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Top GMs, worst GMs, overrated GMs

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:02 AM
  #101
Mizral
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Okay, biggest knocks against Dave Taylor coming up:

- The entire Roman Cechmanek trade is looking awful. Getting arguably the worst starting goaltender in the league for a 2nd round pick, plus they get to pay him $3 million a season? Yuck.

- Letting Palffy go (so it seems) is going to go down as one of the all-time dumbest moves in LA Kings history. The guy is worth more than they are offering. I think most Kings fans know it.

- Aaron Miller's $4.5 million dollar contract makes him the Western equivilent to Darius Kasparitis. Perhaps the most overpaid #3/4 defenseman in the West, maybe the league (can't think of any who make more who are worse).

- Bringing back Jozef Stumpel?

- Bringing in Anson Carter?

- Question: You have an injury prone team. What kind of player should you seek? If you guessed Martin Straka, maybe you can be a GM too!

- I think there is a lot more to the Kings injury woes than luck. His coach (and there's another overrated guy) refuses to ice a tough team. The Kings are routinely one of the softest teams in the league every single year. Taylor has yet to address the toughness issue.

- The recent Conroy contract.. yikes. Sa'll I'll say.

Just some examples. Then again, it's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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08-04-2004, 12:03 AM
  #102
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I will say this about JFJ: His deadline moves weren't the greatest. Ron Francis and Calle Johansson signing were both major-league flops. Leetch was nice, but at his money he better be. On the upside, neither were particularly high risk ventures. Also it's nice to see he's got the balls to go for it.

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:08 AM
  #103
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I too am Puzzled at these "JFJ = w0rst gee Emm EV0RRRRRR!!!" posts.

he's only been GM for 1 friggin season, that's too soon to judge him one way or another but lets see what he's done so far.

His UFA Signings.

Pro's- Signed Klee dirt cheap as a UFA

Signed Nieuwendyk dirt cheap as a UFA

Con's- Overpayed for Bryan Marchment.(or was that Quinn?)

His Trades

Pro's- Leetch, he gave up 2 average prospects for Leetch, the 1st stings a bit it was a Weak draft but we could have traded up with it, the 2nd next year doesn't bother me that much, unless we trade next year's 1st too then I'll be mad.

Francis for a 4th, fine and dandy with Me Francis was helpful for us and to see Ronnie Franchaise play for the team he grew up watching brought a Tear to my eye.

Kept the top Prospects of Steen, Colaiacovo, and Stajan(even though he's not classed as a Prospect anymore)

Con's- Jackman for The Drake!, I don't know if you can call this a Con though at the time it was a wash a swap of 2 AWFUL depth Dmen.

Jackman went on to be a sexy surprise for the Pens, The Drake was scary at times for us, allthough he turned out to be not that bad when Injuries hit going a +5.

Draft- our first pick was in the 3rd hard to tell how good or bad a GM is based on that but he did draft Poggemon which fills a void in our youth in the Nets with Todd Ford being the only young prospect goalie under contract.

Re-signings-

Pro- Roberts(Pay Cut)

Pro-Nieuwendyk(1 million raise, at 3 million is still worth it)

Pro- Belfour(You heard me PAY CUT!)

Roberts is our workhorse old or not he's a fan favorite, scores, and also is the gritty leader we need.

Nieuwendyk gives us depth at Center and considering he wins a large majority of his faceoffs he's someone we can toss out there in crucial situations

Belfour? he's just been our most valueable player for the past 2 years and stole a series for us against the Sens is all, yet at a paycut from those 2 years it's a bad deal?

Cons- Berg, Berg's a decent #5-6 Defenseman I liked Marchment more but Mush is gone and we have a void to fill there so it makes sense I would have prefered letting him become a UFA and re-signing marchment instead(at a lower price then he made this year)

JFJ certinly isn't a top 5 GM in the League but he's not worst 5, he's a good GM and is getting better, his hiring of more scouts and the conditioning camp for Prospects shows a commitment to the future.

the only thing I hate about JFJ is "The Line"

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08-04-2004, 12:11 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead
Worst GM - Mike Milbury

This guy is some piece of work. He has drafted incredibly well over the past decade, but if you were consistantly picking in the top 5 every year I guess he should be pretty good at it. He has drafted some real gems...unfortunately none are still with the club...

Todd Bertuzzi
Bryan McCabe
Eric Brewer
Roberto Luongo
Bryan Berard
Zdeno Chara
Zigmund Palffy
Milbury only drafted brewer, luongo and chara from that list. the others were either drafted before he was GM or were traded for. And really, many of Milbury's gems have been in later rounds -- Chara, for example, was a third round pick.

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:12 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
I will say this about JFJ: His deadline moves weren't the greatest. Ron Francis and Calle Johansson signing were both major-league flops. Leetch was nice, but at his money he better be. On the upside, neither were particularly high risk ventures. Also it's nice to see he's got the balls to go for it.
I disagree Leetch was amazing for us 15 points in 15 games was more then I bargined for.

Francis was a nice 3rd line Center and had some timley goals for us, in the Playoffs when both Sundin and Nieuwendyk were down he didn't score but he didn't flop either.

Johannson didn't do too good I liked him though I prefered him over Berg, Quinn sat him though so I dunno.

we gave up nothing for Calle except a few thousand dollars, had we acctually given up something for him then I'd be angry probably but it wasn't too bad considering all we lost was some money to pay him for 15 games.

also I forgot Chad Kilger, Chad was picked up off Waivers for nothing and turned out to be one of our better checking forewards in the playoffs, he and Domi showed some nice chemistry and at his low price is a welcome addition.

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:15 AM
  #106
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Oh, I agree with you don't confuse things. I think Leetch was a great pickup, even at the price. Just saying that at $6 million or whatever it is, he better be good!

All I'm saying is it didn't work out this go-around for JFJ. But better to try and fail than not to try at all I guess, in this case at least. The Leafs I figure have as many kicks at the can as Belfour does have years left.

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:24 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Oh, I agree with you don't confuse things. I think Leetch was a great pickup, even at the price. Just saying that at $6 million or whatever it is, he better be good!

All I'm saying is it didn't work out this go-around for JFJ. But better to try and fail than not to try at all I guess, in this case at least. The Leafs I figure have as many kicks at the can as Belfour does have years left.
Yeah 6 million is a lot of money in one player, and hopefully the regular season and playoffs wern't just a dip in the bucket, I hope Leetch is putting up Norris type numbers next year.

I think he can too, he single handidly turned this Powerplay into something that should be feared, I thought it was scary enough with Sundin, Mogilny, Nolan, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, McCabe, Kaberle, and Even Klee.

but our PP at times would go into droughts for periods of time where not only didn't we capitilize but we didn't even get shots on goal for 2 or 3 powerplay's in a row.

untill we got Leetch he's done wonders for this team's Powerplay, his passes and how he sneaks in ninja like for deep slot one timers is amazing.

Ranger fans wern't ************ when they said Leetch was still a #1 D-Man.

Toronto hasn't seen a Defenseman this skilled dare I say since Borje.

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:30 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
I will say this about JFJ: His deadline moves weren't the greatest. Ron Francis and Calle Johansson signing were both major-league flops.
I can't blame Fergie about Francis because I don't think anyone knew how useless he'd be even on the fourth line. It may have turned sour but like the Douggy deal the year before, it had its merits on paper.

And as Bluesman here alluded to, Ferguson fixed a problem that had nagged at the Leafs for twenty years - he finally got the defense working.

He didn't win the cup, but most GMs don't - let alone in their first year. Besides, if nothing else you gotta love his reactions on the absolutely huge goals (Sundin's second in game 6 vs. Philly for a clear reference).

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Old
08-04-2004, 10:49 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
Doug hasn't done as much to be put in any group, you can't label him anything just yet, let alone overrated, when not one person related to the Dallas Stars organisation has ever regret a single move of his. Well outside some draft picks but he isn't a scout, all he does is announce them. He has maintained Mike Modano and Marty Turco, signed Jere Lehtinen to a rediculously cheap and long term deal, and adresses our needs without hesitations. Yet you are praising your own Nonis strictly for having re-signed Naslund, your logic is completely flawed by I assume your bias and I would seriously like to hear some sound reasoning to back this up.

Bob made a few questional signees (Turgeon, Audette, Kamensky), or the lack there of (letting Hull walk), but he always tried to fix what didn't work out as soon as possible. He pretty much build the 1999 Stars championship team, I don't know how you can say he's overrated, not especially after he managed to turn Montreal into a contender the moment he arrived.
.. still waiting Jay..

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08-04-2004, 11:01 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Mercury
I'm not whining, I just want one reason why Ferguson is the worst GM in the league.

I'll give you 2.

Signing Roberts for over 3mil a year.

Signing Newey for over 3 mil a year.


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Old
08-04-2004, 11:10 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vast Ant Dioi
Rank those cigar-chompers who sit in the front office and make the decisions for your team. I'm looking for top and bottom 5 GMs and a top 5 overrated GMs. Consider the obvious things like trade history and draft history, but also such things as coach selection, contract negotiations, budget they have to work with, demands of ownership, good and bad UFA signings, etc.

Top 5 GMs:

1. Lou Lamoriello
2. David Poile
3. Jay Feaster
4. Doug Wilson
5. Darryl Sutter*

* I tried not go to with the homer pick but I couldn't think of anyone I'd put ahead of him at this time, even though he still has lots to prove.

Most overrated GMs:

1. Ken Holland
2. Brian Burke
3. Pierre Lacroix
4. Larry Pleau
5. Kevin Lowe

Worst GMs:

1. John Ferguson, Jr.
2. Jeremy Jacobs (heh, I mean Mike O'Connell)
3. Brian Burke
4. Glen Sather
5. Larry Pleau

no possible way you can include Larry Pleau among the worst GM's, IMO. He's rebuilt a completely destroyed franchise, stole Weight from Edmonton for nothing, swiped Jarmmo from the Sens... he's done a solid B- job. Not great but by no means among the 'worst' in the NHL.

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Old
08-04-2004, 12:16 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaraholic
no possible way you can include Larry Pleau among the worst GM's, IMO. He's rebuilt a completely destroyed franchise, stole Weight from Edmonton for nothing, swiped Jarmmo from the Sens... he's done a solid B- job. Not great but by no means among the 'worst' in the NHL.
i don't know how many times this has to be explained. doug weight said he would only go to the blues and one other team. roenick's crazy signing made it impossible for him to stay in edmonton, so the oilers were forced to trade him to the blues or the other team (detroit if i remember correctley). both these teams knew it too, so they didn't offer anything spectacular for weight. pleu didn't steal weight, weight gift-wrapped and hand-delivered himself to the blues dressing room door.

edit: how is stoll, reasoner, and our future #1 goalie jeff delaurier's nothing? that's pretty damn good


Last edited by creative giant: 08-04-2004 at 12:23 PM.
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Old
08-04-2004, 12:28 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creative giant
i don't know how many times this has to be explained. doug weight said he would only go to the blues and one other team. roenick's crazy signing made it impossible for him to stay in edmonton, so the oilers were forced to trade him to the blues or the other team (detroit if i remember correctley). both these teams knew it too, so they didn't offer anything spectacular for weight. pleu didn't steal weight, weight gift-wrapped and hand-delivered himself to the blues dressing room door.
Besides, getting Hecht and Reasoner as a return ain't that horrible. I believe Riesen was involved in it as well, but as a bust he's completely irrelevant.

But, here's an interesting statistical tidbit. Not saying Hecht is nearly as good, but it does show that the return wasn't as bad as some Blues fans like to think, much less consider it a rip off..

2003/2004

Jochen Hecht ... 64 games - 15 goals - 37 assists for 52 points. A ppg average of .81
Dug Weight ...... 75 games - 14 goals - 51 assists for 65 points. A ppg average of .86

Add in how Reasoner has nicely emerged as a fairly dependable and valueble 3rd line center and I don't see why it's such a major rip off. I do agree that the Blues won that deal, maybe even comfortably, but this wasn't no rip off.

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08-04-2004, 12:39 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
Besides, getting Hecht and Reasoner as a return ain't that horrible. I believe Riesen was involved in it as well, but as a bust he's completely irrelevant.

But, here's an interesting statistical tidbit. Not saying Hecht is nearly as good, but it does show that the return wasn't as bad as some Blues fans like to think, much less consider it a rip off..

2003/2004

Jochen Hecht ... 64 games - 15 goals - 37 assists for 52 points. A ppg average of .81
Dug Weight ...... 75 games - 14 goals - 51 assists for 65 points. A ppg average of .86

Add in how Reasoner has nicely emerged as a fairly dependable and valueble 3rd line center and I don't see why it's such a major rip off. I do agree that the Blues won that deal, maybe even comfortably, but this wasn't no rip off.
I agree.. Hecht has actually quietly emerged as a very solid player since his move to Buffalo.

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08-04-2004, 12:42 PM
  #115
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Old
08-04-2004, 01:42 PM
  #116
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If you think DT's overrated, that's cool, but I'd like to clear some things up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
- The entire Roman Cechmanek trade is looking awful. Getting arguably the worst starting goaltender in the league for a 2nd round pick, plus they get to pay him $3 million a season? Yuck.
Yeah, that was bad... although hindsight is 20/20. He did put up some great numbers in Philly.

Quote:
- Letting Palffy go (so it seems) is going to go down as one of the all-time dumbest moves in LA Kings history. The guy is worth more than they are offering. I think most Kings fans know it.
Every article is saying that Palffy is foolish for walking away from the $19.5 million contract. And if Palffy's worth so much, why hasn't anyone offered him more yet?

Quote:
- Aaron Miller's $4.5 million dollar contract makes him the Western equivilent to Darius Kasparitis. Perhaps the most overpaid #3/4 defenseman in the West, maybe the league (can't think of any who make more who are worse).
3.5, actually... I think. But I agree. Miller is one of the players I want to see go.

Quote:
- Bringing back Jozef Stumpel?

- Bringing in Anson Carter?
Stumpel really clicked with Palffy in his first stint, and pretty much was brought back to keep Palffy happy. But, yeah, they turned out to be bad trades, especially the Aulin for Carter deal.

Quote:
- Question: You have an injury prone team. What kind of player should you seek? If you guessed Martin Straka, maybe you can be a GM too!
His injuries were freak accidents, not stuff that happened on the ice. It was a win-win trade.

Quote:
- I think there is a lot more to the Kings injury woes than luck. His coach (and there's another overrated guy) refuses to ice a tough team. The Kings are routinely one of the softest teams in the league every single year. Taylor has yet to address the toughness issue.
Murray was a Jack Adams candidate up to the last two weeks of the season. He didn't use goons, but wants his players to have some modicum of skill when they step on the ice. He acquired Cowan for Brennan, he's kept Flinn (who has shown a bit of skill at prospect camp, minus 15 pounds), acquired Quintal and Kostopoulos. And recently he acquired Conroy; he's not very physical, but he's not nearly as soft as Charminpel (Stumpel). He also dumped Modry who was very soft, and I'm willing to bet Gleason will be playing regularly.

By the way, how many injuries did the Flames have during the playoffs? They are certainly a tough team with Oliwa, Iginla, et al. Didn't the Flyers have some injuries? Do the Kings need toughness? Yes. Do they need goons? No. Will teams play physical against them regardless of their toughness. YES.

Quote:
- The recent Conroy contract.. yikes. Sa'll I'll say.
I didn't want DT to offer anymore than $3 million. He overpayed by a couple hundred k, but far from a bad signing and far from gross overpayment.

Quote:
Just some examples. Then again, it's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
They always say there's no such thing as a wrong opinion There are such things as blatantly misinformed opinions or blatant *****ing opinions, but yours is neither and is always welcome.

In my opinion, DT has turned the club around a lot from the garbage he inherited in 97, and assembled a solid team that was ravaged by injuries. The good he's done for the Kings far outweighs the bad. I'd say he's a top 10 GM. Not one of the 5 best, but top 10 isn't unreasonable for him.

Carry on, this definitely is an interesting thread, minus the people getting butt hurt over people's opinions.

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Old
08-04-2004, 01:44 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhackpot
I'll give you 2.

Signing Roberts for over 3mil a year.

Signing Newey for over 3 mil a year.

Are you on drugs?

our Work horse isn't worth a 500 thousand dollar paycut?

our second best foreward next to sundin didn't deserve a raise to just above 3 million?

yeah ok.

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08-04-2004, 02:30 PM
  #118
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Best:
1) Big Lou
2) Bob Gainey
3) Jay Feaster
4) Ken Holland
5) Pierre Lacroix

Worst:
1) Mike Keenan
2) Mike Milbury
3) Mike O'Connell
4) Jim Rutherford
5) Glen Sather (before the trade deadline would've been bottom 3)
6) Al Coates :mad:

Underrated:
1) Bob Gainey
2) Bob Clarke
3) Darryl Sutter
4) Kevin Lowe
5) Glen Sather (really)

Overrated:
1) Dave Taylor
2) Doug Wilson
3) JFJ
Can't really think of anymore...

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08-04-2004, 08:16 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhackpot
I'll give you 2.

Signing Roberts for over 3mil a year.

Signing Newey for over 3 mil a year.

Yeah, one's the best assistant we've had since Douggy and the other brings the cup with him wherever he plays. I can see why Ferguson shouldn't've offered them that.

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08-04-2004, 08:34 PM
  #120
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Best:
Lou Lamerello (spl?)
Brian Burke (even unemployed he's up there)
Pierre Lacroix

Worst:
Glen Sather
Mike Keenan
Craig Button (remember him)
Mike Milbury

Underrated:
Darryl Sutter
Doug Riseborough
Ken Waddell

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08-04-2004, 09:39 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Uh, what has Pittsburgh become in the last 5 years if not inept salary dump after inept salary dump?

The Jagr deal was a wet fart. The Straka deal was hideous, and it came with the added caveat that Pittsburgh picks up part of his contract next season. The Zubov deal was atrocious, and New York got more for Alexei Kovalev as a rental than Pittsburgh did when they traded him. They have nothing to show for Shean Donovan, Wayne Primeau has become a great checker in San Jose (both these guys earned salaries which would have been in line with players in Pittsburgh this year)
Hardly "going down in a blazing spiral of stupidity," IMO. Pittsburgh's disastrous financial situation was the worst kept secret in the league at that time. CP didn't exactly have a lot of leverage, as other GMs knew he didn't have choice but to trade his players- holding onto them could've been a financial nightmare for the Pens.
As for the Rangers getting more for Kovalev and the Caps getting more for Jagr, both of those teams have a lot more finances (re:LEVERAGE) to work with; they could've afforded to keep those players around if they had to. CP's hands were tied.
The Straka deal wasn't that bad. Sergei Anshakov is shaping up to be a pretty good player. Also, how many games did Straka play for the Kings last year? And as for Primeau, see above. He was useless as a Pen and no one was sorry to see him gone.

Quote:
hiring his colour commentator as his head coach just reeks of Chicago/Carolina-type nepotism
Edzo's actually starting to show signs of being a pretty darn good coach someday soon. No mistake in hiring him, IMO.


Quote:
and he has failed to address team needs on defense for almost 5 years, now. He has the odd good move to his credit (getting Pirjeta, Jackman at the trade deadline; picking up Tarnstrom on waivers) but the Penguins over the last five years have been woefully run and it's not just because of finances.
Not true. Have you seen the Pens stable of defensive prospects? Arguably the best in the NHL. Wait 5 years until all that talent accumulated under CP is developed and then talk about their defense.
Additionally, I think categorizing the Pens as "woefully run" is pretty short sighted. CP was one of the first GMs to prepare his team for a rebuilding process, and in my opinion, his moves look even better these days given the current CBA uncertainty. He was doing everything in his power to keep the Pens solvent and in Pittsburgh. Personally, I think he's done a pretty good job and as a Pens fan, I'm very happy with his recent performance.

Quote:
Absolutely, I'll give him full credit for finding a hidden offensive gem on waivers who turned out to be supremely gifted offensively, and also one of the most injury-prone players in the league. I'll further give him credit for signing him to a moronic contract that he wasn't able to offload until he picked up some salary.
Are you talking about Straka here? What was so moronic about his contract? Especially after coming off of an 85 point year? You defended McPhee earlier for his "astute" handling of the Jagr trade (and I disagree with you here on what McPhee got. Beech, Sivek, & Lupaschuk > Carter and whoever else). How about the contract GMGM gave him? How much did the Caps wind up picking up of that one?

Quote:
I'll also give him full credit for letting Lang walk for $5.25 million, then watching him turn into an Art Ross contender while simultaneously giving Mario $5 million to injure his hip and eat poutine.
OK, maybe you can explain how CP could've done something to get the OWNER to take a paycut? CP's hands were tied on this one again. I'm fairly certain Mario had a large say in his salary. As for Lang, I like the guy, but $5.25 million was too much at the time. And it's not like CP could've afforded at the time. Also, I think you're underestimating how much being plucked off waivers and playing on a line with Kovy and Strake did for Lang's career. Without getting an oppurtunity like that from CP, there's NO WAY he contends for the Art Ross last year.

Quote:
Now, I'm exaggerating here, but IMO Lang and Straka are far from feathers in Craig Patrick's cap. Yes, he spotted their talent - and there is no denying he has one of the best eyes for offensive talent in the world, but being a GM is so much more than that.
I would say Straka and LAng are two of the biggest feathers in CP's cap. Lang was waiver fodder before CP came along and as Evilo mentioned earlier, the GM and organization deserve a lot of credit when players' careers turn around like that. Straka himself admits it.
CP has made a lot of really smart, solid deals in the past and the Francis and Samuelsson trade is probably the best in history. This guy's in the hall of fame as a builder for a reason. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt here, shall we?

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08-04-2004, 09:58 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vburnette
You defended McPhee earlier for his "astute" handling of the Jagr trade (and I disagree with you here on what McPhee got. Beech, Sivek, & Lupaschuk > Carter and whoever else). How about the contract GMGM gave him? How much did the Caps wind up picking up of that one?
If you are going to compare Jagr trades then you MUST take in account that when he left Pit he was a multiple Art Ross winner......and when leaving Washington he was putting up simply decent numbers......its fair to say his production on the ice was well well below what it was before his first trade

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08-05-2004, 12:42 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
Doug hasn't done as much to be put in any group, you can't label him anything just yet, let alone overrated, when not one person related to the Dallas Stars organisation has ever regret a single move of his. Well outside some draft picks but he isn't a scout, all he does is announce them. He has maintained Mike Modano and Marty Turco, signed Jere Lehtinen to a rediculously cheap and long term deal, and adresses our needs without hesitations. Yet you are praising your own Nonis strictly for having re-signed Naslund, your logic is completely flawed by I assume your bias and I would seriously like to hear some sound reasoning to back this up.

Bob made a few questional signees (Turgeon, Audette, Kamensky), or the lack there of (letting Hull walk), but he always tried to fix what didn't work out as soon as possible. He pretty much build the 1999 Stars championship team, I don't know how you can say he's overrated, not especially after he managed to turn Montreal into a contender the moment he arrived.
Before I go any further, let me say three things:

#1 - Trying to be a good GM isnt always enough. In other words, trying to improve the team through trade or trying to sign a guy does not mean too much outside of there being an effort. Hell, Mike Smith tried to be a good GM I'm sure.

#2 - The 'hindsight is 20/20' arguement doesn't wash. GM's are paid to look into crystal balls. The best ones are good at it, the worst ones aren't. You could say 'Yeah, Bertuzzi, McCabe, and a 3rd for Linden was bad for Milbury, but hindsight is 20/20!'. It's not an arguement worth making in defense of a GM.

#3 - Sometimes it's more about the moves a guy DOESN'T make more than the moves he DOES.

In regards to #3, Gainey applies well. While Bob did do a fine job turning an already good team into a Cup winner in 1999, I am not sure that your average run-of-the-mill GM could have screwed up that one. This is a team that had some absolutely terrific firepower before Gainey got there. I believe in situations like this, the test of a GM is to keep it together. This is why I respect Holland and Lacroix so much. Sure they inherited talent, but they kept it well oiled and in working condition.

Dallas unfortunatly showed signs of wear and tear well before Gainey left. While he locked up Modano and Lehtinen (no brainers, the team had money let's face it) and did a fantastic job with goaltenders, Gainey I felt did a very poor job greasing the wheels on the Stars. Since 1999, the Stars slowly got worse and worse, and the trend continues to this day. Guerin and Turgeon are now millstones around the necks of the Stars, neither of which are likely to be removed outside of getting maybe a decent second or third round draft pick for one or two teams in the league that could afford Guerin. Turgeon has no hope. Letting Nieuwendyk go wasn't so bad since they replaced him with Arnott, but they made a huge mistake letting Jamie Langenbrunner go, who has since been a key member of the Devils playoff run. I know you have argued this point before, M=G, but my point is that the Stars I don't believe have recovered from that Arnott deal, whereas the Devils won a cup the year after.

Then you look at some of the most recent moves. Jon Klemm? Is this really the guy who is going to replace Darian Hatcher?

Lastly, two things:

Can you name me any one steal either on the free agent market or in a trade that Gainey or Armstrong has made? Tell me if can't think of one outside of Phillipe Boucher, whom I'm sure the Kings would love to have back.

And finally, the GM is responsable for a teams' drafting & scouts. I don't believe you can say a GM has nothing to do with the amatuer scouting of a team, since it's his job to hire talented scouts. Poor drafting reflects on a GM, just as good drafting does. Just like we laud David Conte in New Jersey for drafting every year, so should we laud Lou for hiring the man.

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08-05-2004, 01:22 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
If you are going to compare Jagr trades then you MUST take in account that when he left Pit he was a multiple Art Ross winner......and when leaving Washington he was putting up simply decent numbers......its fair to say his production on the ice was well well below what it was before his first trade
I agree to an extent, but I still think the outcomes of the two deals favor CP more than GMGM since Jagr, while not the player he once was (or maybe will be again) is still one of the biggest marquee names the NHL has and because the Caps wound up eating so much of his salary.

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08-05-2004, 01:36 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Before I go any further, let me say three things:

#1 - Trying to be a good GM isnt always enough. In other words, trying to improve the team through trade or trying to sign a guy does not mean too much outside of there being an effort. Hell, Mike Smith tried to be a good GM I'm sure.

#2 - The 'hindsight is 20/20' arguement doesn't wash. GM's are paid to look into crystal balls. The best ones are good at it, the worst ones aren't. You could say 'Yeah, Bertuzzi, McCabe, and a 3rd for Linden was bad for Milbury, but hindsight is 20/20!'. It's not an arguement worth making in defense of a GM.

#3 - Sometimes it's more about the moves a guy DOESN'T make more than the moves he DOES.

In regards to #3, Gainey applies well. While Bob did do a fine job turning an already good team into a Cup winner in 1999, I am not sure that your average run-of-the-mill GM could have screwed up that one. This is a team that had some absolutely terrific firepower before Gainey got there. I believe in situations like this, the test of a GM is to keep it together. This is why I respect Holland and Lacroix so much. Sure they inherited talent, but they kept it well oiled and in working condition.

Dallas unfortunatly showed signs of wear and tear well before Gainey left. While he locked up Modano and Lehtinen (no brainers, the team had money let's face it) and did a fantastic job with goaltenders, Gainey I felt did a very poor job greasing the wheels on the Stars. Since 1999, the Stars slowly got worse and worse, and the trend continues to this day. Guerin and Turgeon are now millstones around the necks of the Stars, neither of which are likely to be removed outside of getting maybe a decent second or third round draft pick for one or two teams in the league that could afford Guerin. Turgeon has no hope. Letting Nieuwendyk go wasn't so bad since they replaced him with Arnott, but they made a huge mistake letting Jamie Langenbrunner go, who has since been a key member of the Devils playoff run. I know you have argued this point before, M=G, but my point is that the Stars I don't believe have recovered from that Arnott deal, whereas the Devils won a cup the year after.
All this is Gainey, but you seem to leave out his positive's. How about his deals for those supposedly "over-the-hill" veterans he pulled before winning it in 1999. Garbonneau, Skrudland, Keane, Muller, etc. Those became essential and major parts of our franchise's only ring. Or perhaps the deal that pretty much won us the Stanley Cup, trading Jarome Iginla for Joe Nieuwendyk. The Arnott deal I still like. We also got a 1st round pick from it which we turned into Trevor Daley I believe. Jason Arnott and Trevor Daley for a declining 37 year old center (whom I seriously adore btw) and a player that worked his way out of Dallas is not a deal I mind nowadays. I admitted that Bob made some questionable moves, but he dealt some of those away as soon as he noticed things weren't working out the way he had planned. Walking Brett Hull was the biggest mistake he ever made though, we never ever found a fitting partner for Modano anymore and were forced to be big spenders in the 2001 market on serach for a first line RW'er. Then he headed back to Montreal and left Armstrong stuck with a 7.5 million dollar Pierre Turgeon and near double digit making Bill Guerin. Leaving Armstrong with little financial flexibility. Locking up Jere Lehtinen and Marty Turco long-term, re-siging Modano of who he currently is in talks with to offer a career ending contract with only so much to work with IS a difficult thing to do. It was Gainey who always had the money to play with, Armstrong never had that luxery. You seem to mix up their situations..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Then you look at some of the most recent moves. Jon Klemm? Is this really the guy who is going to replace Darian Hatcher?
Why did we need to replace Derian? That season we had four, maybe five top 4 defensemen (Numminen, Boucher, Zubov, Klemm and maybe, just maybe Richard Matvichuk). Considering how he wanted a long term deal and his current play, I'm glad with how things have panned out. If we had kept him and had given him the 5 year 40 million dollar contract he demanded for, we'd never been able to re-sign Marty Turco, Jere Lehtinen or Mike Modano. There comes a point where a GM has to make crucial decisions that could either prove to be in his advantage of in his disadvantage, and I'd like to think that this worked out in his advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Lastly, two things:

Can you name me any one steal either on the free agent market or in a trade that Gainey or Armstrong has made? Tell me if can't think of one outside of Phillipe Boucher, whom I'm sure the Kings would love to have back.

And finally, the GM is responsable for a teams' drafting & scouts. I don't believe you can say a GM has nothing to do with the amatuer scouting of a team, since it's his job to hire talented scouts. Poor drafting reflects on a GM, just as good drafting does. Just like we laud David Conte in New Jersey for drafting every year, so should we laud Lou for hiring the man.
Like I said, you can't mention Army and Gainey together cause both their situations were completely different. But as for Gainey:

- Signing Ed Belfour
- Signing Brett Hull
- Getting Sydor for I believe 2 enforcers (Churla and Zmolek)
- Getting Zubov for a declining Kevin Hatcher
- Aquiring Ludwig, Keane, Garbonneau, Skrudland.

Having drafted:

- Jere Lehtinen
- Jarome Iginla
- Derian Hatcher
- Richard Matvichuk
- Marty Turco
- Brenden Morrow
- Jamie Langenbrunner
- Steve Ott
- Antti Miettinen
- Niko Kapanen

Bob Gainey pretty much set our core and dealt for assets that proved to be of major importance during our Stanley Cup run. How can you possibly question his management goes beyond me, you seem to focuss more on his con's (Turgeon) rather than his overwhelming pro's.

As for Armstrong, well he never had as much money to spend as his hands were tied due to Pierre Turgeon, but he still managed to form one of the better line-ups in the NHL over the past few years since he's been General Manager.

- Getting Stu Barnes for a 2nd and Michael Ryan.
- Getting Jon Klemm and a 4th for a 2nd and Stephane Robidas, whom he had picked from waivers earlier.
- Signing Don Sweeney who became one of our better defenseman.
- Signing Hobey Baker winner Junior Lessard
- Trading for Jaroslav Svoboda. A low-risk, high reward deal.
- Dealing one of our 5 goalie prospects to adress a bigger need, Cash for Belle.

Not much can be said about his drafting abilities since he's only been in charge 2 years now. But most of his picks like Loui Eriksson, Johan Fransson and Trevor Daley are looking very bright.

Not saying Armstrong is a stud, but to say he's overrated goes beyond me. You discredit him for moves you're are creditting your own GM with. Plus, I'd like to think Gainey is a top 5 GM, not one of the most overrated.


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