarke - has a strange way of going about things sometimes and is extremely unlikeable, but continually has his team near the top of the league
3. Dave Taylor - not his fault his team was ravaged by injuries the last two years, and did a terrific job building LA into a quality organization in the years before that.

Best unemployed
1. Dean Lombardi - he built the exceptionally good young squad in SJ, but got canned because of a poor season and saw Wilson reap the rewards.
2. Neil Smith - was caught in a difficult situation in NY with an aging team in a huge market where it's tough to rebuild. People forget what a good job he did as head scout in Detroit and in NY for the majority of his stay there ... still young and a quality hockey guy.
3. Brian Burke

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Old
08-02-2004, 09:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs Forever
I'll give you a few reasons.

A) He kept together a successful team. Although it may not have made it to the the conference finals, it is no reason to dismantle it. Also I believe he realizes that should we have Leetch for a full season, our seeding will be higher and we won't have to go through a war in the first round.
Successful in the regular season means close to zilch. The higher seeded teams fight all year to play against so-called "weaker teams", which these days tend to be young teams on the rise, hungry, and with nothing to lose. The Canucks and Wings, if not more teams, have realized that building a cup contender means building a team that gets into the playoffs and is then built to succeed in that environment. It doesn't mean getting 115 points in the regular season. In the end President's Trophies mean nothing; I'm sure the Wings would gladly trade theirs in for the Cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs Forever
B) He managed to pull Leetch out of his hat, two youngsters which the team felt were not progressing well and two draft picks.
What is he now, 37? Do you honestly expect him to bring the cup home to the T-dot? I don't. So what that he won a bidding war? That automatically makes him a good GM? Clarke won the bidding war for Adam Oates. Whoop-de-doo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs Forever
C) He is detirmined to reatain our youth sore (Stajan, Steen, Colaiacovo, Tellqvist).
Then why doesn't he give them a place to play instead of piling frail, past-their-prime old guys in front of them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs Forever
By the way, should Ken Holland be considered a bad GM for keeping together the majority of a team that has gone the same distance as the Leafs in the playoffs the past two years?
Terrible example. Holland's team has won more in the last 10 years than your team has in the last 50, and assembled probably the consistently best team of the last 10 years. He made a mistake in keeping that team together for one too many years after its core parts became a little too old to compete in an NHL that's getting younger. But that team actually WON something. Now, Holland has decided that players like Hull and Schneider aren't going to win another cup, and he's cast them off, something the Leafs don't seem to be able to do. Are they going to keep Belfour until he's 50?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs Forever
Is John Muckler a bad GM for making a Goalie swap and ditching his team's number 1/2 centre because they failed to make it past the first round? Piere Lacroix has kept together a team that were on the verge of being swept in the second round, is he a bad GM? The answer is simply no.
Sorry, I completely fail to see the relevance of these examples. John Muckler deserves some criticism, but not for shaking the team up. There's another good regular season team that isn't built to win in the playoffs. Muckler's finally realized that and is making some changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leafs Forever
Also you make a horrible argument by saying that he is a bad GM for using the money he is given. That is the job of a GM, to use the budjet you are given to create a successful team. And he also isn't the only GM showing dis-regard for the looming CBA changes. The Red Wings, Avalanche, Stars, Flyers and Rangers among others are all far beyond any projected cap.
I didn't say he was a bad GM for using the money, I said he was a bad GM for MIS-using the money. There were and are far better options out there than Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and Klee. And that's just in the UFA market. Do you people in Leafs land even understand the concept of developing FROM WITHIN? You don't have to sign your entire team from unrestricted free agency, you know.

As of THIS SUMMER, JFJ is the biggest offender in disregarding owner solidarity and overpaying to build a "winner". Most of those teams you mentioned have not signed anybody significant this summer, the exception being the Wings re-signing Shanahan.

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Old
08-02-2004, 09:24 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
Over-rated
1. Pierre Lacroix - inherited the greatest core of young talent in recent NHL history outside of the early-'80s Oilers, and his team couldn't help but be a perennial powerhouse.
2. Brian Burke - Did a good job giving the Canucks credibility again and on the payroll front, but didn't add a lot in terms of talent and proved continually unable to find quality goaltending.
3. Doug Wilson - gets a lot of credit because the team turned around so much in his first year, but the only player he added was Nils Ekman. Everyone else was inherited from Lombardi, and Lombardi did most of the budget cutting in the previous year as well. Might be a good GM, but I don't see a lot of evidence yet.
4. Kevin Lowe - not a horrible GM, but his team has been going backwards it seems since he took over.
I disagree. The reason posters like you say Lowe's overrated is because he took over from Slats. With Slats, the Oilers had won thier first Stanley Cup in their fifth year and had played in their first Stanley Cup in the fourth season. When Slats became GM, he had Gretzky and Messier. He then drafted Anderson, Kurri, Fuhr and Coffey. Anybody could have coached that team. When Lowe became GM, he had to clean up the mess that Slats made. Lowe didn't have the luxury of players that Slats had.

Slats didn't think he needed to draft well as he thought the team was good enough. He drafted busts from 1988-1998. That's 10 years of horrible drafting. Lowe had to basically start from scratch to improve the drafting. He took over and the minor league team wasn't great and it wasn't even good. Lowe had to clean up the mess that Slats left. Barry Fraser should have been fired for the 10 years of bad drafting but Slats didn't fire him.

I've seen Lowe get criticized for things that Slats did. Slats didn't do much the last 10 years of his tenor in Edmonton but didn't get criticized as much as Lowe has in the last 4 years. Since Lowe took over, the Oilers have been over .500. Slats was below .500 for at least the last 7-10 years he was with the Oilers.

IMO, Lowe is the most criticized GM in the NHL.

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Old
08-02-2004, 09:58 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky83
I disagree. The reason posters like you say Lowe's overrated is because he took over from Slats. With Slats, the Oilers had won thier first Stanley Cup in their fifth year and had played in their first Stanley Cup in the fourth season. When Slats became GM, he had Gretzky and Messier. He then drafted Anderson, Kurri, Fuhr and Coffey. Anybody could have coached that team. When Lowe became GM, he had to clean up the mess that Slats made. Lowe didn't have the luxury of players that Slats had.

Slats didn't think he needed to draft well as he thought the team was good enough. He drafted busts from 1988-1998. That's 10 years of horrible drafting. Lowe had to basically start from scratch to improve the drafting. He took over and the minor league team wasn't great and it wasn't even good. Lowe had to clean up the mess that Slats left. Barry Fraser should have been fired for the 10 years of bad drafting but Slats didn't fire him.

I've seen Lowe get criticized for things that Slats did. Slats didn't do much the last 10 years of his tenor in Edmonton but didn't get criticized as much as Lowe has in the last 4 years. Since Lowe took over, the Oilers have been over .500. Slats was below .500 for at least the last 7-10 years he was with the Oilers.

IMO, Lowe is the most criticized GM in the NHL.
Most of what you talk about was already fixed when Lowe took over. When he took over as GM in the summer of 2000, the Oilers had made the playoffs 3 years in a row, had won a couple rounds, and were considered one of the best young teams in the league. The blueline had Hamrlik, Niinimaa, Poti, and Smith all under the age of 26. Lots of young, fast talent up front as well as established stars in Guerin and Weight. Good netminder in Salo.

I just don't think most of his deals have been all that great. He got a steaming pile of crap for Doug Weight. Grier was given away. The Niinimaa deal was essentially a top-2 defender for a 3rd liner and a 4th liner (I like Torres, but ...). I can't think of many deals he's made that have really pushed the team forward ... Poti for York might be the only one. He hasn't had many reclamation projects that have worked out (compare that to Calgary). He hasn't been able to find a quality replacement for Salo. He hasn't drafted a whole lot better than Sather did. I recognize how finances are a concern, but other teams with similar payrolls (ie Calgary, Nashville) seem to have a lot more direction right now. Edmonton just seems to be in neutral.

Like I said, I don't think he's a bad GM, and he definitely isn't running the Oilers into the ground or anything. To me, he's just a very blah GM. Mediocre drafting, average deals. Hasn't won a playoff round in 4 years. One very poor trade (Weight). And yet he's usually talked about as one of the brighter young GMs in the league and is one of the guys selected to work for Team Canada.

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08-02-2004, 10:21 PM
  #42
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I disagree with everything you've said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
Most of what you talk about was already fixed when Lowe took over. When he took over as GM in the summer of 2000, the Oilers had made the playoffs 3 years in a row, had won a couple rounds, and were considered one of the best young teams in the league. The blueline had Hamrlik, Niinimaa, Poti, and Smith all under the age of 26. Lots of young, fast talent up front as well as established stars in Guerin and Weight. Good netminder in Salo.
You really are anti-Lowe and will criticize anything Lowe does because of your hatred towards Lowe. Nothing was fixed when Lowe took over. Slats left a mess when he left. Who cares if the Oilers made the playoffs three years in a row when Slats left. They were still under .500 with Slats the last 5-10 years. Then what happened to Salo. Don't tell me that Salo all of a sudden became crap because Lowe became GM. You seem to be blaming everything else on Lowe why not blame him for Salo's downfall as well.

[/quote]I just don't think most of his deals have been all that great. He got a steaming pile of crap for Doug Weight. Grier was given away. The Niinimaa deal was essentially a top-2 defender for a 3rd liner and a 4th liner (I like Torres, but ...). I can't think of many deals he's made that have really pushed the team forward ... Poti for York might be the only one. He hasn't had many reclamation projects that have worked out (compare that to Calgary). He hasn't been able to find a quality replacement for Salo. He hasn't drafted a whole lot better than Sather did. I recognize how finances are a concern, but other teams with similar payrolls (ie Calgary, Nashville) seem to have a lot more direction right now. Edmonton just seems to be in neutral. [/quote]

So I suppose York and a 4th rounder for Poti and Murray is crap. What about Dvorak and Cross for Pisa and Carter? Is that a crappy deal as well? The Weight trade didn't bring back that much because he was 1 year away from UFA plus the Roenic signing by Philadelphia. The Oilers eventually ended up with Reasoner, Stoll and JDD. Grier didn't do much and the Oilers couldn't get much in return. He had trouble recovering from an injury. Gee, you sure hate Lowe, don't you. I liked that trade (Niinimaa trade) then and I still like it now. I can see Torres as a top 6. So 20 goals is garbage. Nice try. You are really out to lunch. Hemsky, Stoll, JDD, Markkanen, Pouliot, Schremp, Dubnyk, Lynch were all drafted by Lowe. Are you trying to tell me these players are all junk? Niinimaa was traded because he had back trouble and complained about his back. Now all of a sudden you hear nothing about his back. Hmmmmm.....

Quote:
Like I said, I don't think he's a bad GM, and he definitely isn't running the Oilers into the ground or anything. To me, he's just a very blah GM. Mediocre drafting, average deals. Hasn't won a playoff round in 4 years. One very poor trade (Weight). And yet he's usually talked about as one of the brighter young GMs in the league and is one of the guys selected to work for Team Canada.
What about Slats then? He hasn't even made the playoffs in 4 years yet nothing is said. Lowe gets criticized for things that Slats did. Slats left a mess and it wasn't fixed when he took over. Take off your anti-Lowe glasses. Slats signed that bust Heinrich before leaving the Oilers. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Lowe is a good GM. He had to basically rebuild the mess that Slats made. Don't give me the crap that Lowe doesn't draft better than Slats because that's simply a lie. Lowe is drafting better than Slats.

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08-02-2004, 10:49 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vast Ant Dioi
Rank those cigar-chompers who sit in the front office and make the decisions for your team. I'm looking for top and bottom 5 GMs and a top 5 overrated GMs. Consider the obvious things like trade history and draft history, but also such things as coach selection, contract negotiations, budget they have to work with, demands of ownership, good and bad UFA signings, etc.

Top 5 GMs:

1. Lou Lamoriello
2. David Poile
3. Jay Feaster
4. Doug Wilson
5. Darryl Sutter*

* I tried not go to with the homer pick but I couldn't think of anyone I'd put ahead of him at this time, even though he still has lots to prove.

Most overrated GMs:

1. Ken Holland
2. Brian Burke
3. Pierre Lacroix
4. Larry Pleau
5. Kevin Lowe

Worst GMs:

1. John Ferguson, Jr.
2. Jeremy Jacobs (heh, I mean Mike O'Connell)
3. Brian Burke
4. Glen Sather
5. Larry Pleau
:lol

Try not to be a homer and still rank sutter as top 5, while you have Burke listed as "OVER-RATED" AND "WORST" on the same list.

Tell me how can a GM who turned around a franchise from bottom feeders into one of the most exciting hockey team in the league, while making the playoffs every year for the past 4 seasons. Before Burke got to Vancouver, I dont want to even think about how bad Canucks were at the time in late 90s.

Call me homer, but Burke does not belong to the 5 worst GM in the NHL (if Burke were still a GM today)

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Old
08-02-2004, 10:54 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
None of those guys ever close to being as awful as Rutherford. Rutherford will go straight in the pantheon of suckiness to join folks such as Rejean Houle, Rick Dudley and Craig Button.

Brian Burke is not a GM anymore either.

As a side question Vlad, who is Rejean Houle. I have heard of the others, just not him, just wondering.

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Old
08-02-2004, 11:00 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNucksFan
:lol

Try not to be a homer and still rank sutter as top 5, while you have Burke listed as "OVER-RATED" AND "WORST" on the same list.

Tell me how can a GM who turned around a franchise from bottom feeders into one of the most exciting hockey team in the league, while making the playoffs every year for the past 4 seasons. Before Burke got to Vancouver, I dont want to even think about how bad Canucks were at the time in late 90s.

Call me homer, but Burke does not belong to the 5 worst GM in the NHL (if Burke were still a GM today)
Agreed. Sutter shouldn't even be on there to begin with. How can he be on the 5 best after 1 year as GM. That is beyond homerism.

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08-02-2004, 11:02 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Hemsky83
I disagree with everything you've said.

You really are anti-Lowe and will criticize anything Lowe does because of your hatred towards Lowe. Nothing was fixed when Lowe took over. Slats left a mess when he left. Who cares if the Oilers made the playoffs three years in a row when Slats left. They were still under .500 with Slats the last 5-10 years. Then what happened to Salo. Don't tell me that Salo all of a sudden became crap because Lowe became GM. You seem to be blaming everything else on Lowe why not blame him for Salo's downfall as well.

So I suppose York and a 4th rounder for Poti and Murray is crap. What about Dvorak and Cross for Pisa and Carter? Is that a crappy deal as well? The Weight trade didn't bring back that much because he was 1 year away from UFA plus the Roenic signing by Philadelphia. The Oilers eventually ended up with Reasoner, Stoll and JDD. Grier didn't do much and the Oilers couldn't get much in return. He had trouble recovering from an injury. Gee, you sure hate Lowe, don't you. I liked that trade (Niinimaa trade) then and I still like it now. I can see Torres as a top 6. So 20 goals is garbage. Nice try. You are really out to lunch. Hemsky, Stoll, JDD, Markkanen, Pouliot, Schremp, Dubnyk, Lynch were all drafted by Lowe. Are you trying to tell me these players are all junk? Niinimaa was traded because he had back trouble and complained about his back. Now all of a sudden you hear nothing about his back. Hmmmmm.....


I don't hate Kevin Lowe. I don't wear anti-Lowe glasses. I don't cheer for or against the Oilers. I don't even think Lowe is a bad GM. I think he's a middle of the pack or slightly lower GM, probably around #15-20 in the league.

I just don't think he's done a whole lot to move his team forward since he took over. I listed Poti-York as probably his best move. Carter-Dvorak was decent. I like Raffi Torres, but Edmonton had a worse roster after that deal. Same with the Hamrlik deal, same with the Comrie deal (although I know his hand was forced there). Show me some deals he made that made the Oilers' roster substantially better.

As for the drafting, how exactly has it changed? The same guy (Prendergast) heads the scouting staff. The staff is mostly the same. When Sather left, the team had one of the best prospect pools in the league, including guys like Rita (top-20 prospect in the league at the time), Comrie, Semenov, Henrich, Chimera, Horcoff, etc. You give a list of current quality Oiler prospects, but you do realize that (as is the case with any team) most of those guys won't make it, right? I don't think it's any better than the list of prospects that the team had in 2000. Taking guys like Mikhnov, Winchester, Caron, and Niinimaki with high picks doesn't say a whole lot for Lowe, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky83
What about Slats then? He hasn't even made the playoffs in 4 years yet nothing is said. Lowe gets criticized for things that Slats did. Slats left a mess and it wasn't fixed when he took over. Take off your anti-Lowe glasses. Slats signed that bust Heinrich before leaving the Oilers. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Lowe is a good GM. He had to basically rebuild the mess that Slats made. Don't give me the crap that Lowe doesn't draft better than Slats because that's simply a lie. Lowe is drafting better than Slats.
again.

I listed Sather as one of the worst GMs in the league in my original post. This team was not a mess when Sather left, though. They were in the playoffs 3 years in a row. They had a good goaltender. They had an excellent young blueline. They had a quality group up front. They had a very strong prospect pool. This is not a 'mess', by any definition.

Sorry to have made you so angry.

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08-02-2004, 11:26 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS


I don't hate Kevin Lowe. I don't wear anti-Lowe glasses. I don't cheer for or against the Oilers. I don't even think Lowe is a bad GM. I think he's a middle of the pack or slightly lower GM, probably around #15-20 in the league.
No comment.

Quote:
I just don't think he's done a whole lot to move his team forward since he took over. I listed Poti-York as probably his best move. Carter-Dvorak was decent. I like Raffi Torres, but Edmonton had a worse roster after that deal. Same with the Hamrlik deal, same with the Comrie deal (although I know his hand was forced there). Show me some deals he made that made the Oilers' roster substantially better.
So you're saying Torres is garbage despite scoring 20 goals. Interesting. I think part of the reason Niinimaa was traded is because of his chronic back. How can you say the Oilers had a worse roster after that trade. Comrie is an *******, simple as that. I read something about Comrie that made me mad. He apparently demanded a trade 3 times after he came back from injury. If you want further details PM me. The trade with the Rangers that got the Oilers Nedved improved the Oilers as well as the PP.

Quote:
As for the drafting, how exactly has it changed? The same guy (Prendergast) heads the scouting staff. The staff is mostly the same. When Sather left, the team had one of the best prospect pools in the league, including guys like Rita (top-20 prospect in the league at the time), Comrie, Semenov, Henrich, Chimera, Horcoff, etc. You give a list of current quality Oiler prospects, but you do realize that (as is the case with any team) most of those guys won't make it, right? I don't think it's any better than the list of prospects that the team had in 2000. Taking guys like Mikhnov, Winchester, Caron, and Niinimaki with high picks doesn't say a whole lot for Lowe, either.
Prendergast didn't head the scouting while Slats was here. There was an article in the paper where Prendergast wanted to draft Elias and Sykora (the one that was in NJ) and was overruled by Fraser. Fraser was head scout until 2000 I believe. Prendegast may have had more input in 1999 but not before then. Don't attack Prendegast for Fraser's mistakes. What about the Fraser picks (Bonsignore, Kelly, Intranouva (sp?), Scott Allison, Devereaux, Heinrich).



Quote:
again.

I listed Sather as one of the worst GMs in the league in my original post. This team was not a mess when Sather left, though. They were in the playoffs 3 years in a row. They had a good goaltender. They had an excellent young blueline. They had a quality group up front. They had a very strong prospect pool. This is not a 'mess', by any definition.

Sorry to have made you so angry.
Sorry to burst your bubble but this team's prospects pool was a mess. The Oilers were near the bottom of the league in terms of prospects. They did not have a strong prospect pool. I'm sorry but Lowe has drafted better than Slats.


Last edited by Narnia: 08-02-2004 at 11:30 PM.
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Old
08-02-2004, 11:33 PM
  #48
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitesadd
As a side question Vlad, who is Rejean Houle. I have heard of the others, just not him, just wondering.
This is some dark, forbidden knowledge you are asking about!

Rejean Houle is a former player from the glory days of the Montreal Habs. The Habs were owned and had a long association with the Molson company. Upon retiring as a player, Reggie (who is one of the nicest hockey player I have ever met but definitly not the brightest bulb) went to work for the Molson company and his involvement in hockey (except for promotional events) ended there.

Until one day after 4-5 games in the season, the President had the bad idea to fire GM Serge Savard and coach Jacques Demers. Replaced by Rejean (Peanut) Houle and Mario Tremblay.

That's pretty much like putting Axl Rose and Todd Bertuzzi in a lab and asking them to find a cure for cancer. It's just not something anyone sensible would ever think about seriously.

What followed is the destruction of what was still a pretty solid franchise. Houle just kept on juggling, mismanaging and bleeding this team to the ground. He's the typical company guy, very nice and fiercely loyal but he is also just a notch above being a recognized retard. He was eventually replaced by Andre Savard (no relation to Serge Savard), to his relief.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Behold the power of Peanut!!!

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08-02-2004, 11:33 PM
  #49
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Solid list, Vladdy. I like Holland and Clarke in your top 5. I have several peices I don't like however:

Gainey I consider a very middle-of-the-road GM.

Poile I don't think belongs on the most overrated group either.

Lastly, I don't share your optimism about Riseborough.

Surprised MacLean has been overlooked on some of the 'worst' lists.

My list...

Best:
1 - Lou Lamoriello
2 - Ken Holland
3 - Bob Clarke
4 - Daryll Sutter (not much time there in Calgary, but I can only go off of what he's done thus far)
5 - Pierre Lacroix

Most Overrated:
1 - Dave Taylor
2 - Kevin Lowe
3 - Bob Gainey
4 - Don Waddell
5 - Doug Armstrong

Worst:

1 - Mike Milbury
2 - Glen Sather
3 - Doug Riseborough
4 - Don MacLean
5 - Jim Rutherford

Up & Comers:

1 - Jay Feaster (I believe that Bolts team is going to be competing for a while, this aint a one-year-wonder. If he can keep them together, and I believe he can, boy will he have done a great job)

2 - Mike Burnett (I'm sure many of you are laughing at me, but go ahead. The guy has put together one of the best young offensively-skilled group in the Western Conference. He's been signing well and making good moves (getting Morris and Ballard for Gratton and Vaananen and a 2nd was a coup). The big challenge will be getting a goaltender and hiring a coach though.)

3 - Dave Nonis (Homer vote? I don't think so. This is the guy who signed Naslund and Ohlund to their contracts. He was perhaps the biggest part of the financial-side of the Canucks under Burke. We don't know how he trades yet, and the draft is way too early to tell, but if he can translate his skills at the contract table to making deals, he could be way up on this list in several years.)

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Old
08-02-2004, 11:40 PM
  #50
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Why is Lowe getting all this crap of being overrated? He is not overrated but the most criticized GM. There are fans that are expecting the same from Lowe as from Slats in the first 5 years. It ain't happening. Slats had a better roster to begin with. He didn't have to clean up the mess that Slats left. Man do I wish Slats never existed. Taking over from Slats could ruin Lowe's career. He's being compared to Slats all the time. Lowe is not Slats. Lowe is doing a good job with the budget he has. Is it Lowe's fault that Salo's career suddenly plummeted. I don't think so. I'm sure there are fans that will blame Lowe for Salo's career going downhill.

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